_l H G H E U S 5 SEPTEMBER. 1996 CONVERSATION WITH SUN RA,CHRIS CAPERS,JOHN HINDS,AND PETER HINDS. OAKLAND,CA...MAY 3,1990... CHRIS CAPERS:THE OTHER THING THAT I'M REALLY,THE TWO THINGS THAT I'M REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT,AND JOTHAN (CALLINS) SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO DO BUT JOTHAN DIDN'T GET AROUND TO DOING IT,IS REALLY WRITE THE BOOK ON SONNY.THAT'S THE OTHER THING BECAUSE,YOU KNOW, FROM EVERY ONE THAT HAS BEEN AROUND HIM AND THROUGH THE BAND THAT'S AN ENOURMOUS AMOUNT OF INFORMATION AND PERSPECTIVE THAT WE HAVE TOWARD HIM.A LOT OF PERSONAL STUFF BUT AT THE SAME TIME... SUN RA:UNINTELLIGIBLE IN THE OFFICE...AND JOTHAN COULDN'T FIND IT.A LOT OF POEMS AND THINGS THAT WERE VERY IMPORTANT.THEY LOOKED EVERYWHERE.THEY COULDN'T FIND IT. CC:YOU'RE SAYING JOTHAN STARTED IT? SR:NO.HE WAS LOOKING FOR IT FOR ME. CC:WAIT A MINUTE.WHAT WAS THAT AGAIN?'CAUSE I WAS TALKING ABOUT A BOOK BEING WRITTEN ABOUT... SR:IT'S ALREADY WRITTEN.I KEPT A DIARY,YOU KNOW.THEY CAN'T FIND IT. CC:OH!YOU HAD A DIARY DONE ALREADY.YOU KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN?SOMEBODY STOLE IT AND EVERYTHING IS GOING TO COME OUT.SEE, THE OTHER THING IS TO HAVE THAT MUSIC THAT HE HAS PUBLISHED AND SOLD.SO THAT WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE...IT CAN BE PLAYED FROM...EVERY- ONE FROM KIDS TO SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA. SR:CAN'T BE DOING IT.I DELIBERATELY DESTROYED IT SO IT WOULDN'T EVER BE DONE.WHOEVER MISSED THAT I DID IT DELIBERATELY.'CAUSE THEY DIDN'T TREAT ME RIGHT SO THEY CAN'T.THEY'LL NEVER HAVE IT. IT'S AN IMPORTANT PART OF HISTORY THAT'S GONE SINCE THEY WOULDN'T PAY ME.SO I DID A CURSE.I DESTROYED IT.SO I WOULDN'T HAVE IT. CC:YOU DON'T WANT THE MUSIC PUBLISHED? SR:NO!I DON'T WANT IT OUT THERE.I DON'T WANT NOBODY TO HEAR IT. THAT'S 'CAUSE IT'S SPIRIT MUSIC.IT EVEN DEALS IN IMMORTALITY. I DON'T FEEL FOLKS HAVE A RIGHT TO THAT.THEY DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE FOREVER SO THEY DON'T NEED TO KNOW ABOUT WHAT I KNOW.THEY DON'T NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT.'CAUSE THEY DON'T DESERVE IT...I'M NOT INTERESTED IN HUMANITY NO MORE.IF I HAD MY WAY I UNINTELLIGIBLE AND BLOW IT UP.I'D BLOW UP...PUSH THE BUTTON.GET RID OF THE WHOLE PLANET 'CAUSE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED IT'S A WASTE OF TIME.I'VE SEEN THEM KILL TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE WORTH- WHILE. CC:I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING SONNY AND PARTIALLY I AGREE WITH YOU.BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THIS IS GOING TO BE HERE.AND WHAT YOU GOT YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IT'S GOING TO HELP. SR:I DON'T WANT TO HELP THIS PLANET.I WANT TO FORGET I EVER KNEW ABOUT IT. CC:THAT'S SOMETHING JUNE(TYSON)AND I SPOKE ABOUT.JUNE SAYS SHE'S READY TO LEAVE AND I SAID I'M.READY TO LEAVE,TOO. SR:DID YOU SEE THAT PICTURE?THAT'S A PICTURE THEY HAVE NOT SEEN. JOHN HINDS:I HOPE YOU GET OUT ALIVE. SR:YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THAT PICTURE,HAVE YOU. CC:WHAT'S THAT?WHICH ONE? SR:IN THE PICTURE I WALKED TOWARD THE SEASHORE AND YOU SAW MY FOOT PRINTS AND THEN THE WAVES CAME AND BRUSHED THE FOOT PRINTS OUT.I MADE IT IN NEW YORK.A SEMI—DOCUMENTARY. PH:IS THIS A VIDEO?OR PHOTOGRAPHS? SR:IT WAS A MOVIE. CC:I THINK I REMEMBER IT VAGUELY.IT'S COMING BACK TO ME. SR:AND I WALKED TOWARD THE SEASHORE.YOU SAW THE FOOT PRINTS AND THEN THE WAVES CAME AND BRUSHED OUT THE FOOT PRINTS SO YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. CC:YOU DID IT IN THE 70's? BACK THERE SOME TIME.I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE NAME OF THE MOVIE. THERE'S ANOTHER THING THEY CAN'T TRACE UP.AND ALSO THERE'S A RADIO PLAY,TOO.I WROTE THE MUSIC TO THAT.A PLAY CALLED A STRANGER. PH:WHEN WAS THAT? SR:ABOUT '69 OR SOMETHINB LIKE THAT.A RADIO PRODUCTION CALLED THE STRANGER. PH:IS THAT THE STRANGER BY ALBERT CAMUS? SR:IT WASN'T NO PRAGRAM.IT WAS A SPECIAL GOVRNMENT SPONSORED MOVIE.NEW YORK CITY.STATE OF NEW YORK.THAT'S LOST,TOO.THERE'S A LOT OF GAPS IN THERE.SO I COULDN'T EVEN BEGIN TO TELL THE THINGS THAT(ARE)MISSING. ' JH:DIDN'T YOU WRITE SOME THINGS FOR BASIE IN THE 40'S? SOMETHING FOR A FLOOR SHOW OR SOMETHING. SR:NO.FLETCHER... JH:I KNOW.THE DELISA. BUT I THOUGHT I HEARD AT ONE POINT THAT YOU DID SOMETHING WITH BASIE ON SOME PROGRAM THAT HE WAS ON. SR:I WROTE SOME THINGS WITH CLARENCE WILLIAMS Anp HE WAY BACK THERE.BUT HE STOLE IT,THOUGH. JH:NOW,YOU'VE GOT TO WONDER WHERE THAT STUFF IS;TOO. SR:MY FIRST COMPOSITION WAS SENT TO HIM AND HE STOLE THEM. CC:WHO'S THAT?CLARENCE WILLIAMS? SR:ONE OF THEM WAS NAMED CHOCOLATE AVENUE.BUT THEY DON'T PAY THE ¥g§$C NOW.SO YOU'D HAVE TO REALLY HAVE TO RESEARCH IT TO FIND JH:YOU'RE NOT KIDDING.I HAVE ONE OF HIS ALBUMS. .SR:THEN I'VE GOT SEVERAL PSEUDONYMS,TOO.SO THEY REALLY CAN'T TRACE.I GOT A LOT OF SONGS OUT THERE WITH OTHER NAMES.SEVERAL NAMES. JH:CAN YOU REMEMBER THOSE NAMES? CC:HE AIN'T GOING TO TELL US TODAY. SR:I DELIBERATELY HID IT.SO THEY WOULDN'T KNOW.'CAUSE I KNEW NO ONE WAS GOING TO TREAT ME RIGHT ON THIS PLANET.SO I TOOK EVERY- THING AND JUST HID IT.THEY DID EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT THEY WAS GOING TO DO.SO I WAS TRYING TO PLAY THE LOW PROFILE AND MY BEST MUSIC HAS NEVER BEEN PUT ON A RECORD.IT'S NOT ON A RECORD.THAT'S WHAT MICHAEL ANDERSON WAS TRYING TO DO 'CAUSE HE KNOW THAT.HE'S TRYING TO PUT IT TOGETHER. CC:MICHAEL WHO? SR:MICHAEL ANDERSON.HE GOT A RADIO SHOW IN NEW JERSEY.HE THE ONLY ONE TO PLAY MY MUSIC CONSISTENTLY. CC:WHAT PART OF NEW JERSEY? SR:SOMEWHERE IN NEW JERSEY.HE HAS A SPECIAL JAZZ SHOW.HE PLAYED WITH THE BAND,TOO,AT ONE TIME.PLAYED DRUMS. CC:THAT'S WHEN RODNEY WAS IN THERE?RONALD WAS IN THERE? SR:I DON"T EVEN REMEMBER.I KNOW HE PLAYED WITH US.JOHN(GILMORE) KNOWS THOSE THINGS. JH:THAT WOULD BE QUITE A LIST TO DRAW UP ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WHO HAVE PLAYED WITH YOU. CC:IT'S ENOURMOUS.' JH:ALMOST NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GET ALL THESE PEOPLE 'CAUSE I KEEP HEARING ABOUT... CC:ROLAND KIRK WAS IN THE BAND.PHAROAH SANDERS WAS IN THE BAND. JH:I KNOW THAT.BUT ROLAND KIRK?I NEVER HEARD OF THAT. SR:HE NEVER WAS IN THIS BAND. CC:ROLAND WASN'T IN THIS BAND? SR:NO. CC:IN CHICAGO?HE WASN'T IN THE... SR:DIFFERENT DIMENSION.HE WASN'T IN THIS BAND. JH:NEVER PLAYED WITH YOU. SR:NO. CC:I THOUGHT I HEARD THAT IN THE SIXTIES WHEN YOU WAS ON THIRD STREET... SR:N0.0NE TIME HE DELIBERATELY JUMPED UP THERE TO STOP US.TO PLAY AND JAM WITH US.THAT WAS IN NEW YORK CITY.HE WANTED TO STOP US 'CAUSE,YOU KNOW,THE CROWD WAS LIKING US SO HE JUMPED UP THERE,GOT ON THE MICROPHONE AND JUST TOOK...IN TO THE SHOW. CC:I HEARD YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT IT. SR:BUT HE DIDN'T GET UP THERE FOR UNINTELLIGIBLE.HE JUST JUMPED UP THERE 'CAUSE HE WAS...AT THE VANGUARD,I THINK...SOMEPLACE. CC:'CAUSE I REMEMBER THAT FROM THE SIXTIES.ROLAND KIRK SAYING HE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE BAND.I THOUGHT HE WAS IN THE BAND. HE WASN'T IN CHICAGO WITH YOU? SR:DIFFERENT DIMENSION.HE WAS AN EARTHMAN.I DON'T HAVE NO EARTHMEN IN MY BAND.EVERYBODY IN MY BAND WAS CAREFULLY CHOSEN FOR THE SPIRIT CONTENT OF THE FUTURE.HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY...HE EVEN TRIED TO STEAL MY NAME UNINTELLIGIBLE.CALLED HIMSELF RAHSHAAN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.AND COLTRANE CAME ALONG AND HE TRIED TO STEAL IT,TOO.BUT THIS IS SPIRIT MUSIC.IT'S VERY DANGEROUS FOR THEM TO DO THAT.IT'S QUITE DANGEROUS.OPEN THEIR MINDS UP TO AVENUES OF DANGER WHERE THEY CAN'T CONTROL IT. CC:THAT'S FOR CERTAIN!(LAUGHS) JH:UNFORTUNATELY,THEY'RE BOTH GONE AND THAT SAYS SOMETHING I GUESS. ‘ CC:AND SONNY STILL BE A KICKIN',RIGHT? SR;I'M STILL TRYING TO PLAY MY LOW PROFILE.IT'S THE ONLY FUTURE THAT I WANT.BECAUSE ALL THESE TAPES THAT THE WORLD SHOULD HEAR THAY WILL NEVER HEAR THEM.IN THE FIRST PLACE,ABRAHAM (ALTON ABRAHAM)GOT A LOT OF THEM LOCKED UP IN A VAULT. HE WON'T EVEN GIVE THEM TO ME.HE SAY I DON'T NEED THEM...DON'T DESERVE TO HEAR THEM.AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT BANK THEY IN. JH:AT LEAST THEY'RE SAFE,I GUESS.YOU WOULD WANT TO HEAR THEM YOURSELF. SR:I DON'T THINK THAT WAY NO MORE.THE WORLD AIN'T LIKE WHAT I'D LIKE FOR IT TO BE.IT AIN'T WHAT I THOUGHT IT WAS.IF I HAD KNOWN WHAT IT WAS I NEVER WOULD HAVE PLAYED.PERSONALLY,I THINK THAT JESUS DECIDED HE WOULD RATHER BE DEAD THAN HAVE CONTROL OF THIS PLANET.I THINK THAT'S WHAT HE DID.WHEN HE SAW WHAT WAS HAPPENING..THE WHOLE WORLD...THEM PEOPLE WAS READY TO PUT PALMS IN HIS PATH AND EVERYTHING TO MAKE HIM KING.HE PREFERRED TO GO TO THE CROSS 'CAUSE HE FELT IT WASN'T WORTHWHILE TO DO NOTHIN' LIKE THAT.I THINK THEY GOT THE WHOLE THING WRONG.HE DELIBERATELY COMMITTED SUICIDE.HE FIGURED IT WAS BETTER TO BE DEAD THAN TO HAVE CONTROL OF PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WASN'T RIGHT.THEN THEY TURN IT AROUND LIKE HE DIED TO SAVE SINNERS.BUT UNINTELLIGIBLE HE DIED TO GET AWAY FROM THEM.ANYWAY,IT'S THEIR WORLD.AIN'T NONE OF GOD'S WORLD.AIN'T NONE OF SATAN'S WORLD.NEITHER WANT IT. CC:THAT'S WHAT I SAID THE OTHER...I WAS SAYING THE OTHER DAY.I SAID EVEN SATAN WENT UP TO HEAVEN AND GOD WENT DOWN TO HELL AND THEY LEFT THIS SUCKER. SR:I CAN'T FIND A COPY OF THAT PAPER Y'ALL GAVE ME ABOUT THE BLACK BONES. PH:I'LL BRING ONE TOMORROW.I'VE GOT A FEW AT HOME. CC:WHAT WAS THAT? PH:IT WAS AN ARTICLE I SAW IN THE PAPER TWO OR THREE DAYS AGO AND,APPARENTLY,BLACK MEN ARE BEST SUITED FOR LONG SPACE TRAVEL. FOR INSTANCE,GOING TO MARS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. CC:I FIGURE THIS.DON'T TAKE IT OFFENSIVELY BUT THEY PROBOBLY SET- TING US UP TO DO THE DIRTY WORK. JH:YOU GOTTA BE WARY ABOUT THAT. CC:THE OTHER THING,AS HE SAID,WE ALL SPACE PEOPLE. PH:THEY'RE DOING SOME TESTS DOWN THERE IN HOUSTON WHERE THEY'RE GIVING WHITE MEN...IT SAID WOMEN,DUE TO BONE STRUCTURE,AREN'T GOOD FOR LONG... CC:I KNOW THEY WERE SAYING YOUNG BLACK MEN.I WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT IN THE CAR WHEN YOU(SUN RA)WAS SLEEPING.WHEN WE WAS GOING FROM PORTLAND FROM SEATTLE.I WAS TALKING WITH ELSON(NASCIAMENTO), TELLING ELSON,FRED AND CURTIS(ROCK)ABOUT IT. PH:SO NOW THEY'RE ALL WORRIED.THEY'RE TRYING TO GET A DRUG SO THEY CAN SEND SOME WHITE PEOPLE TO MARS.(CHRIS CAPERS,JOHN HINDS AND PETER HINDS BREAK IN TO LAUGHTER.) CONVERSATION WITH CHRIS CAPERS,JOHN HINDS AND PETER HINDS........ OAKLAND,CA...MAY 3,1990... CHRIS CAPERS:I THINK I TOLD YOU THIS BEFORE.I DIDN'T COME UP PLAYING AVANTE—GARDE.I WENT THROUGH THE REGULAR TRADITIONAL THINGS.DIZ WAS REALLY MY MAIN INFLUENCE AND BROWNIE WAS SECON- DARY.SO I LISTENED TO A LOT OF THEIR SOLOS.AFTER I LEFT SONNY, YOU GET STIGMATIZED IN WORKING THE AVANTE—GARDE.I BECAME PRONE TO WORKING WITH A LOT OF THEM. JOHN HINDS:WHO ELSE HAVE YOU WORKED WITH?ARCHIE SHEPP? CC:NO.I MISSED SEVERAL GIGS.ARCHIE WANTED ME IN HIS BAND.I'M GOING BACK TO THE SIXTIES,NOW.HE WANTED ME IN THE BAND BUT WE NEVER REALLY HOOKED UP.I ALWAYS,SOMEHOW,MISSED A REHEARSAL OR HE MISSED A DATE TO GET ME TO DO A REHEARSAL WHEN HE WAS JUST COMING OUT.SO THE GUYS THAT I EVENTUALLY ENDED UP WORKING WITH, AFTER I LEFT SONNY,WAS MAINLY PHAROAH SANDERS,DEWWY REDMAN, SONNY RED,RASHIED ALI...I HAVE QUITE A FEW RECORDINGS WITH RASHIED ALI THAT DIDN'T COME OUT.WITH SONNY MURRAY AND PHAROAH... THERE ARE THINGS ON COLUMBIA AND IMPULSE THAT THEY DIDN'T RELEASE.IT WAS A JOHN HAMOND PRODUCTION.AND EVEN ON TOP OF THAT JOHN HAMOND WANTED TO BRING ME IN THERE TO RECORD.BUT IT DIDN'T WORK OUT.ON THAT THING WITH COLUMBIA...A LOT OF GUYS WAS ON THERE.DEWEY WAS ON THERE...DON PULLEN,JUNIE BOOTH...THE OTHER MAJOR DATE WAS WITH PHAROAH.I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ON HIS SECOND RECORD DATE AND I MISSED THAT BECAUSE I THEN BECAME INVOLVED WITH THE UNINTELLIGIBLE YOUTH BAND.AND I WAS REALLY TOO OLD FOR THE BAND BUT I LOOKED YOUNG AS YOU CAN SEE.THEY WERE TAKING THE GUYS IN ABOUT EIGHTEEN OR NINETTEN.SO I WAS TWENTY SIX WHEN I WENT IN THERE.THEY WERE ONLY DEALING WITH YOUNG GUYS.'CAUSE REED TAYLOR LIKED ME AND I GOT INTO THE BAND 'CAUSE I COULD SOLO BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THERE.BUT I WENT IN THERE FOR SECTION WORK,READING.BECAUSE I HAD NO SECTION WORK PLAYING FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME.SO THAT'S WHY I WENT IN THERE AND IT WAS A STIPEND.SO I GOT THE STIPEND AND I MISSED THE REHEARSAL WITH PHAROAH AND HE WAS VERY UPSET ABOUT IT.HE WAS ACTUALLY MAD.I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE FOR THESE REHEARSALS AND MAKE THE DATE WITH HIM AND I REALLY WANTED TO MAKE THE DATE WITH HIM 'CAUSE HE WAS GETTING POPULAR THEN.SO THAT BLEW (IT) FOR ME.THAT WENT DOWN THE TUBES FOR ME.AND THEN LATER ON,ABOUT THE 70'S,EARLY 70'S,HE CALLED ME IN TO DO A DATE AND THE GRUBB BROTHERS WAS ON THERE.CECIL MCBEE WAS ON THE DATE.WHO WAS THE OTHER ALTO PLAYER? PETER HINDS:BYARD LANCASTER? CC:NO,BYARD WASN'T ON IT.I WORKED IN A BAND WITH BYARD LANCASTER...THAT WAS TED DANIEL'S BAND ENERGY.I WENT INTO THAT BAND AFTER I LEFT SONNY IN 76.1 WORKED IN THAT BAND FOR JUST MONDAY NIGHTS.ONE OF MY MAIN PROBLEMS WAS THAT I WAS BURNED OUT. JH:TRAVELLING? CC:NO.I WAS BURNED OUT WHEN I WENT WITH HIM(SUN RA).I CAN GET TO THAT.THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.WHAT HAPPENED WAS WHEN ON PHAROAH'S DATE WITH IMPULSE... A PH:SECOND ALBUM? CC:NO.HOWEVER,THE THREE OF US ENDED UP DOING JUST A TRACK TOGETHER.SO IT WAS PHAROAH,WOODY(SHAW),AND MYSELF.WE WERE ALL PLAYING TOGETHER.PHAROAH TOLD ME.HE SAID IT WASN'T COMPLETED OR SOMETHING.I HAVE NO IDEA.SO THE ONLY THINGS I RECORDED CAME OUT WITH SONNY. PH:WHERE DID YOU FIRST HEAR OF SUN RA? CC:PHAROAH...SEE I WAS LIVING AT TRANE'S(JOHN COLTRANE).I KNEW TRANE.AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS... PH;WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? CC:I MET JOHN AT COPA CITY.FIRST TIME I SAW HIM I WAS ABOUT SEVENTEEN,EIGHTEEN YEARS OLD.THREE FRIENDS OF US...WE WENT DOWNTOWN TO HEAR SOME JAZZ.THIS IS ABOUT 57,58.57 I THINK.I'M ORIGINALLY A REED PLAYER.I STARTED ON CLARINET,FLUTE AND ALTO AND AT THAT TIME I WAS STILL PLAYING CLARINET WHEN I FIRST SAW JOHN.BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS...I WENT OVER TO THE CIRCLE IN THE END(?)TO HEAR GERRY MULLIGAN AND TWO OF MY FRIENDS WENT TO HEAR MILES AND THEN AFTER GERRY MULLIGAN I FLEW OVER TO THE VANGUARD AND I CAME IN JUST ON THE TAIL END OF THE LAST SET ON THE LAST NUMBER AND THAT'S WHEN I FIRST SAW TRANE.THEN I MET HIM AT COPA CITY ABOUT TWO YEARS LATER,I THINK.I WAS ALREADY INTO PLAYING TRUMPET THEN.WHAT I ENDED UP DOING WAS I ALWAYS WANTED TO PLAY TRUMPET 'CAUSE I WAS INFLUENCED BY LOUIS ARMSTRONG.AND I COULDN'T GET A HOLD OF AN INSTRUMENT SO WHAT I DID...I OPTED FOR WHAT I COULD GET MY HANDS ON.MY MOTHER BOUGHT ME THE CLARINET.AND I WAS MAKING SESSIONS ON THE ALTO SAX.I WAS PROFICIENT IN THE INSTRUMENT TO GET AROUND IT BUT I STILL NEEDED TO KNOW EACH AND EVERY SCALE BECAUSE THE CLARINET GAVE ME THE PROFICIENCY.THEN I HAD TO GET INTO MY CHANGES.SO I WAS MAKING A FEW SESSIONS ON ALTO BUT WHO I WAS HANGING OUT WITH KEPT PUSHING ME AND PUSHING ME SO I WENT IN MIDSTREAM...AND WENT TO TRUMPET WHEN I WAS EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN TEARS OLD WHICH WAS LATE.SO I LOOKED AT THIS AND I SAID, 'DAMN,I'M NOT GROING TO BE OUT HERE PLAYING 'TILL I'M ABOUT TWENTY SEVEN OR SO.SO WHAT I DID WAS PRACTICE LIKE A MANIAC.I PRACTICED LIKE A DAMN FOOL.I WAS LIVING AT TRANE'S.I COULD PRACTICE ANY TIME I WANT. JH:WHERE WAS HE LIVING? CC:HE WAS LIVING IN QUEENS ON MEXICO STREET.I LIVED ON QUEENS OVER IN SPRINGFIELD GARDENS AND HE LIVED OVER IN ST.ALBANS.NOT THAT FAR APART.AND I MET HIM BY WORKING IN BLOOMINGDALE'S PART TIME AND HIS WIFE'S NEICE,BETTY,WORKED IN BLOOMINGDALE'S.AND GETTING TO KNOW HER...I WOULD GO BY HER HOUSE AND THEN ONE DAY NAIMA SHOWED UP.I DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS TRANE'S WIFE AND SHE SAID COME ON TO THE HOUSE.WHEN HE CAME OFF THE ROAD I MET HIM OFFICIALLY 'CAUSE I HAD SPOKEN TO HIM AT COPA CITY BRIEFLY. BUT NOW I MET HIM OFFICIALLY,IN HIS HOUSE WITH ERIC DOLPHY. I'M YOUNG,TWENTY,TWENTY ONE AND IF I WAS PLAYING ERIC AND MARSHALL(ALLEN)WOULD HAVE BEEN MY INFLUENCES. PH.THIS WAS 61? CC:YEAH.50,61. JH:DID YOU KNOW ERIC DOLPHY VERY WELL? CC:AFTER MEETING HIM AT TRANE'S I GOT TO KNOW HIM WELL.I USED TO HANG OUT WITH HIM.A COUPLE TIMES HE USED TO TAKE ME AROUND. CLIFFORD JORDAN'S HOUSE...SO WE(JOHN COLTRANE)EVENTUALLY GOT CLOSE.SO WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER I SHOULD CHAUFFEUR THE BAND OR STAY AT THE HOUSE WITH NEET(?)AND TONY. THAT WAS NEET'S DAUGHTER.NOT HIS DAUGHTER.NEET-DIDN'T HAVE NO KIDS WITH HIM.THAT'S HOW ALICE GOT INTO THE PICTURE.THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT CAME UP IN THE BOOK THAT WAS OUT OF IT BE- CAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT CAME THERE TO THE HOUSE AND WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK AND NEET TOLD THEM TO SPEAK TO ME AND AIN'T A DAMN ONE OF THEM SAID A WORD TO ME.IT CAME ALL DOWN TO...HE'S INSIGNIFICANT.I'M NOT A BIG NAME.I'M A STRUGGLING TRUMPET PLAYER. THEY JUST PASSED ME BY AND STILL HELD CONVERSATIONS WITH HER. AND SHE TOLD THEM SPECIFICALLY;'YOU-WANT TO KNOW ABOUT JOHN? TALK TO HIM.'YOU SEE,THE THING IS,SHE TOLD ME A LOT OF PERSONAL THINGS.AND I SPENT TIME WITH HIM TALKING AND A GREAT DEAL MORE TIME WITH HER(TALKING)ABOUT HIM AND A WHOLE LOT OF STORIES IN THE BUSINESS.SO THEY BLEW(IT).STORIES ABOUT MILES AND JOHN LEAVING THE BAND.HOWEVER,I WAS ABLE TO PRACTICE ANY TIME I WANTED TO PRACTICE.FIRST IT WAS A LITTLE FUNNY.HE DECIDED THAT I WOULD STAY THERE AT THE HOUSE BECAUSE THERE WAS NO MAN AROUND. THERE WAS NO MALE PERSON AROUND WHEN HE WAS OUT OF TOWN AND HE WAS OUT OF TOWN FOR TWO,THREE MONTHS.HE WAS ON THE ROAD.BOOKED. FOUR HOURS.EIGHT HOURS.SIX HOURS. I WAS DOING IT(PRACTICING). 'CAUSE I WAS TRYING TO PLAY CATCH UP.AND WHEN HE CAME HOME I WOULDN'T PRACTICE.I WAS SCARED THE FIRST TIME.SO NEET CALLED ME IN THE KITCHEN AND SAID,'LOOK.YOU EITHER GOING TO PLAY THAT HORN OR GET OUT OF HERE.'AND I SAID,'JOHN IS HERE.'SHE SAID,'THAT AIN'T GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.'IN A SENSE SHE WAS SAYING TO ME HE KNOWS WHERE YOU'RE AT.SO JUST GO ON AND PRACTICE AND, BASICALLY,I WOULD PRACTICE WHEN HE WAS THERE.I WOULD JUST GO INTO THE BASEMENT,MAYBE,AND PUT THE MUTE IN THE HORN AND PRACTICE BECAUSE,I KNOW YOU'RE TAPING THIS,RIGHT? JH:OH YEAH.SURE. CC:WHEN HE CAME HOME HE WENT STRAIGHT UPSTAIRS AND PRACTICED ALL DAY LONG.SEE,HE HAD SOMETHING...HIM AND SONNY HAD SOMETHING SIMILAR.WHERE SONNY WOULD REHEARSE YOU FROM EIGHT IN THE MORNING UNTILL TWELVE AT MIDNIGHT JOHN WOULD PRACTICE FROM EIGHT OR NINE IN THE MORNING UNTILL IT WAS TIME FOR HIM TO GO TO THE GIG AND I'M NOT LYING!I SAW IT AND HEARD IT.I HEARD HIM PRACTICE THINGS THAT LEFT ME BAFFLED FOR A WHILE UNTILL I USED TO SIT OUT THERE IN THE BACK STEPS OF THE GARDEN AND HE WOULD BE IN THE BACK BED- ROOM PRACTICING AND I WOULD JUST SIT AND I WOULD JUST SIT AND LISTEN TO HIM.I'D SAY,'WHAT THE HELL IS HE DOING?"CAUSE HE WOULD STAY UP THERE AND...(SINGS)HE WOULD DO(SINGS)FOR A WHOLE HALF HOUR,HE WAS DOING TWO THINGS.HE WAS EXERCISING FINGERS.HE WAS EXERCISING PITCH AND TONE AND RUNNING A LINE AND THINKINK ABOUT WHAT OTHER LINES WOULD RUN INTO THAT.HOW I FOUND OUT...EVERY TIME HE WOULD COME IN TO TOWN I WOULD GO TO THE FIRST GIG WITH HIM AND THE LAST ONE AND I WOULD HEAR THE SAME LINES CONNECTING UP.SO WHEN GUYS LIKE...I HEAR OTHER GUYS SAY THEY DON'T PLAY THE SAME THING OVER AGAIN.AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A VARIATION ON THAT THING WHETHER IT'S A TWO BAR REPEAT OR A ONE BAR PHRASE YOU RUN.YOU'RE GOING TO REPEAT IT SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE LINE.AND IT'S DONE.I'VE HEARD HIM DO IT FROM PRACTICING.GOING UP ON THE BAND- STAND AND DOING IT.'CAUSE I WAS THERE AT THE HOUSE WHERE I COULD LISTEN.AND I WAS THE ONLY ONE AT THE HOUSE THERE.HOW I MET SONNY IS...JOHN BROUGHT PHAROAH BACK FROM CALIFORNIA.I CAME UP ‘CAUSE I WOULD EITHER SLEEP IN THE BASEMENT...BASICALLY,THAT'S WHERE I SLEPT.IN THE BASEMENT...WHEN THEY SEPERATED.WHEN HE FINALLY LEFT NEET,I TOOK THE SMALL ROOM UPSTAIRS.BUT I SLEPT IN THE BASEMENT AND WHEN I CAME UP OUT OF THE BASEMENT I SEE THIS GUY LAYING ON THE COUCH.I SAID,'OH,HELL!WHO THE HELL IS JOHN BRINGING HERE?' BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD COME AROUND AND HANG AROUND AND HE WAS A NICE GUY LIKE THAT.THEY WOULD COME AND HANG AROUND AND SO I SAID,'WELL,I GUESS I GOT TO DEAL WITH THIS.'AND IT WAS PHAROAH! PHAROAH SANDERS!SO I DON'T NEED TO GO ANY FURTHER FROM THERE. WE GOT TO MEET AND TALK AND TOLD HIM WHERE I WAS AND HE WAS AND HE WAS BASICALLY,I FELT,AHEAD OF ME ON HIS HORN THAN I WAS ON MINE.BUT I WAS ON HIS ASS COMING UP BECAUSE I WAS PRACTICING EVERY DAY DOING IT...AND THE AVANTE-GARDE THING WAS BEGINNING TO COME MORE INTO PROMINENCE.IT WAS JUST BEGINNING TO DEVELOP'CAUSE I REMEMBER I SAT IN WITH HANK MOBLEY AT SLUGS'ONE TIME AND I CAME OUT OF THE TUNE,WE WERE DOING A BLUES,I CAME OUT OF IT LIKE A BAR EARLY AND I GOT VERY UPTIGHT.A MATTER OF FACT,JUNIE BOOTH AND THE DRUMMER WAS JACK DEJOHNETTE.I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WAS SITTING IN OR WORKING.I THINK THEY WAS SITTING IN.I CAME OUT OF THAT AND HANK CAME OVER TO ME,AND HE LIKED MY PLAYING,WHICH MEANS I HAD TO BE PLAYING IN.I WASN'T PLAYING OUT.I WAS PLAYING WITH HANK MOBLEY!SO HE SAID,'MAN,YOU SOUND GOOD.'BUT,HOWEVER,THE OTHER THING WAS COMING AND BEING PREVALENT SO PHAROAH HAD EVIDENTALLY HOOKED UP WITH SONNY BEFORE I DID.KNEW HIM BEFORE I DID.AND THIS IS ABOUT A YEAR LATER,I THINK,AND HE SAID IF YOU WANT TO GET IN TOUCH WITH ME CALL THIS NUMBER.SUN RA'S NUMBER.AND I SAID OK. ALLRIGHT.SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH MY MIND IN THE SENSE OF INTUITION BUT I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AND GOING DOWN TO THE VILLAGE TO HEAR MUSIC I HAD WALKED PAST A CLUB.I WAS STILL IN HIGH AT THIS TIME AND I SAW HIS NAME WITH THE BAND AD- VERTISED OUTSIDE AND JUST SOMETHING SAID TO ME,'YOU GOING TO BE PLAYING WITH THIS MAN.'AND I JUST KEPT ON WALKING.NOW,I WAS ABOUT SIXTEEN,SEVENTEEN OR EIGHTEEN.SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THERE.WHEN PHAROAH GAVE ME THE NUMBER...I FELT THAT WHEN I CALLED THIS NUMBER I WAS GOING TO GET A GIG.AND I CALLED THE NUMBER LOOKING FOR PHAROAH AND PHAROAH WASN'T THERE.AND I SPOKE TO SONNY.AND THIS WAS 64.SONNY SAID,'WHO ARE YOU AND BLAH,BLAH,BDAH.'AND HE SAID,'WHAT DO YOU PLAY?'AND I SAID TRUMPET AND HE SAID COME ON DOWN AND THAT'S WHERE I MET (SUN RA).THIRD STREET. SRR NUMBER EIGHT-PUBLISHED FIVE TIMES IN 1996—SUBSRIPTION:$15.00 FOR FIVE ISSUES;$3.00 SINGLE ISSUE.BACK ISSUES:$3.00.0VERSEAS: $4.00 SINGLE ISSUE.BACK ISSUES:$4.00.SUBSCRIPTION:$20.00 FOR FIVE ISSUES.EDITED BY PETER HINDS.COPYRIGHT 1996.0MNI PRESS.P.O. BOX 786,MILLBRAE,CA.94030. .2z27¢///// 015076 V9 '3Vllfl'l'IlH 98L X08 '0'd HQIIVHSIHI VII MS