Stuart Frederick

Cover photograph:Stuart Frederick

JUNE 1999 ISSUE 23

Conversation with Sun Ra and Peter Hinds...March 29,1989 . . . . . . . ..
Peter Hinds;How are you doing?

Sun Ra:well,I'm still trying.I just got back from New York.
PH:How was New York?

SR:It was a1right.I'm playing the sunrise concert on June 21.
Me and Don Cherry at Battery Park in New York City.

PH:June twenty first?
SR:Yeah,summer golstice.
PH:That'll be beautiful.At six am?

SR:well,no.The sun rises at four something and we'll bring

the sun in.Me and Don Cherry.It's a big affair.It's starting
on the twentieth with Max Roach at sunset.Max Roach will begin
the performances with fifty drummers.And then it's going on and
keep on ‘till midnight.At midnight...that's when I'll appear,
really.But I won't really be playing,me and Don Cherry,untill
the sun rises.I will be playing when the sun rises.Then I play
untill about seven or somethingt like that.Me and Don Cherry.

A hundred piece(s)in the choir and it got a lot of things'cause
a lot of places we going I got to deal with all kind of things
in between the time Don Cherry and I appear.

PH:That's sensationa1.That'1l be beautiful.

SR:And I'm probably writing something for the one hundred piece
choir to sing. '

PH:Alright.You just made all the arrangements today with that?

SR:Yes,I signed a contract today so that's it.Actually,during
that particular time I'm supposed to be in British Vancouver
(British Columbia)because after I get this concert I got to go
to British Vancouver and tour up in Canada.Toronto and some
more places up around there.So then I was worried about whether
I was going to be able to do it but since it's on the twenty
first I can do it'cause it's going to be a very important
festival.

PH:That's true.So you going to fly to Vancouver and then go
across Canada right after that.

SR:Yeah,go right across Canadainid you get the Spin magazine
yet?

PH:Oh yeah,I got the Spin.I sure did.
SR:what did you think?

PH:Beautiful interview.Great,you know.I like those interviews
where they stand back and let you talk. ‘

SR:It was quite provacative.
PH:0h,it certainly is.(laughs)

SR:Startling things there about God.I repeated what I said in
that(interview)today.Another interview fella.

PH : with whom?
SR:well,with the people that's in charge of the festival.

PH:well,that's going to get a reaction.There's no
question(laughs).

SR:I'm not attacking the church.I'm just telling what they
worship.And things are getting worse.They do say they trust

in God but things are getting worse and worse.And you judge

a tree by the fruit.They not worshipping Satan.They not
worshipping him but they say God will take care of them.Of
course,God got some caretakers over in the cemetary.That's

what they call them,Caretakers.He take care of them alright.

So they should wake up and see it's a very terrible test on
humanity for them not to use their brain and see that God is
really real but he's dead,you know.But from the point of...
like some of the hippies say God is dead.They(are)right.But
except they should add a t(and)h on there and say God is death
because he jumped over into that particular mission.'Cause
folks messed with his name so much(and)did so many bad things.
God abandoned that name and that's what the Christ crucifiction
mean.He took the name of God and nailed up on that cross and
got rid of it and made it equal to death'cause he killed.He
killed the name and,therefore,anybody who jump over in the name
of God,they going to get killed.They going to get wasted be-
cause God wasted the name.God,he got rid of it because it was
too disgraceful and they did too many bad things in that name
and they brought on down to the lowest common denominator of
the worst possible thing.That's why in a business contract they

say acts of God includes tornadoes,earthquakes,tidal waves.
Everything that is bad.They call that acts of God.People
ought to wake up and see that everything here is fixed up
and you got the words and everything(so)rthey should believe
and be saved.But then it isn't so much about being saved as
being rescued because it's quite dangerous.Like-one of the
fellows in the band connected with me.He prayed to God last
night for(him)to save him.I told him don't be doing that.I
said,"Don’t be asking God for nothing.He's not your friend
at this particular point.Ain't nobody's friend because it's
a bad name.It used to be a good name but it's a bad one now.
Don't ask him for nothing."So he was praying to God and today
he came out of the house and was walking down the street and
a dog broke loose from loose from the chain and hit him.

PH:Oh no.(laughs)

SR:Yes it did.It bit him.I done told him:do not be talking
about praying to God'cause you'll get a message.

PH:He got a message all right.

SR:This dog bit him up around his knee.
PH:Is he ok? % I
SR:we1l,I mean he went to the hospital.
PH:who was this?

SR:Eddie Jones.You've never seen him.
PH:No I haven't.Does he play drums?

SR:He play drums.He never been out there.But he disobeyed me.

I told him about my equations.That the worst thing he could

do is to be over there praying to God because that name was
disgraced so thoroughly and the Creator hated it so bad that
anybody who even say that word,they break some curses off of
them.That might sound strange but I see the world is in trouble,
trouble,trouble.And when Adam and Eve was told and when they
say unintelligible shall become as Gods and they touched that
tree,they got a terrible,terrib1e condition.So the book says

to become as God,over there you be in trouble.That what the
book says.You be in trouble.And they don't believe the book

but the book is equational and it's happening.It ain't supposed
to happen.A very bad book but it is happening and there it is a

a great punishment on all humanity to have a book like that.

But the book is exactly what they deserve because they deceptive
and the book is more deceptive than them.It's more deceptive
than them and the book is more destructive than humanity.So they
met their match at last.They met their match.That book is taking
care of the business on people.Because when it said the word was
made first it was talking about the book.The book is the word of
god.So they be over there worshipping the word of God and the
word of God is not God.It's just-a word,you see.That's what they
worshipping.The word.And the word is taking care of business on
them.It's like I said:That there's somebody dare to address the
Creator of God he throws all his wrath and fury on them.He sends
a message:don't call him nothing like that.That's my message to
humanity:Do not call the Creator God'cause you'll make him mad.
Now,he made that word God a sin... because so many people did bad
things in that name.

PH:That's so true.
SR:And still doing.
PH:That's true,too.

SR:They doing some bad things in that name.Like putting out

five million dollar reward for killing a man.That is not good. f

And then kill another man'cause he said it wasn't right.That is
not proper.But they doing it in the name of God.So they got a
message coming.I shudder for them.They done went too far.They
got a terrible,terrible message coming.It's unintelligible likefi.
the Pope said.Again he said that people have reached a point of
self destruct.He said they got to be carefu1.But,of course,ain't
nobody unintelligible the Pope.Because the Pope supposed to be
representing the Devil they say.And,of course,they don't listen
to that.But I'm telling you,whatever you representing,he's tell-
ing the truth and that's what the world got to recognize.If a _
person is telling the truth,forget his religion,forget his color,
forget everything.It is the truth.And this truth where humanity
is over there teetering on the verge of complete collapse and
complete annihilation forever.And their soul pattern would be
erased(and)they won't be remembered no more.Now they got to be
careful.But I have stayed out of it'cause I knew they ain't going
to treat me right.They wasn't going to pay me properly but I '
still have put beauty out there and I'm still doing it.I have to
do that because I know there is a Creator and he does care about
people but it's the same way like if a man got a dog and the dog
gets sick and can't get well he kill him.And that's what the
Creator going to do to mankind if they don't get out of this

out as much in pity he going to get rid of them because if he
loves them he will not let them stay in this condition and they
got to go.If they sick and lame and hurt and all that the best
thing he can do out of mercy and pity is to get rid of them.
And.this way he'd save them from pain and suffering'cause he
doesn't like that and the only way he can stop it is to get rid
of people that's in that condition.Now the world trying to do
something else and make it seem like it's alright and they going
to heaven.But no.It's not like that.They can do it here.

PH:I would say so.

SR:'Cause they do a lot of ugly things here and they don't have

.to go to heaven to do them and they don't have to go to hell.

They do these ugly,mean,hateful(things)right here all over the
planet.So then,therefore,they can do some good things here.They
die here on this planet.Therefore they can be a model on this
planet because the universe is big and the omniverse is out
there holding it's arms out ready to embrace them and say come
on and live.Now,if they can't see that and insist on following
what is in the past,well,they just have to die.That's a1l.And
it's right at your door.And I'm not going to lie to people for
the sake of money and I'm not going to do it.I'm telling the ’
truth.Now they might not like it.I don't care.They on the verge
of self destruct and when it happens it's going to happen fast.
Because it is writtenzthey shall all be changed in a twinkling
of an eye.But that change will be that they will be dead;Now,
they think it means that they going to be into immmortality.
But it works two ways.Whenever a person dies they go through

a change.That's it.But the change will be where they will be
dead and people are dying now in the twinkling of an eye.One
minute they here,next minute they not.Totally unexpected,too.
One more unintelligible where people have no inkling of that
they going to die and all at once something happens and they
dead.Now,I'm dealing with equations and I'm not out there talk-
ing about saving people because that ain't too good.It is not
too good because if you say something you go and put it in the
bank.You put it in the bank and this God also puts people in a
bank.Now,the earth itself is called bank because,you know,they
talk about the banks of a river don't they? ~

PH:(Indicates yes)

SR:And they talking about the earth.So they put them down in

the bank to save them.And they put them in the vaults,too'cause
they got some vaults in the cemetary.You put them in the vaults
to save them.So,now,behind this drummer(Eddie Jones)asking God

to save him and the dog bit him,wel1 it ain't wise.It's not
wise.I'm going to tell him,too.

PH:That's a warning.

SR:I'm going to warn him again.Do not be playing with God about
saving because,you know,once John(Gilmore)was praying to God and
he was reading the Bible and he asked God,say(he said),"Show me
your tender mercies."

PH:What happened?

SR:The next day a flash fire came through his mother's apartment
in Chicago and she had to flee for her life and was nothing saved
but her.I told him don't ever pray that prayer again.(JG said),
But he showed me tender mercies."But his mother lost everything.
So he hasn't prayed that prayer since.Now,I'm talking about some-
thing that my experiences in whatever you call this,1ife or what-
ever it is.I'm talking about from personal experience that is
dangerous to put any people over there associating with God.
"Cause I heard a black man say,we1l,in six days God made the
heavens and earth.On the seventh day he rested and ain't did a
God damned thing since.At the time I was studying religion and

‘things.I was totally shocked.I just got out of college and I was

shocked that a man could unintelligible say that about God.But

I didn't doubt it.I 1istened.I listenend to a lot of men who had
such great education and they were talking something else.And
then one day I was in a train station late at night.Early in the
morning rather and me and Richard(wilkinson)and some fellows in
the band in this unintelligible in Philadelphia and a black man,
he say,"well,God is with me.He's always with me and I don't mind
telling the world he's with me and been with me.I don't mind
telling the police or the man.I don't care who knows it.God is
with me.But he's fucking me up."Now,I listenend to that,too.
They didn't care uninte1ligible.And I told the band,"Don't say
nothing.Do not say a word."we have nothing to do with it.But the
man is telling the truth.And in about five(minutes)the police
came.You know,he was talking loud and he told the police,"Yeah,
you the man and I said that God's with me and I tell the man

and you the man and I'm going to tell you.God is with me and I
still say he's fucking me up;"Then the police got him by the

arm and led him on down the steps.(Sun Ra chuckles and PH
laughs)But,now that's just two examples I saw.Now,(the)other

'day,1ast week I was looking at TV and they was talking about a

play that a black-man had written(possib1y August wilson).In
the play the black man was saying,"Yeah,and God don't never do
nothing for no black fo1ks.He give everything to white folks“

and he don't care nothing about me.And as far as I'm concerned,
I don3t care nothing about him."And then he turned to the camera
and said,"God can kiss my black ass."That's on TV.(SR and PH
laugh)He shook his ass.(More 1aughter)And I sat there utterly
astounded.what you think of that? ' *

PH:That wasn't on that special channe1(cable access)you get in‘
New York City is it?

SR:0h no.This was on the regular TV.It was on the newscast or
something and they was talking about this fellow that written
this play.It was part of the p1ay.(SR and PH laugh)

PH:That's too much.

SR:He's talking about God and turned his booty to the camera and
shook it and said(that)God can kiss his black ass.Now,you see,
that's these things I've told you.And then Ali,another fellow
that was connected with us singing,one day he called me and told
me that he had a vision where he saw God and God was sitting on
a throne in a gold robe and all that,gold hat,and the room was‘
all golden with the rays coming from him and he(Ali)was buck
naked in the back of the hall standing there and he came up(and)
approached God and God told him(to)stand back.Don't you come

near me.So he called me and asked me what the meaning of it(was).

I said,"well,they say a man can't see God and 1ive.Now,you say
you saw him.We1l,from what I hear,prepare to die.Now,I say,"Now,
the fact that he told you to stand back means that you got a
little while or maybe he just rejected you'cause God,I told you
I said God is death.So(if) he accept you,you through.Now,of
course,if he rejected you,you probably all through,too.You(are)
in trouble."And three months later he died.

PH:Really.

SR:That's right.So I'm going by...well,you know,it's dangerous.

.And I wouldn't be talking to people if I didn't realise there

is something that they call God that's watching people very,
very carefully.Seeing that they going to come to understand the
truth of the bad things he's doing to them.And he increasing
these bad things for people to wake up and say this is terrible.
And they wou1d(be)telling the truth and would have given God his

glory for being the worst possible thing to everbe on the planet.

‘Cause when you doing good things for him,they wouldn't give him
no credit.Now he wants them to give him credit for doing these
bad things to them.They got to give him credit.Now,they wouldn't
give him credit for the nice blessings he,they better turn and

give him credit for these awful things and Say you the best.
That you messing me up.Now please stop your work.Don't work

on me like that.And that's what they need to tell God because
the Bible say the works of the world are evil and,you know,
Italians,like,when they go,when the gangsters going to kill
somebody they say they going to give them the works.(PH laughs)
So,you know,they better go to school.They have to learn all
these things and I just didn't make them up myself.I don't do
that.I try to stay away from human beings because I know they in
troub1e,troub1e,trouble and I shudder every time I look at one.
It terrifies me to look at a human being and see their future.
it's nothing but trouble,trouble,troub1e,troub1e.And I see it
creeping up on them.Like,for ten years I been telling Elo(Omoe),
Elo,you better stop smok(ing)'cause after a while it's going to
be against the law to smoke.Now,on that law I'm telling him that
(for)ten years.And now,today I was in,unintelligible seperate
place for you to smoke.It's in New York in the Hotel Edison they
got a restuarant and they got a special place over there for.
smokers.On a corner...Today I went to the hotel and up in the
front entrance they had no smoking.So you can't smoke in the
restaurant at al1.(PH and SR 1augh)And I been telling him that.
And then the planes talking about no(smoking).Every pleasure
that man has known the Creator going to strike at it.They's not
going to have no pleasure without him.And they can forget it.
Now,he going to be striking there with diseases.All kind of
trouble going to strike this planet untill they aknowledge one
thingzthere is something superior to them.They must aknowledge
there's something superior to them and it's watching them and
it's messing them up.Just like that black man said.And they»
would tell the truth.They would not tell the truth about the
nice things that the Creator was doing.what he wanted them to

do is to tell the truth and say how much happy and bad things
he's doing to them.He is doing some of...the Bible say I will
watch over them for evil.Now they've unintelligible.You know,

it comes down to equations.I'm dealing with equations and that's
the reason I to1d,I told unintelligible I'm working with evil
and she said she wasn't going to publish that.

PH:She would not or would?y
SR:She said she wasn't.

PH:Really?

SR:Can't be putting that...I told her I unintelligible what I am.

I'm not righteous.But if I'm not righteous I must be evil and
wicked.I’m not perfect so I must be imperfect.If I'm imperfect

then I'm evil and wicked.That's what I told her.And then she
didn't understand.She didn't put that in there.

PH:All I can say is then is hooray for evil.

SR:But the point of it is that I said that because I'm talking
from a spirit point of view and then later on I found out why

I was saying it.And that is because they always talking about
what Jesus said and he said an evil father knows how to do good
works(and)good things for his children.So then I say I'm evil

so I can do some good things for my children'cause the book says
so.It does not say that a righteous man can do good things for
his chi1dren.It said evil father.Not a righteous father.An evil
father knows how to do good things for his children.I like that.
Because that's an exit,you see.

PH:It's a what?
SR:Exit.
PH:An exit.

SR:Yeah.All you got to do is get up on the evil father and he
can do some nice things for them.'Cause the book says so.That
is if the evil father wants to accept them as his children.So
it's very magnificant if they can see the point.It also says...
it's got God saying I have no pleasure in the death of the
wicked.And the wicked would turn and do that which is right he
shall save his soul a1ive.It gives a wicked person the oppor-
tunity to be his own saviour.Now,the book is the truth but they
use it to wrong way.Like some people have gotten so drunk off
of righteousness that they feel that they got the authority and
the right to kill another human being.That's called they right-
eous but,you know,they're quite wrong.They're quite wrong.It's
not proper what they doing and the world is going to see what
happens to people who do these improper things in the name of
God.Those people doing things like that in the name od God are
in great danger.'Cause when you unintelligible it's going to be
terrible,terrib1e,terrible.A

PH:It'll be a lot worse than the dog bite.That's for sure.

SR:Of course it is.And the world ain't got no excuse for what
God did.Used to be God.He's ex—God now'cause he dropped that
name.what he did,he went out and put a symbol out to the world
showing his power where the world could remember(and)the world
couldn't say there is no God'cause he put something on this V

I planet for them to see him at work.All the time,twenty four

hours a day.So if they look carefully they would see the handi-
work of God speaking to all nations saying here I am,Look,here

I am.And what he did(was)he went out there and he selected some
people from one of the nations.Namely ones called negroes and he
took them and he took their country,took their flag,took their
armies,took their name(and)took everything away from them.And
then he took them and he turned them over into the hands of the
nations and made them servants of everybody.And all to show the
world that he can protect you if you ain't got no army and no
navy and no soldiers and no money and no nothing.And that's what
happened to the so-called negroes.He put them in America(and)
they didn't have no money for four hundred years.No army,no
money,no name,no nothing.And this had never happened in the
history of the world.And he did it deliberate1y.To show that he
can protect a person if they don't have nothing.Not even an
identity.And this is speaking to the world everyday.It says see.
And every now and then he take some black folks and raise them
up there in a high position.And they not getting up there them~
selves.He Pht them up there.He put them up there.He had took all
these black folks and made them mayors.He is in control.Don't
nothing happen on this planet unless the one called God knows
about it.Nothing happens.And they watch very carefully.I know
'cause ever since I been a teenager I can feel somebody watching
over my shoulder all the time.And I was feeling the truth'cause
he's doing everybody like that. ~ ’

SR:I know I'm dealing with another kind of truth.And it's been
happening to me a whole lifetime.Like one time we were coming...
Vernel Fournier(drummer who played with Sun Ra in Chicago)and
somebody else,another bass player in Chicago was driving along
and all at once the car stopped and unintelligible and moving by
and I said,"What's wrong."He said it's frozen gasoline on the
highway."And I said,"Can't you put on the breaks?"He said,"No,
if I put on the breaks it will slide.Ain't nothing you can do
when you hit frozen gasoline."That's what he told me.He said,
"You see all some cars that hit that lampost and thing over
there and the police car?It's nothing they can do either.So,
therefore I have to keep on moving.I can't put the brakes on.

If I hit something I can't help it."And then I said one word
and the car stopped on a dime.I said one word and that car

put on the brakes and stood still.Now,that's what I'm dealing
with.I cannot escape things like that.How can you explain that?
And what word did I say?I said,"Father1"And the car stopped.
Now again,we were coming from Milwaukee and it was snowing and

10

everything(and)we was in the van and the van hit a pocket of
snow where it looked like it was the road but it wasn't the
road,it was the edge of the road and it was over there like

on a cliff.It was leaning over like a fourty five degree(angle).
And a lot of times I don't be as1eep.I just be cogitating or
something and I openend my eyes and the car was over there like
that,like it was(going to)turn on over and I said,"God!"and then
it stopped.Then they got out and they put it back on the road.
And then a big truck passed by,and on the truck it had written
in big letters,God's country.Now,I can't get away from these
things otherwise I just go to Egypt and be on the desert or
something and I can get out of the way.I'm not in politics or
religion or anything 1ike(that).I'm not into that'cause it ain't
got nothing to do with me.I just like to play my music and write
and everything and deal with beauty and I'm not trying to con-
vert nobody or nothing like that or be no ruler over them.No,
but it is very difficult for me because more and more people,
they be listening to what I'm saying(and)interviewing and all
that and I know it ain't going to help them for me to talk to
them unless they change.And they can't change because I ask
them to.They have to change because they see conditions for
them are bad and they headed for self destruct if they don't
turn.They have to with all their heart realise something is
wrong.And people out getting hurt.You know(there are)a lot of
people killing their families and comitting suicide and that.
Unintelligible.And a lot of people go out so far they go out
and pick(up)their gun and start shooting people.Innocent people.
now.You've got that happening.It's complete chaos,you know.

It's complete chaos.A man was on TV yesterday,unintelligible
trouble or some kind of trouble,they were interviewing him from
prison.He killed one hundred and thirty five people or there-
about.They asked him did he got some kind of sexual feeling out
there?He said no.Do you feel any remorse for what you did?No.
well,why did you kill those people?I just sleep better when I
kill.

PH:(Laughs)A cure for insomnia.

SR:when the last person I killed and they caught me I begged
them to just kill me and give me the death penalty.But they
wouldn't do it.They say I didn't know what I was doing.But if
I get out I'm going to kill me some more so I can sleep.
PH:So they gave him life instead,right?

SR:well,he supposed to get out in,maybe,maybe five or six years.
Because they wouldn't give him the death sentence...so he up for

11

paro1e.But if he said if I get out I know I'm going to do the
same thing.That's why I asked them to kill me and get rid of

me because I'm going to...the first somebody when I was going
to kill somebody,the first somebody I thought about killing

was my mother'cause I hated her.I think my hate for humanity
started with me hating my mother.She was a prostitute,you know.
All these things right on TV.Right on TV.And I be looking at
them and wondering whether the rest of the world seen it'cause
it's in Philadelphia.And I tell you,this is a strange city.

If I had the money I'd let them have it.You know I own a house
here.I'd let them have it.But I'm stuck here.For some reason I
suppose...well,I just...that's it.Unintelligible I said that
Philadelphia is the headquarters of death.If I could change
things here I'd help the whole world.And I still say...it's

the city of death,its headquarters.And here's a little research
you can research on.Somebody told me that the original name was
Philadelphia,is the city(called)the cemetary with lights.That's
the original name of the city.I don't know where they got it
from.But at night,late at night(when)you come into Philadelphia
it looks like there nobody here.It looks like a cemetary.It feels
like it.It's most amazing.So whenever I go out of Philadelphia
I feel better.It's something here and it ain't too good.They got
something called radon gas here,too.It'd be some kind of way,it
makes people sick and do things to them and I saw something on

e TV yesterday about a family's servant discovered it was in their

house.
PH:Yeah,it comes up out of the ground.I've heard about that.

SR:It mess people up.well anyway,I am talking more and more
telling people the truth.Another kind of thruth.Well,it's most
amazing I would even dare to do something like that but I'm
speaking from the spirit and I have to.It just comes out.It
comes out.A pure truth.And they can't shake it(get rid of it).
I'm talking about equations.Now,a lot of...you got five billion
people on this planet.It's a shame for five billion people to
die.But they going to die unless something comes up to stop it.
Now,I'm just one person and I'm telling(them to)listen at this.
Like,I was on cable TV with Don Cherry...

PH:Oh,really?Today?

'SR:No,that was,it was on there a week ago.MTV,that comes out

your way,doesn't it?

PH:Yes it does.

12

SR:well,they showed it in New York.So I imagine it's coming
out...I'm playing piano and Don Cherry is playing trumpet.
Before that I was ta1king.The man asked me,he said,"well,you
got a lot of things(happening)and help a lot of people.As a
man you really have done quite a bit of things..."And I said,
"Don't call me nothing like that."He said,"what?"Do not call
me man.I'm not man.I'm an angel.So he was quite startled.

(SR chuckles and PH laughs)I said man only uses five percent
of his brain and I'm not going to be nothing like that.

PH:That'1l usually stop people.That'll stop them in their
tracks,make them think.

SR:I use more than five percent of my brain so he ain't going
to put me over in that class that I'm just going to use five
percent of my brain.I'm not going to be like that.Don’t call

me nothing associated with that.If that's what they are,that's
what they are.Just don't come near me.(SR and PH laugh)And the
announcer,he was,they put the camera on him(and)his mouth fell
open(and)he was 1ooking,he was shocked by my words.Then he said,
well,it's time for announcements or things like that...

PH:Time for a station break.

SR:I said,yeah,what I'm talking about is an exit for humanity.

And he said it's time for my exit now.(SR and PH laugh)He went

over and got off the air but it was really funny'cause they

put the camera on him(and)caught his reaction of me saying that
I'm an angel.I said because I'm on a higher plane than a man.A

man can't do too much.He's limited.I used to think he had some

'power(but)he ain't got none.He's limited.He be trying to do some

good things but they all turn bad.So then he does not have the
power.Unintel1igible an angel,I'm going to do some good things.
I'm going to do some bad things,too.Because I'm a bad angel.
But every now and then I make a mistake and do something good.
I've made a lot of mistakes through the Years but,anyway,it
is...and tomorrow,the day after,a magazine called Elle,I think,
that's a fashion magazine.They want to put me over in the
fashion.They going to come out and photograph me in my space
stuff.

PH:Beautiful.
SR:And I hear that's a good magazine.

PH:It's a big magazine full of color...‘

13

SR:And they want to put me in there.So you see.it's all kind

'of things.I'm really worshipping a Creator that's fantastic.

And he keeps me out there in the...l have to really always

see that the quality of my music is up.If I don't make no

money I have to have beauty out there and I have to have un-
intelligible out there and I'm doing that.And I'm doing that...
like California now.It's very expensive to come out there so I
might have to have fourteen pieces but I'm getting ready to call
up now and see whether I can have fifteen because,see,I got two
drummers and one of them,Bil1y Kaye,I could do without.But
actually that's what we been doing lately in New York with
Buster(Smith)and Billy Kaye.He played with Lou Donaldson.He's

a mainliner,a mainstream(musician)... ' ’

PH$Lou Donaldson I don't think would have anything to do with
you,would he? ' . '

SR:Oh yeah,Lou Donaldson,there,I knew him in Chicago.And he al-

ways,whenever we p1aying,Lou Donaldson shows up and stands in
wings.And he be saying the band is really playing.

PH:All right-well,that's good to hear.

SR:Aurther Blythe,too.we was on the same program with him.And
then they put his band on...they put his band on last and we
was on first. '
PH:Oh no.(PH and SR laugh)i

SR:What did they do?They put his band,yeah...and so the next
night they put him on first.He wouldn't go on last.That still
didn't do no good.So then he...Aurther Blythe say,well,he never
going to play on a program with us again unless he play with
the band.

PH:If you can't beat them,join them,you know.

SR:No,he wasn't going to do that again.Not have no group up
against his band.He'd play with the band.But otherwise forget
it.He's not going to have that.

PH:That's good.

SR:That's really quite a compliment.

PH:That's good to hear.

14

SR:So anyway,I was going to bring Billy Bang out there but
Billy,he got a son and so his wife took the son and put him
over there with him so he got to take care of him and his son
in-law is a teenager and you have to watch over teenagers all
the time.This time he can't get away so I doubt whether I'll
bring him.I'm going to bring the Brazilian instead.He has such
a nice personality.He play drums.I might have two of them or
three there but I just got to watch my transportation because
I told you I wasn't able to get together from the American side
and this transportation is_coming from Germany.And they just
sent us fourteen tickets so,you know,I really intend to have
Julian Priester though and I think that's what I want to do.

PH:He's up in Seattle.

SR:Yes.He'll be there(San Francisco)with us.He went to Europe"
with us because he played with us at first(Chicago in the 50's),
you know.And I just reached back and got him and he played,he
made a record with us with A&M and unintelligible might say

why should I go and build up somebody?(Because)Julian has paid
a lot of dues and really feels what I am doing.

PH:He was playing with you when he was a teenager,I guess.
SR:That's right.

PH:He made the live record in New York_a few months ago?The
A&M thing? -

SR:A&M.Yes.well,anyway I'm going to take Julian with me.It's
just,in a sense,he's teaching school at the University of wash-
ington(actually it was the Cornish Institute of Music in Seattle,
washington)and he have to pay if he unintelligible pay them to
hold the job there but still it makes more sense to me,wel1,I
got to have quality out there.The world needs some beauty and
they need some coordination and precision.It's too bad I don't
really have records to sell out there.That would help me but I
can work on the book thing.

PH:Oh yeah,I got some books for you.

SR:And these other things which I added and it's fantastic and

I really intend to send it to you because we not leaving untill
the fourth,you see.We'll leave the day before we supposed to be
there. »

PH:So you're going to leave tuesday April fourth on an airplane?

15

 

SR:Yes,it looks like it's going to be that way.

_—.._—_—.._—————_———_..._——-...——_..___;..——————-._..—._——___——.._.———..___..___—

SR:(Speaking of the Disney music)I'm featuring particularly a
Second Star to the Right and Wish Upon A Star.Numbers like that.
And since Danny(Thompson),he might be there but maybe I won't
bring him...because I got a whole repertoire without him,you see.
Tailor made things.Because he was absent from us,you know,through
his romancing and his marriage.I got a whole repertoire he know
nothing about.'Cause I don't be waiting on nobody.I keep on‘mov-
ing.So then I'd have to in order for him to play in the band,I'd
have to change the whole repertoire again and find someplace for
him to be in there.So he with us but...he's a problem.At this
time I can't compromise.I'm talking about precision and disci-
pline.I have to do that. I

PH:So I should check with you,I guess,you'd probably know the
details Sunday.

SR:well,I'll be here tomorrow and,well;you know,this photograph

. thing I was telling you about.That magazine(Elle).They want to

come all the way to Philadelphia and photograph me.I was saying
I could go to New York but maybe I should let them come to Phila-
delphia. '

PH:well,yeah.That would be good.So they come over Friday or
Saturday,something like that? .

SR:Saturday.I was thinking about going to New York and having

to make photograph at the Indigo unintelligible Club which
would be a feather in my cap for me to bring unintelligible

in their place and they say it‘s alright.So,oh well,there you
are...Well,I'm going to try anf get these things to you so that
you can,in fact,if I send them you will probably get them Satur-
day. ’>

SR:Yeah,I think that's the best thing to get it out there to
people so they can read it and you see what a book can cause.
Look what Satanic Verse caused(over)the whole world}

16

Conversation with Sun Ra and Peter Hinds...June 17,1988........

PH:Was Michael Ray on the tour?(Sun Ra has just returned from a
European tour)

SR:Yes,he was on the tour.

‘PH:who else?It was Tyrone(Hil1),Michael Ray...

SR:Tyrone was there and Martin Banks and the usual sax section.
Kenny(wi1liams)was there.

PH:Kenny on the baritone,right?

SR:Yeah,he was there.

PH:(Did)Danny(Thompson)go?

SR:No,he's talking about getting back in the band.I don't
know.He went through his love extravaganza and all that.He's
not with his wife now.Seperated quick.I had to get him an
apartment to stay in(and)pay for it. -

PH:Last time,before you left,he was staying at Pat's(Patrick)
place.Pat was out of town.

SR:Pat's p1ace,that's the apartment I pay for.Pat moved.
PH:where's Pat living now?

SR:Boston.At least he's in Boston right now.Pat can't stand
stil1.He's up there waiting on them.Every time he gets a chance

he runs to see his mother,he runs to see his chi1dren.He can't
stand still.

PH:wel1,that's good.He's one step ahead of everybody in the
band,sounds 1ike,you know. .

SR:He rented a car and he drove up there.I reckon he's lonely
or something.he have to keep moving.

 

PH:You working on some new compositions?

SR:I haven't been doing too much since I got back.I got my
instrument up here and everything but I had to take charge

17

for my transportation and everything.Danny's still getting
over his love spe1l.And Barday was with us and then he,he went
out.I don't know.Something be taking people over.

PH:what happenend to Barday?

SR:well,he(was)drunk(for)one thing and laying out on the floor
in the dressing room in Germany or one of them places.So after
that I couldn't trust him to take care of no business.the bus
driver had to take over and take care of business unintelligible.
I just can't trust nobody that going to do that.He caused me to
lose one of my bags with my costume in it(and with)him being
like that(drunk)it wasn't nobody to watch.Somebody must have
stolen it out of the dressing room or misplaced it or something.
That really upset me'cause we didn't lose nothing else.So it
seem that when somebody around me who ain't proper I have to

pay for them being around me.It's some kind of law about me.If
I'm trying to help somebody that's doing improper things i lose
something.I suffer a penalty you might say.And that's the reason
I'm going to get more and more careful about who I hire because
I have to pay.

PH:That's true.In one form or the other that's true.That's too
bad.

SR:And like he was nice and quiet and everything and then I

can't trust the nice and quiet ones in there because they might
go out.Something be taking hold of people and I have to recog-
nise that they're not themselves at times.They like Doctor Jekyll
and Mr.Hyde.I don't know what cause it but...it's true.

PH:You been playing the keyboard up there?You been playing your
Yamaha Dx?

SR:I got another instrument.I bought three new instruments.
PH:Oh really?what's that about now?

SR:One of them is a Yamaha but it's got some nice drum effects
on there and the other one is just a strictly a drum machine
and the other one is a...has some nice space effects on it.So

I got three keyboard instruments.

PH:what kind are they?

18

SR:One of them is a Korg.Yes,it's a very pretty instrument.
That's what attracted me in the first(p1ace)...white and...
it's got nice space effects on that one.They call it 1999
space sounds.And then I use that most...very intriguing sounds.
And then I got...I got this other instrument.It's a sort of
British instrument and it's got,like,pads,round pads or some-
thing on it and...it makes drum sounds.Simi1ar to things like
that.It's very nice.It's not a keyboard instrument,it's got
these little pads on it.

PH:It's a drum instrument.

SR:Yes.It's electric,you know.And then I got the other instru-
ment which almost looks like a (Yamaha)DX 7 but it's got some
very nice drum effects,too.I can just play drums with both hands
now.Two sets of drums or even one.I got some compositions like
that.Basically I've been dealing with the rythym and the sound
of the drum.

PH:And that's a keyboard.

SR:It's a keyboard.

PH:And what name is that?

SR:I believe it's a Yamaha.It must be a Yamaha.I bought it...
where did I buy it?In Germany I presume.

PH:Did you have a special birthday tribute to Irving Berlin
a few weeks ago when you were out there?

SR:No.
PH:This was his one hundreth birthday a month ago.

SR:Unintelligible not to pleased with America right now.They
don't like Reagan.So the less I talked about America the better
they liked it.They don't like Reagan.They consider the United
States is nuts to even have somebody like that president That's
their opinion.'Cause they be asking me about it.

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