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Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 30 (October, 2000)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2000-10-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: O 3 E U S 5 OCT. 2000 THE TRAGEDY IS THEY DON'T HAVE THE MUSIC. THE TRAGEDY IS I HELD BACK THE BEST MUSIC. THE MUSIC THAT SHOULD BE OUT THERE (IS) NOT OUT THERE. ’CAUSE I KNEW THEY WAS . GOING TO ROB ME SO I DIDN'T PUT IT OUT THERE. I GOT SOME THINGS, YOU'D BE SURPRISED IF YOU HEARD THEM . . . I HAD TO HOLD EVERYTHING BACK. SO ACTUALLY THE WORLD HAS NEVER HEARD ME PLAY. ’CAUSE THE BEST TAPES HAVEN'T BEEN PUT ON A RECORD. SUN RA » ocronm 31, 1991 Sun Ra Conversation with Peter Hinds-September 22,1985 . . . . . . . .. Peter I-Iinds:Did you receive the book(IIn— rneasurable Equation)the other day? Sun Ra:Yes. PI-‘I:It should be seven pages of poetry in there._, SR:VVe11,it look like it was more than that. PI-I:Lets see...SeVen full pages... folded in ha1f-There's fourty poerns in the book-OK? ¢SR:'I‘hat must be the same one.I received it either yesterday. - . PI-I:That's the one.I sent that out 1\/Ionday and you probably got one on VVednesday or some ...
Show moreO 3 E U S 5 OCT. 2000 THE TRAGEDY IS THEY DON'T HAVE THE MUSIC. THE TRAGEDY IS I HELD BACK THE BEST MUSIC. THE MUSIC THAT SHOULD BE OUT THERE (IS) NOT OUT THERE. ’CAUSE I KNEW THEY WAS . GOING TO ROB ME SO I DIDN'T PUT IT OUT THERE. I GOT SOME THINGS, YOU'D BE SURPRISED IF YOU HEARD THEM . . . I HAD TO HOLD EVERYTHING BACK. SO ACTUALLY THE WORLD HAS NEVER HEARD ME PLAY. ’CAUSE THE BEST TAPES HAVEN'T BEEN PUT ON A RECORD. SUN RA » ocronm 31, 1991 Sun Ra Conversation with Peter Hinds-September 22,1985 . . . . . . . .. Peter I-Iinds:Did you receive the book(IIn— rneasurable Equation)the other day? Sun Ra:Yes. PI-‘I:It should be seven pages of poetry in there._, SR:VVe11,it look like it was more than that. PI-I:Lets see...SeVen full pages... folded in ha1f-There's fourty poerns in the book-OK? ¢SR:'I‘hat must be the same one.I received it either yesterday. - . PI-I:That's the one.I sent that out 1\/Ionday and you probably got one on VVednesday or some thing like that. SR:Yeah,I got two this week. PI-I:I have with me one of the Irnrneasurable Equation books" you did in 1980 and this has some more poe;tns.Is there anything else you Want rne to add to the?... SR:Is that a smaller book? PI-I:It's a little srnaller than the one you did about ten years ago- SR:Yeah,We11 that Inust be—See,different books got—Sornetirnes they have some poems that others don't have in it.-.'cause I busy changing according to what's happening to vv’hatf's ,hapening to‘ the -ivvorild as '_what. I I thought -people rnight n_eed- .- Lthis tirne.So -now -I got to‘ put that book out but the rnore "exclusives unintelligible 't:ause,you : . knoW,that thing that h_appenen_d Vina 1\/Iexico, e _ that's dreadfu1.And it ain'.t too rnuch: hope for this p1anet.V.That's just a prelude--'1‘hat"sg’a prelude ‘of destruc-tion-Now,scrlike. I said,if ’ anybody could do anythii1g,s.orne beauty_or anything that's ssincere,that they better. do "it * noW.I been~ saying 'that.Been telling people that7-See_,.they -wasn't listening.In fact,when I ‘ was in 1\/Iexico ten years ago(1974)I told thern about the _earthquake.I tell thern it would .be/ a terrible earthquake and t1'_1e/"city " was practic— ' tally be 7 destroyed“-I told thern and then sorne friends down 'there,one of thern.saw 1ne,they said yes—-—In faet,1ast’ week I said,A"'Yes’,<unin.— telligible wherefs this big ‘ear_thquake,you' k'no‘w?I_-Iovv ‘corne they notllannouncing it on _ the air(news.)?"'And he sayVS,r"VVel1,there-have- n't been no big ea-rthquak‘e."I said,"Yes it is, I saw 'it-\"And .so. then I was wondering ~'cause, I I thought. I saw‘ ,it.That ‘ I was seeing it -in -‘a vision and then it ;happenend.-I saw it before it happenend-But .I was saying,‘_'VVell,‘I woni—.» I ldergvvhy ‘don't they have it in the paper’?"_I said,"I don't know where it is but it's a big ~ earthq_uakel-_It's a tremendous earthqiuakpe."And I was vlooking’-a't it.1\Iow,I'In dealing with‘ , these things on another ’kind of psychic plane and; I'n1--VVe11_,it’s Iqhuitepdifficullt» for ‘Ine. right ‘ her-*e.-I know I'rn‘te1ling. I the truth that “cant I help this planet but then. people are not accustorned to accepting things that are better for thernﬁln rnusic and nothing el/se.And this I’ othe.r‘story‘where ‘these people are talking about_,'it's', ridiculo,us.Sayingi the truth _the - Church is tru_th,the government is’ truth. That's: not going- to nobody no ‘good if’ <- 2 _ -ain't -no good-. You /need sonriething _that more substantial and it ‘have to start with the _ 1*nus.ic.S_tar_'~t with ~sornethin'g- that is not phy——- isical.-lAnd rnusic is, not physic'al.VVel1-,you» A_ — know-,a lot of people v-that——VVell,“a« lot of ‘ rnusi‘cians,they’‘ rnaking rnoney;-I never ‘Inade any 'cause_ I was -trying to’ help huInanity.I spent a Whole lifetirne dodging publicity, y dodging_what~’ the other musicians f»haye.Nor— _ . .to/ do soarnething abo’ut'1peop1e so if,you knolvvxywu playing rnusic,if you" don't alhavei. no people “toﬂplay for then ‘vvh_at_ you’ goingy to do’?So then -every” rnusician should tbe trying ». his ‘audience will _stay.Sog Ii',In,you know,the‘ \« band _keep onix getting’. better and bet.ter,you A know,but», it's_ sti1.1—You don't‘ have‘ too athey .dealing' with uninte1lig_ible,you 1~:now.*rhat»T;y‘iii .'to do— everything he can. to ‘help hurnanity sojfti‘ ibody hold Ine.Iy just didn't want‘ that-I wanted rnuch; . . It's= difficult ‘ for _unintel1igib1e‘. I'rn‘ get-— 9 ting neadyp todgio back to Europe novir;I_n- fact I stay over‘ there all theV_tirne-And the VGer-— rnans,y.ou know:.l.Unintel1igible,'I told Danny, i can get _to Gerrnany- "I ‘told him that.'Causev they,sort of.,ve_ry meticulous "on things and- VVellt-,.they_ different in a sense‘ and they hard in a sense,too.SoIne of them; stiff back.They- applaud but they'rei not knovvn.for,rea11y doing like they been.doi'ng us late-ly.,St‘a‘nd«ing 3 ‘ ovations-‘and happiness on their faces.-That is What ’I'rn doing and I'n'.1 going ‘to do‘ it even more so,you k‘novv..I-Iave, to be sending for— yrnusician-s l~Way’ frorn ~Califo7rnia\and I ;got——_-I«t',s‘ r very expensive L toe do that irbut 7 I have to have ‘rny—+’I‘he tnusic-.has. to be up to-“a certain‘ 'qual_ity..Iy have "to. have .-that and that's .‘the reason Europe likes’ nie L because they say I although I‘ ‘xnalgev rny unintye-l1igib1e_(rnoney_). _' When; I coxne over ',therie,I'rn not just playing ‘ " \ . ‘e . E I ‘ 3_ \ -\’ . I \ ‘. ‘— ‘ ‘V ‘ "VVell,the whole thing will corne to light ifvvviei‘ _ ‘.2 VMN: «“f,"\‘vn<_<v;'s ‘:77; ‘:nA.,,‘-«Q. ,“_‘_.-. oi. ’ _\. '. for the rnoney.I care about peop1e.So actually and under these circurnstances,I rnean,the way it is this low profile up on a rnountaintop sornewhere on a porch would be nice but I- I really got to put out there what I'rn talking about.I have to do it-Because nothing else out there-Peop1e are double talking,they not sin—— cere.Now,I'n1 sincere and,you know,you- would think that the Creator or God or some thing would...he wouldn't have just let that happened.So I've been looking at that ever since I was a child-You know,sorne even the churches-the cathedrals caved in,ki1led some people.l\Tow,people should wonder what is God doing?I-Ie's waiting for some people who are sincere to change this planet-That's what he's doing.But total sincerity is hard to find- People have ulterior n:1otives,you know.Yeah, ulterior rnotives-I don't have no ulterior rno— tives.I know that people don't really have no—— thing.After that l\/Iexico thing I know it even more than the other.And nobody has any— thing on this planet.So then—If you're trying to do sornething worthwhile or sincere you do have sornething ‘cause you have sornething to work for and you have faith and I'rn tel- ling you it needs a lot of faith to override all these disasters that's happening to the people.You need a lot of faith.l\Tot faith be- cause of righteous(ness)but faith that there is a Creator and the only way is total sincerity. That's all it takes.Don't have to be righteous. Total sincerity-And I'rn sincere,you know-But I arn just one person versus five billion people.That's what it is.But I'rn not no guru to be telling folks to take poison and all that kind of stuff and killing thern.Not rne._ PI-I:So Sun Ra,you want to take some books to Europe with you? SR:VVell,it would be nice- PI-I:I—Iow does this book look to you right now? SR:It looks good but,you know,I have some more pictures that you haven't seen that would be better-Sorne spiritual pictures- PH:I have that one picture with you with the solar syrnbol in the one I sent you the other day.Is that acceptable? SR:You rnean the one on the cover of the book? PI-I:It's on the inside of the cover but there's also another one on the inside-It's a little dif-— ferent.Taken about the saxne tirne but it's a little different. SR:VVe1l,toInorrow I'n:1 going to send you some pictures.I have to—See,I'rn getting ready . to go to Chicago and I've been—and then we playing in Phi1ade1phia,Painted Bride or unin- te1igib1e.p1ace and I just been rehearsing and staying in and as I had so much to do with the harrnony.See,I'rn changing the band sound wise ‘cause I realize I got to have sornething that really reach people and I'rn doing that. I'rn putting it together that way with the songs they used to but it's going to be arranged differently. PI-I:VVho were you rehearsing when I called before? SR:VVel1,I was rehearsing the sax section one tiIne-VVeI1,botl_{:5 t_i:tne__rnost1y _I was rehearsing but theyiﬁrniigght 1T1a:re ’sou'f{ded like viic:1‘i°ﬁs if or Clarinets the ' way ‘I've got. them arrangedl VVe1l,I'rn tending to feel» that people really like .sV\ieet"’ notes. ‘ A .. ~ , PI-I:VVha-t _new compositions have L you moved ‘ x [1 into the?...‘ ’ ‘- ‘If ‘. , \ SR':VVell,I just tone ‘called Dis_eip1ine _101‘. I v andn I'.rn- going to do a lot -of n1y’Disciplines§ l ‘cause I hadn't ‘been playing rny» nurnbers been playing (my con1positions_ and now ’f'r-n ’ l l'ate1y.1\V/Iostlyy Fleteher I-Ienderson.I haven't 7‘ getting ready to play theIn,y_ou see.I'rn bring.—— I two‘ .off,,'F1eteher's ‘nurnbers.I"rn getting “ready «ing them back 'out.And I911 play tnaybe one or t l I I V \ PI-*I:Th‘at‘s ) beautiful- VVhat llparts of’ Gerrniany_ » to ‘play rnine. 5 . ‘i are you .playing ‘in? ___ SR:First place we'.re playingp is ‘Frankfort- PI-I;Are‘"yi,ou‘ playing at: Berlin .‘.Jazz‘ Fest—— L iva1?Is‘ that happening? ' ~ — ' SR:That happens‘ in» the surnrner tiIne._VVe played‘ there last‘, year. PI-Ip:So [you're going to /spend a vveek in ' Frankfurt?1 ‘\ ‘ \ ' ’ SR:Frank.furt,I think vére'1l—rnaybe-—vve-used to play, there two . nights, but ‘ rnaybe one.V\_/.’e- probably going‘ to play in Berlin again but then_ I"rn playing?-we playing in'Be1giurn a week. . i ~ g A‘ "V 4 ” ' « PI.-I:..For ' a ‘whole SR:I tried to‘ cance1_eit,you—. knowgbut’ they” ' r In-iQ.v‘ed 1 their’; davtesf . PI-I.:..So it's 'going to VVQ.I,’l{)Ol_1t-YC)L1 playing: g s’ev_er°al.ecities i-n’ABe1giurn ‘over thee seven days? \ _.SRv:Yeah,seVe’r.al‘ cities-/Xrid Belgiurn really" goes all. out,you l<now-They" really ‘advertise-— 1 ing-They ’ really like. . ;tA1l‘ the .European K coun"_-‘- _ . tries‘ really’ pinpointing'n1e now for what I»'1n .' sayinggyou .knovv,about;a'b'out the Creator about things,'about- equations.-,Yo'cu knoWe,y ’ everything‘ e1sethey've -tried and, you .have to ; try equat'ions.'Ever.ything they've tried. i i P_I-I:I-Iow's‘ Space "Is //the i V’ I e i A SR:I'rn‘ held .up because -I try7 s;.o_h’a1‘:d to find-n _ . a place to_.~shoW ther 35nirn(pr—in_t)and I've’ be‘en_.e- *unsuccesful. ' "V " J./f , API-I:Yo'u~'ve,\don’e sorne‘ ire—editing with that V - rnovie‘? V ' ' ' ~ ‘ * 4éR:I ‘ha’:-ven't beeny able anything’ .'Cause'. / «it's 351i1rn and I cou1»dn'tL—r‘1e/ver carlget a date with these places to show it.It's quite Jfrustratin\g,you kno’w;A lot" of people be say—-= c ‘ingl they going to help me out-'—_the schools.’ V. And -they always fall through'.- ' ‘ A’ PI-I':’I-Ia\.}e you thought about “putting that out , L f f " on videocassette? - e g u iSR$’Yea‘h,but .Igo,t 'toi put- it togetherﬂ-and see‘ V What I/‘ got, first.'Cause I got the «rnaterial here. "and it would be; beautiful bu,t I'n:1 handicapped p ibecause I ~d'or_1't have; the prlnoney‘ to rent the studio for a week’ or soniething ‘that, I, can I 7. "7! 54" "‘_'."'-T}ar«|“ ' \. xv ;.""('.' 4 . rs‘-fl ‘ - .1- 9: PI-I:VVhat about -Japan?Are you going to be H heading over there next year? SR:No,Japan has waited all these years and jr never had rne over there so I don't Want to go- PI-I:You don't want to go now-VVas sorneone talking with you about doing that?A pro- rnoter perhaps? SR:VVel1,Japan has been right there-In fact, they were trying to get Ine to Corne over there by rnyself for six rnonths- PI-I:Rea11y?So1o piano and things‘? SR:Yeah,six Inonths-.-But I wouldn't take that 'cause'that rnean giving up the band- PI-I:They don't want to bring the band over? SR:l\To,they talked about it-they bring every- body else over there but they never brought rne over there. PI-I:I hope that Works out soxnetirne because I'rn sure the Japanese people would love to see you over there'.--under the right circum- stances. SR:VVell,it's alright but I'rn dealing rnostly with Europe- PI-I:By the way,did you—I sent you a tape about a rnonth or two ago with the stereos Duke E1lington(frorn 1932). SR:Yeah,I played that-That was nice. PI-I:Isn't that sornething?That was beautiful. It's really a lost treasure you rnight say. SR:Right.--.But you watch out for that record corning out,where we rnade a record with Phil Alvin , you know - The Blasters . PI-I:Yeah,when is that happening,now? SR:VVe1l,he said it's not coining out 'till _Jan— uary now ‘cause they wanted to give it a big bui1dup.That's what he said. PI-I:That will be wonderfu1.l\/Iight expose you to a whole new audience- SR:C)h yeah,we11 it would be a Iniracle if they don't be adding stuff on there,you know-I think they going to keep it just like it is ‘cause it's very,it's very nice. PI-I:Rona1d VVilson,I was talking with hirn and he said you guys were in the studio for what?Eighteen hours or so. SR:Yes,that's how 1ong.I sat at the piano for eighteen hours without getting up- PI-I:That's what he told us.I-Ie was ainazed and so were we.That is arnazing.That came out pretty We11?You pretty happy with that? SR:C)h yeah,it's very authentic,you know.I-Ie sang Brother Can You Spare ‘A Dirne-That's one of my favorite nurnbers and he's doing... Space Is The Place is on there,too.I-Ie's doing 9 ...Space Is The Place is on there,too-I-Ie's doing 1\/Iinnie The l\/Ioocher and The Ghost of Srnokey Joe and like that and Old 1\/Ian In The Ivlountain. PI—I:I-Iow did he contact you?I-low did he get u in touch with you about this? : l I : 4 F I SR:VVell,he walked in the place we were play- ing one night.They really didn't want to let him in because we was playing this exclusive p1ace,The Chestnut Cabaret.So I told Danny A (Thornpson)to tell thern to let hirn in,you know’.So he carne in and then he told Danny 1 about he wanted to make this record with rne.But he knew it was irnpossible so Danny told him he could speak to 1ne.VVhen he carne back there I told hirn alright. 1 PI-I:You got the rnusic book we sent you, I right?The book you lost out here- SR:Oh yeah,I got that. \ 4 PI-I:VVrappin’ It Up.I-Iow's that coIning?The Fletcher(I-Ienderson)arrangernent . SR:VVe11,I'rr1 going through-..VVait ‘till you here the band now and my special kind of harInonies.It brings out the melody even rnore ‘cause I...The way I was arranging when I first started writing when I didn‘tv ; know What I was doing.But -I was doing ex—-— actly what it unintelligible.Peop1e liked the % first band I had trernendously and I'rn get—- j ting back to the way I was writing then. 10 PI-I:Back in the 50's. I I I I PI-I:That sounds great.You're going to be adding more of those old compositions? SR:Right,I'rn taking all of thern and I'm changing just a little bit,just a little bit more unintelligible in some sort of way.But I'm going to play those cornpositions because people been asking me about them.“ PI-I: New . Horizons? SR:Right.And Saturn ‘cause they ask for that.Lot of teenagers been asking me about Saturn. -—n—-o-u--—-j¢—an--—n-——<——-nauoxn-—.———-—::——u-————-——o-——¢——n---unanx-.-————¢——.-—-a--an-.—-nu-——¢—-n-no SR:I might put out alburn that I‘ made in 1\/Iexico. PI-I: From ' 74? SR: (Indicates yes) PI-I:Is that a studio recording or a live recording you made down there? SR:At a theater.The Hidalgo Theater and we played the opera house there. PH:That's right and you also did some things on Ivliexican national television.Right? SR:That's right. PI-I:Do you have those videotapes? SR;No,I didn't get any of those but... PI-izsorneone must have those sornevvhere. 11 SR:Oh they ‘got theIn,you know.If the earth- quake didn't destroy thexn.It destroyed a lot of government bui1dings,you know- PI-I:Sun Ra,I'11 wait for your materials. SR:A1right,wel1 I'll get thern to you and I got a picture,too,where I'm being given a trophy by the Arnerican Governrnent. PI-I:The Arnerican Governrnent? SR:I rnean by the l\/Iexican Governrnent. PI-{:That's beautifu1.VVhat kind of trophy? SR:VVe11,it's sornething like a achievernent when they give it to people that's accom- plished things and it's a eag1e.Strange1y enough,for their heroes they always give thern a fallen eagle or soInething.Eag1e be heading down and that's what they give to n1e.And I got one for Space Ba1let.That's what they had on the rneta1,I mean on the trophy . PI-Izspeaking of awards,has Down Beat ever given you an award for the Hall of Faine? SR:l\To. PI-I:You've heard nothing from thern. SR:I haven't heard nothing frorn thexn about the Hall of Farne and I've heard nothing from them about the nurnber one band(award). PI-I:VVe wrote a letter about two months ago urging Down Beat to give you a trophy.SoIne kind of recognition there for that and-.- 12 rnaybe when’ you go to Chicago they rnight get sornething together- SR:Yeah,they Inight but you knoW,they on the Earth p1ane.I'rn going to get full credit from the Creator of the Universe ‘cause this is-l\/Ian's honor don't rnean nothing to me ‘cause they ain't got nothing that unintelli- gible except sharne,hurniliation and defeat.I don't need that.I'1l tell you that.And they don't have no understanding,you see,of spiritual things-And there's danger,you know. There's a lot of danger because of the fact that they're thinking the wrong Way-And that's what's doing this.VVhatever the forces are,they deterrnine(tape runs out then con- tinues)...It's just a matter of choices they Inake and the choices they rnake are not suitable for their own benefit ‘cause the Creator Wouldrather just get rid of thern,you know.l\/Iass burials and all that-People ought to Wake up.Terrible things happen out there. You rnean to tell rne they going to go on and try to rnake the best out of this kind of wor1d?They trying but it's not going to Work.I'rn telling you.Sincerity is what is needed on this planet . . . . . . .-VVe1l,the main thing just total sincerity,like I told everybody in the band.They been with me a long tirne but they have to really tighten up their seat-— belts now because I'rn getting ready to rnove forward.You have to be totally sincere.I say I'm not telling you like preachers tell you- That you going to be saved and all that.You have to be totally sincere.Don't care how long I been knowing you.Don't care how rnuch yo‘1_,i“d—one k f o—r_'—i'_1—1‘eV; —i{_5’fi‘ "If1ii’s"i':—’b*e“‘ sincere because then your sincerity will block your self destruct-All the people are on self de- struct a certain tirne and they have to be 13 / I I *"sin,c:eré:'1ike* 'nev’e-1: b_efore.i_t:'s“ t‘e1_*_rib,le,y_ouT L .v L know.L_i1<e%Jin the_vhead_li‘n,es ‘in. New.-v_York had » -% = A\B1Qv'vgFron1 ’H\e11j.That'sthe way 1-.,heyfc1e—’ 1, A scribed it-'I_‘he‘ I\/Iexic':anV.thiI_1g-A B1_ovv"~F‘ro_rn. » V .IfIefl- It's‘ 'dreadfu1!But _~anyWayL- . --I- been fhold.in°.g 4‘ back ‘and; standing back but» IL'rn ’g»et1:i'ng ‘r’ea'_d/y, _ ' toL1:>u1\:. \son'*1e‘ things out ythe_x‘e and I_'rnv 'going~ , to" send you these’ ’rec o,rd s. /» 7 '_ “ I’ . ~. .. I I * V - , 21;; ‘ I ' I E» ; - ‘ji 1 I > . f - .' A ‘:1; ‘ ' z ‘ I :1‘ T i‘. .' 7 PM V J ‘ _ , Sun iﬂRé1 Conveirsationt with Feter \ « ifH1in.ds...rSeptembﬂeri t . \r~ \ ‘ ’BO‘StOI)‘.: V ’ A o . - . »* - , PI5I:7I ‘called? the other day and you were up in ~ ‘ SR:Yes,,I Went up to Boston.T1_1at was for the‘ r videotape. Pi-I:VVhat‘s‘ going "on‘vvith,_Vthe tape? » SR:VVe1l,I'tn ‘putting it together‘ witih Space "Ié f The» Place’. i V t f ’ ’ ‘i f ‘PI-I:/\re# you taking excerpts" from Space Is. The Place, and putting it together with-the videotape_?= . ‘ L’ 5 ~ ' ‘ Sli:I'1?n itaking/the’ Videot'ape andrrnakiing it in; bfto excerpts-I?rn putting it on the’ spaceship.‘ »Th_e videotape of 'rne,~§;vhat's happeningn on the ‘ spaceship with the Abandi. ' - ' P-Hzsoﬂhovv is that coming? \ A _SR:VVell,I"ve ‘been__s1ight1y delayedi because ‘ _ I've ’been writing ev_erything,doing things for California "and I haven't ‘been able to really idoi both of theIn.So"it's ‘d‘_e1ayed.So Pat(Patric:k)is- here with me ‘and I'rn writing hin1._sorr1ehnew~ parts and everythinLg‘._'I‘hat's' what I was, doingfili today and that's!/w'hat.I'In" going to be doing _' tonight(chuck_les)and. that's. what ..I'.n1 going I to ~ be doing‘ tomorrow. f ‘A. LPI-Izsvoifthat tape ‘n:1ay-‘—){ou'_ going _to- put that _ - out next «year sorne tirnep you, think? iSR:iIvdAoin_'t think going-—_I'grn phesitatinng to I or A w t 15 ," . 4 put anything out 'cause I don't Want to waste tirne and the way this planet is I'd be Wasting tirne alinost to Inake any record or to play for people because I'rn a spiritual being and if I'rn not going to accomplish anything I'rn not going to waste my tirne-It might be too late to help this planet.Then again,Inaybe not- VVhatever it is,I'rn ready but they don't have no facilities or no—VVell,they can't take care of rne you rnight say.'Cause(as)a spirit being,I can't be out there teaching people on a shoe- string-Not anyrnore because it's not proper-If they want What I got they need to pay for it so I can help thern.And I could help thern, too-Quite a bit.But they have to be able to- Sorneone corning to this planet on a spiritual order,they should provide places for thern to stay and rnoney for thern to do their very best to try to help thern-That's the only way it can be done at this point- Conversation turns to the Italian I-Ioro re-— cordings and the possibility of thern being reissued at some point. SR:They're not going to do anything.You see, for a long tirne the different races used black rnusicians and didn't pay theIn-They paid thern off in dope and heroin and stuff.I got the full proof of it.And Billie Holiday didn't rnake nothing.They paid her off in heroin. Charlie Parker didn't Inake nothing,they paid hirn off and a host of rnusicians,they reduced thern down to be dope addicts and paid thern off in White envelope and they didn't have no rnoney-That was where some people used thern,you see,and put thern on that stuff for the sake of rnoney.And that's very bad.That should never have happenend in AInerica-But it did happen.It get to the point of taking Duke E1lington's Inusic,a lot of cornpositions he had and played and taking and durnped it in the East River(NeW York);’I‘hat is,it's not proper and that's the reason Axnerica is shaking now because they did a lot of things that wasn't proper-They did that and they used these rnusicians and built up a lot of things on the rnusician and didn't pay thern. Now,it's irnpossible for thern-1 don't see how they—-They can't get around that because the only thing they had was the Inusic that the rest of the world didn't have and they used and abused the people that rnade it.Didn't pay thern.Now,that is not—They rnight think they don't know God but it don't need to be one if you got sornething else Watching in it's p1ace.And you do have sornething that is watching,too.That is very bad-'VVhen I look at the different things that Arnerica has done, I'rn afraid for Arr1erica-'Cause this is pay day. PI—I:It just crossed my rnind about the I-{oro things‘. SR:Yeah,that's very nice but this rnan didn't keep his.word either.I-Ie didn't pay us-I-Ie didn't keep his contract- PI-I:I-Iave you thought about taking some tapes over and just offering some tapes for sale and selling them to the highest bidder perhaps? Sornething like that. SR:VVel1,it take up my tirne.See,I'rn a crea- tive,spiritual artist and I'n1 busy studying about the Creator.I don't have tirne to be out there doing that ,on this commercial level. I've had sornebody else to try to do it. Danny(Thon:1pson)and other people . They Weren't succesfu1-They don't want to pay us 17 f ;l no rnoney-They rnight want to give us a thousand dollars to rnake a record- ,' PI-I:That's not too substantial. { SR.:I'rn looking at things frorn a religious point of View now-Although I don't know ‘ what's going to happen now-But I need rnoney to continue Iny,what I got to do for peop1e.Uninte1ligible out there.But I can't be ‘ doing it on no shoe string no more longer because I got to have sorne rnore rnusicians I and they have to get off their jobs and leave ; their hoines in order to do that.Now,they 1 can't——uninte1ligib1e they can't corne out there like they beginners or nothing like that-They ; have to be paid-And I need the very best at { this point-Experienced rnen.And that's it. See,that's what I need-That's what I got to have- * PI-I:VVel1,I'll tell you,I'll be checking on the hotel and we'll see what we can do with that. SR:That's the rnajor—the essential thing-Look into that for rne and see what we can do. home tornorrow. SR:I’l1 be here.I got to rehearse tornorrow. PI-I:()K,I'11 give you a quick call tomorrow night and let you know what I find out-I'1l call these places.I'11 call these couple of hotels and get the details. I PI-I:I'11 do that.So you think you may not be I I J SR:A1right,good-I'l1 be expecting. PI-I:OK,I'll cal1,you know,about 11:00 your 18 ~— V»-. -_ ..... ..__. ._.-..».. tirne,11:15.You should be done with re-— hearsal about then? SR:Oh no,you can call at 10:OO-You can in- terrupt rehearsal 'cause this is Very impor- tant.Uninte11igib1e my plans. PI-I:C)K,wel1,I'l1 call you tomorrow night then, Sun Ra,OK? SR:/Xlright- PI-I:You take care. SR:OK,see you. 19 Sun Ra Conversation with John Hinds...October 31,1991 . . . . . . . . . .. San Francisc:o,Ca1ifornia . . . . . . . . . . . . I I i I I Sun Ra:Jazz rnusicians don't Inake no rnoney. l\/Iillions of dollars have been rnade off of jazz. I I John I-Iinds:That's what I was going to say. I All these cornpanies have been keeping it. ’ That's Why the jazz Inusieians haven't got it- VVhy do they keep recording it?Especia11y the big cornpanies- I I SR:They stole a lot of rny songs. I j-—1j.j:.:.——._—___..Z__.._.._.:1.—.-.__—g_:j__..__j.:__—...j..;.._.—.._.—:j_—_._._.__.__.—_—_j——. JI—I : That ' s too bad - A&1\/I didn' t keep their I I commitment . They dropped that whole thing . The %1\/Iasters of Jazz,right? _ no nioney so I never tried for it.I knew they wasn't going to do it.I-Iad high hopes they would give rne sorne rnoney.I don't have I I I I I I SR:I knew they never Was going to give rne I none- g . —_.j.‘1_—.—-————-—:-—_..__—_..__—.____.;:.____—.:.jjjj:.._._j_—._—...—.:...:j_...._.......—_:.:.__.._.— prised that A&I\/I. . .These companies seern to _; jurnp out and do soxnething with jazz and then they cut it all loose. I‘ JI-I:But I was sorry to hear that,but not sur— ) SR:The tragedy is they don't have the rnusic- The tragedy is I held back the best rnusic.The I Inusic that should be out there(is)not out 20 there-'Cause I knew they Was going to rob rne so I didn't put it out there-I got sorne things,you'd be surprised if you heard thern. JI-I:I'd be arnazed.You've played rne sorne tapes that I haven't been able to hear the who1e(thing)and you've said listen to this and then sornething happens and got to go out or soInething.I've heard some incredible things. And I probably haven't even heard what you're talking about-AInazing things.Tone science,you know- SR:I had to hold everything back.So actually the World has never heard rne p1ay-'Cause the best tapes haven't been put on a record- JI-I:Just put it in your archives. SR: Yes . JH:Stash thern away.That's too bad,you knoW.VVe all suffer because of that-At least -personally speaking. SR:I felt. unintelligible selfish people and that's What these people are. JI-I:You felt that when you talked to thern? SR:I rnean I feeling that a whole lifetirne thatg they wasn't going to push this kind of rnusic. That they could steal it.Can't nobody play it Without rne so they can't give it to nobody else so---just be 1ost,that's all-Sorne people are going to awake to the fact that they don't have the rnusic.That's Why they Want rne to corne to New England Conservatory and teach- the musicians . 21 ) » JI-I:VVel1 yeah.They'd like to see it passed on a little bit- SR:But they don't deserve it so.-. JI-I:VVe11,not real1y-I rnean,where have they been all these years? SR:I'rn going to stay out and play my low _profi1e-Act like-—and play the gaxne that way. They don't Want rne(to have)no rnoney.They can't have the rnusic-Give it to another country- JI—I:That would be justifiable. SR:Give it to South Africa-They got rnoney- JI-I:(Laughs)They got rnoney.’I‘hat would be sornething-To have a cape of diarnonds(to Wear)-I'd like to see that. SR:I'd’need about ten thousand bodyguards. I don't Want a lot of Wealth 'cause you ain"t.-. JI-I:VVel1,that's true-Yeah,sorneone's always trying to take it- _;..._..:..:.—_:.___.:j_.._...—___.:._...—_—:—__.......__—._—..——j_:.1.._.—_.——_j.—..—._—:.._—.1.: JI-I:Did they notify you at all,A&1\/I? SR:I didn't bother with theIn-I've been trying to play a Whole lifetirne.Uninte11igib1e the planet like I don't exist-And so when they try to block rne,I let them block rne.Deliberate1y. I helped them to block rne so they don't have the rnusic.Unfortunately they don't have it- VVhat they have is what I put out there 22 according to" what I knew they was going to do wrong-So I put sornething out there that they can't use-That cannot be used or cannot be Written. JI-I:Sorne arnazing things on that last record- There's sornething like seventeen Ininute long that you haven't been able to do that on a record,at least a record cornpany besides Saturn.But I forget What it Was called but it Was just fantastic-Like a "free irnprovisation", everyone 1istening-You start with a synthe- sizer.Oh,it Was just trernendous-But who can copy that?Can't copy it. SR:I can't copy it rnyself. JI-I:Sorne arnazing things-But it cannot be copied-You knoW,you cannot copy it..-Don Cherry did sorne nice things,too-Nice to hear hirn but they dropped every,body-..They never really rnade a cornrnitrnent or kept their corn- rnitxnent to... SR:I didn't expect thern to-I knew what they Was going to do before they did it. JI-I:I can believe that.I Was hoping they Wouldn't do What I thought they would do, too.But it happenend.Like,the Whole 1\/Iasters of Jazz...-Two Cd's,tWo records and 1\/Iasters of Jazz is(gone)- 23 H‘ Sun Ra Conversation with John Hinds...October 31,1991 . . . . . . . . .. San Francisco,California . . . . . . . . . . . Sun Ra:It's a stage set here-Everything is set like unintelligible a stage.And sornebody plays things here for people to think certain things- De1iberate1y.'I‘hey don't want thern to know the truth so they just p1ace.--It's in that pa- per(The Inforrnation Book)that I got-The one they just gave rne.I rnean I just showed it to you-About they placed sorne things in the Pyrarnid With sorne cornputers down in there. l\/Iillions of years ago-And these cornputers influence peop1e-You know,when I was a teenager I said they had a big Inachine that deterrnining people's destiny.That's what I said. John I-Iinds:VVhat did people think about that? SR:They never saw it- JI—I:You wrote that down but didn't reveal it- SR:Right-'Cause people haven’t,their rninds haven't been opened up to the truth,you know.It's a whole stage set up and every- thin.gs fixed up like that peace conference in l\/Iadrid.It's fixed up.It's not Inen doing it.It's soxnebody fixing that stage up for thern-See What they will do . . . . -.I look in amazement at what's happening.They're not aware of what they been used(for),you knoW-Sorneone fix that peace conference-They want to know if they can get all the leaders together,ki1l all of them at one tiIne-And they got thern where they can just drop a bornb and kill and get rid of Israel and the Arabs at the sarne tirne- Get rid of all the leaders and then they have peace.But they sitting over there in grave danger-.-They in grave danger-Let's see,Bush got out of there-I-Ie corne back here.VVell,he knew it(was)too dangerous to be over there- .So if you can't put it on hirn,whatever they do,he say whatever they do is a1right.I-Ie get- ting it off of hirn-I-Ie say whatever they de-— cide he'll back it up.That's what he's saying. So therefore they can't put it on hirn.In the rneantirne thern space forces sitting back looking at peop1e-Looking at peop1e,ready to get rid of all of theni at one tirne-That's the reason—I-Ience that fire in Oak1and.'I‘hey want to see What they can do-They know that fire can do it-And you can't put it on nobody. Can't trace it.But they got the power to start flash fires-Thern space beings be sitting back waiting to see what can they do.In fact I--. The other night,I Inean the other day I was riding in a car and I saw sornething like a drearn' I saw VVashington DC invaded by sorne rnilitary dressed in black uniforrns and had gold on sleeves go around the neck.I saw it just as clearly and I woke up(and)I thought it had happenend-'Cause it was so c1ear.And the people standing back aInazed.1\Tow,I didn't see where they caxne froIn-They just showed up rnarching(in the)street in VVashington DC- They Inarched up to a center of the city, travelled right there and they just did their irnilitary forrnations in front of everybody. VVasn't no soldiers or nobody to stop thern. Police were looking(and)people lined up there were looking at thern.Utter1y arnazed that they caught Arnerica cornpletely napping.I saw that.I know a white rninister down in the Bible belt say,"You know,thern terrorists are really a threat to Arr1erica-And they don't knoW"he said,"but they think it can't happen here but it can-"That's What the Ininister said.I-Ie said it can happen here-So don't play thern cheap- JI-I:That was on TV or you talking to this?--. SR:On TV.Down in the Bible belt in Texas. And he say,"They think We ignorant ‘cause we down in the Bible belt but sornething is getting ready to happen to Arnerica-So I know they not going to listen but I'In going to say it.It's soniething getting ready to happen here and it ain't good either.I know they're not going to believe Ine so therefore I don't have nothing to worry about.They're not going to believe-But it can happen here-" I saw a neWscast,they Was speaking just- showing sorne print up there(on the screen) say that Britain despise us—-Grreat Britain said it,that place is rnined clown on the conference hall is Inined.BloW the place up.Said the ter- rorists. got it fixed,like they said it was great danger-You knoW,that Was up there in print (Referring again to the l\/Iadrid conference).C)n cable,the cable neWs.Didn't get in the news- papers.Just up there on the cable- Eddie Gale:This is cable here(referring to the tv on in the roon1),CNN. SR : Yeah , but rny cable , I get a channel Where it's print.l\Tobody says anything-It's just print . But I haven't seen it here . JI—-I:(To Buster Srnith who has just entered the roorn)You got your Pearl's(Pearl Drurns)out With you?Your black Pearls. Buster Srnith:1\To,no.I just brought rny cyIn—- bal(s). JI-I:OK,they got thern out here.that's good- BS:Yeah.That's the way to do(it).Don't carry thern too rnuch anyrnore- JI-I: That's nice. BS: Yeah,you know. JI-I:You're the last one to get out of the club. Packing those things up. BS:Yeah,and then carrying thern,you know- If you can't help it.Sorne cats take thern. JI-I:You knoW,Lester Young used to play drurns,right‘?But he gave thern up because, you knoW,a11 the other rnusicians Would be leaving and taking all the girls(Laughs).So he decided that he'd get another instrurnent ~ going . That‘ s true - SR:VVel1,he's lucky they taking all the gir1s-I-Ie should have let them girls a1one.That was the beginning of his ruin. JI-I:That's another story,right?(Laughs) SR:That story haven't been to1d,you know. JI-I:I irnagine you saw Lester Young p1ay,Sun Ra,right? SR:No,he was over in another dirnension. JI-I:So you never crossed paths? that out for- rne»?"C‘,o1ern/an I-Iavvkins in thej 1. ) sarne book says;yo.fu kno*w_*—,1ike~vvhe_n_‘he was a isR:'No- a IJI-I:(_Did)You Ed‘dgi’e?_DidA’yroLi ever ‘see ihirin? \ EG:\I’A sawv I’1iI1’1'I_)lé).7‘VV1;1ei1‘:1 I‘ 1was a tieenager‘. In ,- ,Broo1§:1yn fat the 4Coronet.'»I‘he_re Wash a club ca1»led_the Continental in B1¢oc7>k1yn-- SR :.VV-elllf, I’ F stajred away ._ frorn hixn ‘ becailse‘, 'yo1-._1 " knoW,in' Chicago he was very Apoapuglar in*Chi— cago ‘I'd ‘go and see. .hirn sornetirne -but ‘I stopped" going to see 'hirn7 after sornething _ happenend in Chicago’-’iTurned jagainst, JI-I:Rea1.1yV?'VVihat. __that?C\Zo1i.11d yon‘ .pinpoin1:) _ that‘?Just' a fee1ing?": SR:I didn't see it‘ happeni but .ac.co'rci1ing to people nthat .was his’ fans,sorne,bod_y, asked him to ‘play "sornethi:'ng and ‘he spit. on .the'i‘n-. JI-I:()I<,th‘at'ss ‘\a;,I.s1:.o':ryi.v'So- Chica,go« kind ‘of Went, "a little ‘sour on hirn_ after tha_t_point'.. m g SR:Yeah.They did “1’\/‘lilies. Davis the sarne wayfi, ‘ 1\/Iiles. Davis ~didn"1: "shovv_,_‘up on one_ engage:-x brgnent and’ ‘that’ was it for him in Chicago.‘ To It's a strange’ tovvn.So'i,1ne-tirne_ I rniss Chicago. ‘It's 'a'_ very .strange eplace ‘but it's a big», ‘city. It's 'rnore cosrnopolitan ’than~ New Yor1\<-Itv's‘ _. bigger» _where you‘ /can; stretch gou’t..rnore..New- ' York have ‘to go Aup‘.‘It’ can't ‘stretch :.out-" JI-I:There's' a book. out on I-Ia\b>vi—— " kins and they ‘repeat‘edV'what ‘he Was._ saying ‘about. Sun Ra-.I-Ie said,"Sun’R“a.x'vrote the only music I could never play-"-He‘p“1a3‘red with‘ Sun Ra in’Chicago and he asked‘,"WVVo:u1d~ you writ‘e V28. A kid anddsornevbody. carne up-_to‘ hirnj and said, i"I—Iey‘,can -you read I1'1LIS:i‘C?"]."1e kind of thought. Ivvho _can't»read rnusiC?I Ineanuv he was,li_ke,ten .years ‘old or ‘s.ornethi~ng‘_'playing his C rnielody __tsaxophone.So,A he's a great sight readertandt ‘stuff and he played r-with Sun Ra ‘in’ Chicago and Sun\-Ra's -. talked about this but- I read this in this 'book,too and he ‘said that Colernan . Hawkins played t‘v{rith hirn . and- - .VVas it "I e-Re— ‘ ~ rnernber A19¥"i'1?’ * t ‘ ? at 1. . SR:It ‘was sorrre song Awas playi‘ng.I-Ie wanted‘ me to‘ writer it . out for him. ‘ » i JH:And he never could play it-I-Ie- said»,"That's the only rnu"sie.,I Could never p1ay."Lov“ed the ’ ‘Way Sun -Ra played-Real1y~ respeetedi hirn,» I ’ . Couldn't,for gsorne reason the just [couldn't get ’ the syn‘copation'.or' sornething-VVhatever it was,.I haven't seen the Inusic:-‘I can't be "sure _but he said,t'j'I remember that-"I-Ie heard‘ Sun _ Ra and he rerneInbered.that.That's in a book, ﬂ e "Song of the'I-Iawk,just7 earne out-Good book, " 9 ‘-“1i‘oo..~Buti I always look ‘in ‘the back(eheck the t ’ index) ,a1ways 1*ook(for’)Sunl ’Ra.OK,page- . . , Take it” to the Xeroxj 1naehine(rna1<e, a co.'p_y)’ and put it in» my bo.ok,you knoW.there"s trnore _ infor1nation.I colletct that-Keep it all’ together- VVh’en you seeV,»st-uff_ that'.s what I do‘,I just i " jump on it‘ right "then or else you ’go(say),~*»"’i: ".Yeah,I‘/ rernernber I -saw that.VVhere -e did i I °‘ see .that?"But' that's saying /a’1ot(Referring'~back is I to‘ the Colernan I-Iavbvkfjins story), i I ‘ ‘EG:That‘.book just» eazrne out; JI-I:AYe.ah,bSongVof the I-%-Iavs_'rk.It’s a_x»'nazir.1ge- . Looking back "there you see—There_'s a . few references to’ Sung Rain» there-It's really aInaz~ing'.It's just rnind boggling where, Sun V 2e Ra's narne shows up.I've seen it in(pro)wrest— ling news1etters(VVrest1ing Then And Now). EG:In wrestling newsletters?(Laughs) J}-I:This one guy was saying(Evan Ginzburg- Editor of VVTN)hope Sun Ra feels better.I-Ie's wilder than any wrestler.]E-Ie goes(says)rnost of you people(readers of VVTN)don't know who Sun Ra is probably but I'm telling you he's wilder than any wrest1er.Yeah,I've got that-I rnade a copy of that,too.So I'm always looking and it's just rnind boggling every--- EG:The different places and different con- cepts- JH:Yeah,if you look in every rnagazine that cornes out just about—especia1ly rnusic and certainly other kinds,I look through the whole thing-Read them of course-Read the whole thing but you look and it's just rnind boggling. EG:You got a Sun Ra reference. JI-I:C)h yeah-In every rnusic rnagazine probably that cornes(out).That's,rnaybe,a slight exager-— ation but not rnuch.It's just rnind boggling- VVho was saying?.-.Jarnes Newton and David l\/Iurray in this issue of Down Beat was say- ing,talking about Duke Ellington and Louis Arrnstrong and Sun Ra-They were talking about hirn and saying these are people that have never given up their integrity and we really respect the1n.These are our—these are the Inasters-And I go(say)there it is again- Boo1n!David l\/Iurray says Sun Ra is a rnaster, you know-Bang! EG:I'rn glad "V to hear David aknowledge it. JI-I:Yeah,he's frorn Oakland.And Jarnes New- ton,you know.A flute player and they were talking about—-that was . . - EG:VVell,any cats been on the scene that any tiIne,they should know that. JI-I:They should,yeah they really should. EG:If you been on the scene since the 50's or 40's or something like that you should- they should,you know,they should know. JI-I:Yeah,oh yeah,yeah or else there's some- thing really lacking.But every rnusic Inagazine there's usually some reference to-.. EG:A lot of these new stars,they don't know nobody-You ask these cats,they' don't know who you talking about. JI-I:Yeah,like you were talking about Kenny G or sornething like that.I-Ie wouldn't,you know..-That stuff is really hard to listen to, you know.It really is hard to listen to ‘cause it's just so..-You know what's going to be said before it's even said,you’know.It's just so...That's very boring.VVell,I know what he's going to do in the next Ininute-I know(what) he's going to do in the next five rninutes and it's going to end and... EG:And that's it . JI-i:Yeah,it can be pretty boring. SR:I wish I could hear the real rnusic now. JI-I:I-Iear what real rnusic Sun Ra? SR:The music I didn't release. JH:Oh yeah,wel1 if they'd ‘Wake up- SR:These forces don't want thenri to wake up. they got the world exactly the way they want it. SR:The Clarence Thornas case was very inter- esting-About that Anita I-Iil1.I Wondered what happenend. EG and JI-I:VVhat do you think? SR:VVell,one clue of What happened-VVhen she said that Thomas told her,"VVho put this pu- bic hair on my drink?"I began to research frorn that point of view.I found in Africa that's ‘one Way Wornen get rnen under their power.Put the pubic hair on the drink- EG:No kidding. JI-I:Is that right? SR:In one of thern African countries.That's the Way they do it.They use voodoo.They use the pubic hairs to do it so they Inight as say well,that rnust What she did.That's the reason the judge(Thornas)asked What—who put the pubic hairs on rny drink? EG:I Wonder how he knew What kind of hairs they were?(Laughs) ' SR:But anyway,it's the key...There's only one 32 thing that stood out in the testirnony-the pu- bic hairs. EG:They ‘sure did. SR:It has some significance because sornething happenend in Nigeria about them pubic hairs. Sorne Wornen wassinging a song that the sol- diers didn't like so they cut their pubic hairs off and made thern eat it-In Africa.And say if you don't eat it,wel1,and they took their bay- onets and everyone who Wouldn't do it they split uninte11igible(1<i1led thern)- JI-I:Eat and be rnerry,I guess- SR:Yeah right-Either(that or)e1se.So there- fore,the pubic hairs was very,very irnportant in the case.That"s What they did-And that's what they did-And that didn't get in the newspapers,you see. JI-I:That passed Ine by-I didn't notice that. .(EG starts laughing) SR: It didn't get in the newspapers. JI-I:I would have remembered that- EG:Too deep. SR:Because it was the soldiers that suppos-— edly didn't like the song they were singing- EG:Dig that.VVhat a Way to rebe1.(Laughs) SR:And the reason it didn't'get in the paper because Fe1a,it was at his house.I-Iis Inother was there and..- EG:VVho's house? SR: Fe1a,rnusician- EG:C)h yeah,with the rnany wives and instru- rnents and the whole thing. SR:It was a song they had on record that the soldiers didn't like ‘cause it was making fun of the soldiers sorne kind of way.And they carne to his house and they told hirn to corne out so he carne out so they threw a rifle up to hirn and say you got anythingto say to us?I—-Ie threw it back to thern and said no-So then he went back into the house and got these girls he had in there to corne out and sing this song that the soldiers detested.So like one rnan they shot up there and they threw their bayonets up there and they carne up there and they took his rnother and threw her out the window-Broke her leg and they attacked hirn and took the bayonets and they broke‘his leg-That's what it was about- JI-I:That was heavy-I do rernexnber that.Yeah, I think the song was called Zornbie(that's co- rrect). SR:Sornething about rnaking fun of the sol- diers. JI-I:I think they were calling thein zoxnbies. SR:And they would hear the song-But I know it was on LP. JH:Yeah,it is.I got it somewhere. SR:And that's the reason the soldiers say any thing you got to say to us?So he went out 34 and got the ‘girls to corne and sing the song they hated-And that's when they carne up there and stripped the girls naked and pulled the pubic hairs out and say eat it or else. And one black Inan frorn Arnerica was there say,"You know,you all should be ashaxned of yourself doing thern girls like that-You bar-— barians you-"And they said,"You from s Arnerica, huh?Corne over here and tell us what to do."So they took him and hit one blow on his head and split his sku1l-'I‘hey good at that,you k'novv-There's a certain way to strike the skull to splits so they split his skul1."And so you don't corne over here telling us what to do.You frorn AInerica,huh?"They know a lot of things over in Afri.ca-They got cures for a lot of ailrnents that folks don't have over here-But they know those things are very potent and they rea1,too-I went to an ernbassy,I forget the narne of the eInbassy-Seeing about playing an African country.In VR/ashington DC went to an eInbassy.1\/Ie and sorne Inore fellows and I forget What the ernbassy was.Anyway,they was sitting up there and they was listening to rne and I had some writeups(reviews)and things-I had a book-C)penend the book up and a little piece of paper flew out and landed on one of the diplornats so he vvas---jurnped up and shook hjsself.Did everything he cou1d,you know,'cause they thought it was voodoo or sornthing-I-Ie had a fit.I-Ie jurnped up and down.I-Ie was really afraid-This little piece of paper ﬂew out there-So they know.-- JI-I:And they probably thought,Sun Ra and the paper flew at rne.Did they kind of say end of rneeting at that point? SR:I\/Iight as well sayv.I left then. .COI](;V(:3‘I'Sia“lZi.OI1; 1 \Bu$ter ~'Srniith Peter :Hi%nds.'.?.A171gust 1:7 , 1 987 : . . e. . . . , in CorntiTnued from i 29 . .g . ; .f. .r ; V. . '. .* ' \ ‘PI-I:So you {irould A use tvvo.-'rn’ic,rophones?’ BSSVS/e'd use itvvfo ‘rnicrophones,right.Yeah,and » that would* be sufficie-nt—'—'(2ausee most, of that stuff‘was'_ organ trio and stuff and AW‘e'd vuse two mics‘ and .you could bring the whole? jtlhingi in~.V\_7e had a. big VS/,ol1ensak’1:hen‘rbut those ‘tapes—‘—th'ose. were rnostly _reel to reel; They're a _~1itt1e. hard fto keepp to_gether,too.* You got-to‘ put. a ‘special effort on those.’ ‘thing"s'-You need i‘ a rnetalﬁbox 'to lockrthern up in ‘cause a cat gets int and then a tape '1break‘sand;'you__ l<novv'.;.’so's a lot of stuff -that you tape. that,yo«u ’kn\oW,just down the river. At the atirne rny’ brother didn't‘vknow _and he used"t‘o practice onp a—lot ~of nay stuff.I_'d_ find out later and turn or1.a tape»and you might 'hear. Oscar Denard playing a.bo_u_t‘ eight bars‘ _ ‘ and there sornebody. corne in_ and p\ractic‘in'g a drurn~ ro.l1.So. that's how those went». , PH:Sp‘ea‘king of your brothe’r(1\/Iarvi,n_ ‘Bug_—«—“ a1oo' Sn1ith),vvjha/tfs he been up to?‘ e BS:VVel1,:he".s\ been ‘ Working 1dyai1y,you « ' And hefs had a fevv gigs.C)ne_- or (two and? other than that it's been sort of .quie1_:\. Then we did one gig here that wash nice.P1ayeq1 to‘? ge‘ther=.l\/Iar\‘iin's quite" a .drurnirner,you- know-. Yeah,_he's "quite a: drurnrner.I-ie's quite a A i druIn:rne’r.I’-Ie'"s the kind of cat }that.if he. don't——I=-Ie don't need to practice .everyday but- ' he still cornes out r_1ice,_you l<.now.I—Ie don't . \ . have to practice - everyday. 36 /1 \. PI-It:I-*Ie's Wofking Ida)?‘ j'obi bit novisi/? ‘BS:Yeah,he's Woif‘1<ing,1i1<.e—AtV_.present he's notﬂ I on theﬂidayh job but he's been/'vvorking it for V a ‘vvhilegyou ‘knovv:-.VV1'1.eni I'm off from Sonny I._ Vdo the saxne »thing.eI go Vvitlfl hirn.VVe' one ternporary se15v.ice’s;So,"you l(now,itfs‘ better thannt "at blank-.But right inovv the is «get- ting a little busy-}s’o it's‘ even hard for me to ‘take’ a- ternporary“ "c:’a\use ieveifyvvveek Ifrn out- ‘two,three days. ‘ " ’ ' " L i ' ‘ 1 PI,-I; I“ guess he's aware_ of -thee.Archie i Shepjj ‘albuxn, that carnie ' out that he's playing. on, “._right_? ‘ ’ ' \ ' ' ‘ "B‘S:AVVhat alburn is *'that.?'VVe isof‘tXVof avﬂraiﬁeg of- it ‘but«.-.‘ ” s ’ i " _ \It's’ on the Enja 1abe1.And I eganft recall i the title off hand but that's 'sufficien1,:‘.It's brand new..And ‘you _go in to Tower Re— __ cords 'in‘1\/Ianfhatten you should ‘probably find it- I ‘ g I g . ~ \ i h "'BS.:OI<,Enja-.‘~I'11' tellhwhiinfi that's,‘ithe new Archie i 'Shep~p' "thing he's oI,i-Yeah,gl\/Igarvin sound . real i good ,with Archie Shepp,rnan"." PI»-I_:AVV,e1I",I'd‘. like to hear‘ that —a.1buI_n..I haven't is seen it out.he'r'e.Bu_’t it's just a rnatterv of rne just rhissing on it. ' ' * " ' BS:You've been readfinguabougt it’ in the re?- _Cord Inagazines- ' ' - PI-I:3Yeah,I've‘ seen an .ad and_ I‘ a’ record “ review» of 'it,t‘oo; ‘ ' ’ ‘ “ ' V _BS:Review good?» PI-I:VVel1,it was pretty short,you know.It was just a couple lines-So it really didn't say any- thing of—and it didn't rnention l\/Iarvin or anything. BS:Archie was here I guess rnaybe five or six rnonths ago and he played Sweet Basil and he had a terrible review.A very bad review.I think he had an operation on his rnouth-I heard he was in Europe.Got a report that they was touring Europe because—I don't know if you know the bassist-VVhat's his narne?I—Ie died while Archie was in Europe- Died on the bandstand I heard. PI—I:You're not thinking of Cameron Brown are you? BS:No,not' Catneron Brown.Used to be with JJ Johnson and thern and-.-I saw hirn in I-lol- land when I was there-I-Ie was living in 1-101- land and he's a very nice cat,rnan.Very pop- ular in I-Iolland.I*-Ie died while Archie was over there.They must have sent Archie over as a single and they put the rhythm section with hirn ‘cause you got a lot of black cats over there,drurnIners and stuff that work the rhythrn section.And his name is-.-I can't get his narne together but he died over there and I heard of Archie was over there-I-Ie was working with Archie when he got sick- PI—I:You were rnentioning,and I've heard this before too,th'at Archie's had some problems with his jaw or sornething like that. BS:I-Iis lip.The hole in his lip-In the inside PH:Because sornetirnes I've heard hirn play and he's had,it seetns like,intonation pro- b1erns,you k'.novv-V\/here he's had a hard tirne staying in tune- BS:VVe11,that probably was the reason.I-Ie had an operation on his unintelligible-/xnd I think it's supposed to come out—I guess it carne out alright but he had a hole on inside.And that's why he held the mouthpiece funny.You know,he sort of held it to the side.NoW,I think he had the operation and that caxne out a1right.I don't know What the resu1ts——what the cause of it Was or what but I know that is what happenend to him. A PH:Because I've heard some things where" it's (his intonation)been kind of erratic and I've heard about this problern for seven or eight years but never got the cornplete story. BS:I-Ie had it for quite a While and they just went and operated on hirn. PI-I:VVev11,I hope that helps hirn out there. BS:Yeah,he's a good cat. PI-I:Oh yeah,he's a real good guy. BS:I-Ie's a educated—-I-Ie's an all around cat. Archie's been around a long tirne. PH:Oh yeah.I know he's taught up at VVes—— lyan College. BS:Right,he's up in.-.he's up around New Hampshire sorneplace.I talk with Archie every now and then.I-Ie calls here sometime and speak and ask how the fainily is from up that way but I can't just think of the college. LPI-.I:I-1Aovv's the” band sound“ing?Yout‘vs«'rork‘ir1g one sorne ne.vv_ rnateixfial‘? “ .v C T ‘ " BS:Last Week we 1ayved»Gershwin.. PI-I.:C)'h,you 'Ge_rshWin'; - ‘ BS_:Sj;hce' We saw you _vve- b-.e¢_;r1 doing the E11- V ington book. You. hear «tha"t?_ ‘ PI-I':Su‘re,.y‘o_u've beent‘C1o.ing' that for_ a 'while. VSoI_ne things- _ ‘ V _‘ ' » . g e V BSg:’TIi/atgvvas. a‘ feature thing."1‘.'he elli_ngt'on book and the Bvasie book and Fletcher “I-Ien—— T derson-VVhic‘:h(is)that's about our‘ 'book,rea11y..j; g And no\}v*1ast vveek‘ ovveedid the G»ershi>vin.vBut ' when We'ha\?e specialle requests go: i'nt’o,‘the" _ poershwin ‘stuff but we nogr’x‘na11ytstay’i-nto* the Fletcher: _I—Ien(jerso‘n,'Ellington and .ba.sier book A and SunVtRaA.then We go into the_ Gershwin‘ thin‘g.'I‘he last‘ thing at‘ the_'Botto.rn' Line wés, we was_ pl.aying_y'-Ge'r4shwin.\ ‘ \ , ' / _ M_ ‘ V V I \ PH: }?Vh\a,t titles? BS:Oh no.,_rnan,there_‘s- so n1any.-You -know how ‘Sonny \is-‘-VVe playing .t‘hrought' things.. This is .going\ to be a nevvxfor -us‘ ins the ’ ‘ ‘ Village Ga.te.Like '*I” told you’;We711_be in there -‘the tvvefn-tyt {eighth ’and then We cor\n\ee_back in’ thereg the four5th,fift14i and sixeth-So that's_ u going to5 be a new thing fot7‘.us.You ‘kno.w;‘ ‘cause, norrnalely we wor.k infthe Bo_tto1jn_ Li'n'e ' or We only Work the _tLo_ne Star Cafe frorn ' tirriee to time and then we w.o.rk i_nT'Svveet. Ba——‘ si1"s a Couple. oft,-tirnes a year.So this _Vi11age G$a'te,i_s a new thing for us. A ~ ‘ ‘ ' up V PI-I’:'I-Iow Aaboiut. ’ r'ev‘ievs\rs?I-Iave you »p‘i-ckietd “any reviews ‘with ‘Sun Ra? ’ i ”— - ‘ MBS:.'A11 uof} _h_aV‘e ' \beer.1 very. nice i in , . 1» wa'3,»‘s>3‘e.«:.'i;=,n-Q-'.i:v::4.°& I area that I see.Pat A Patrick is the oneiwhot keeps Vup.on,'a11 of that. .‘ J - -‘PI’-rI:iIs he staying up in’ 1\/Iinneapoilis ‘right’ n_0VV? ‘ » ~ Q . i i v BS—:’PAa1; is here in’ ‘.Phi1a_cle.iphia r’1ov‘v.-I-Iei/C ' .._' staying in 1\/Ii\n’n‘eapo__lis there for a while a V . ' long tirne“ ago- /" , CPI-I:‘I-Ie's ' got his. ovvvn‘ p1a_ce_? ’ ix “ I. C jB'S:IVthink he has it up there.I think hefsﬁin the ‘York area .no\'>v‘.I-Ie.» 'was in Bestoh. / V You -knoW,he's got kids in. Bos‘ton'.I-Iis kidfs I ornia idovvn ‘around Capistrano and "through fda1:1g_hter(c,<‘2rneis to the shows)every so often . vvhengvvein California. V V ‘ ' ' doctor-I+Ie'_s got .a lawyergone. of his children") ut1intelligib1e-And then ~he's got-..Down in the bottom of California he's got a daughter C C with,they have a faIni1y,iyoui know-And his fatherfs out that in the bottorn” of Calif-—_ 1 there. That's‘ vsrhere I _s-aw hirn ” ‘last tirne .1-Iis K } V Robert Moog Conversation with John Hinds-—Septernber 9 , 1 9 9 1 .--Stariford ,Ca. John I-Iinds:Do ‘you remember Sun Ra's 1\/Ioog (Synthesizer ) ? Robert I\/Ioog:C)h sure- JH:Is there a story behind that? R1\/I:VVel1,it was a prototype-That's basically ‘the story.VVe loaned it to him and Sun Ra's way of working is that when you loan sorne-‘ thing to hirn you don't expect to see it back(laughs).So that's really the only story. JH:I-Ie contacted you? RIvI:I-Iis whole band carne by. JI-I:Is that right? R1\/I:Yeah.(Laughs)I-{is Whole band carne by (Laughs). JH:Now there's a story right there. R1\/1:1-Iis Whole band carne by to this small upstate town in New York.'It was,you know,I don't knoW,fourteen or fifteen people and they caxne up in cars,I don't know,three or four cars and each one was older than the other.'I‘he head chauffer,his claim to fame was that he could fix anything with 'a tool kit and he was always repairing the cars on the road. You know_,it was a piece of...of socio1ogy.Of a demonstration of a piece of culture that is never seen in upstate New York.And...It was .-.It was a happening.You just had to stand 42 there and watch the whole thing. JI-I:VVas that in 1969?. RIx4:VVel1 yeah.That’s exactly when it was be- cause the 1\/Iini 1\/Ioog was introduced in 1970 and by then we were in production. JI-I:I remember that instru;rnent,seeing it.He has since lost it so...these things come and go I guess.I don't know where it is now. RIN/I:Yeah,that's for sure.You know,we don't take these things too seriously.I rnean,when your'e making instruments and you're con-— stantly pushing thern out you don't worry about any one individual instrument. JI-I:So it was one of the first,I guess-A pro-— totype. A R1VI:VVell,there was - . . - JI-I:I remember it had a hinge it was a wood box- R1\/I:Yeah,I mean they all had hinges.I don't know.1\/Iaybe it was the third or fourth that we built. SUN RA RESEARCH PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS ' P.O. BOX 786. MILLBRAE. CA 94030 © 1998 OMNI PRESS. EDITED BY PETER HINDS. SINCI.E COPY $6. OUTSIDE U.S. $7. COVER PHOTO: JOHN DII.I.ABER ' OCTOBER 30, 1990 FREEDOM PLAZA - WASHINGTON D.C. THING ON THIS PLANET. SO THEN-IF YOU'RE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING WORTHWHILE OR SINGERE YOU DO HAVE SOMETHING 'GAUSE YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO WORK FOR AND YOU HAVE FAITH AND I'M TELLING YOU IT NEEDS A LOT OF FAITH TO OVERRIDE ALL THESE DISASTERS THAT'S HAPPENING TO THE PEOPLE. YOU NEED A LOT OF FAITH. NOT FAITH BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSCNESS) BUT FAITH THAT THERE IS A CREATOR AND THE ONLY WAY TO TOTAL SINCERITY. THAT'S ALL IT TAKES. DON'T HAVE TO BE RIGHTEOUS. TOTAL SINGERITY. AND I'M SINGERE, YOU KNOW. BUT I AM IUST ONE PERSON VERSUS FIVE BILLION PEOPLE. THAT'S WHAT IT IS. BUT I'M NOT NO GURU TO BE TELLING FOLKS TO TAKE POISON AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF AND KILLING THEM. NOT ME. SUN RA * SEPTEMBER 22, 1985 PEOPLE ARE DOUBLE TALKING, THEY NOT SINGERE. NOW, I'M SINGERE AND, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD THINK THAT A THE CREATOR OR GOD OR SOME THING WOULD . . . HE WOULDN'T HAVE IUST LET THAT HAPPENED. SO I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THAT EVER SINCE I WAS A CHILD. YOU KNOW, SOME EVEN THE CHURCHES - THE CATHEDRAL <AVEP IN, KILLED SOME PEOPLE. Now, PEOPLE sHOuLP WONDER wHAT IS cop DOING? HE'S WAITING FOR SOME i PEOPLE wHO ARE SINCERE TO CHANGE Q THIS? PLANET. THAT'S wHAT HE'S DOING. BUT TOTAL SINCERITY Is HARD TO FIND. PEOPLE HAVE ULTERIOR MOTIVES, YOU KNOW. YEAH, ULTERIOR MOTIVES. I DON'T HAVE NO ULTERIOR MOTIVES. I KNOW THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALLY HAVE NOTHING. AFTER THAT MExI<O THING I KNOW IT EVEN MORE THAN A THE OTHER. AND NOBODY HAs ANY
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-30
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 31 (December, 2000)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2000-12-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: 1 3 E U S S ----I . v9. 0 uno~Do.O.¢.¢ v 0 ..:$.:..;..:.. .. .. «.5. .:.nroCv6oIr.. . DEC. 2000 .—7 I vIEw EVERY PERsON EVERY DAY As BEING A<TORs IN A PLAY.SO THEN I IUsT CHANGE THE PLAY AROUND A I.ITTI.E BIT wHERE THEY <AN BE PART OF THIs BAND.THEY PART OI= IT ‘CAUSE wHEN I REAcH TH EM THEY BECOME PART OF WHAT * I'M DOING. IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE, YOU SEE. NOT ABOUT ME. BUT I'M REALLY NOT PART OF THIS DIMENSION AND I KEEP TELLING TH EM THAT I'M NOT. AND THEREFORE BECAUSE I'M NOT ' I'M IN <ONTAcT wITH OTHER DIMENsIONs AND THEY TEA<H ME AND INsTRU<T ME ABOUT THINc.s. THEY TEA<H ME AND INsTRU<T ME ABOUT THINc.s wHI<H UNRNOwN TO ME BUT As TIME GOES ON IT ENLIGHTENS ME AND ILI.UMINATEs ME ON HIGHER PI.ANEs THAT HAVE NOTHINc. TO DO wITH wHAT THEY CALL TE RR EsTRIAI.. SUN RA * MAY 3, 1990 ::_____.___ Bic. zooo \.'l<¢~ ,, .‘.< \~av~a‘.1r-u..‘ V... -1 ... ‘-09 -v ,9 40° 9‘ a» nu .. on .. 3» -. . .. . . .1 John Gilmore Conversat...
Show more1 3 E U S S ----I . v9. 0 uno~Do.O.¢.¢ v 0 ..:$.:..;..:.. .. .. «.5. .:.nroCv6oIr.. . DEC. 2000 .—7 I vIEw EVERY PERsON EVERY DAY As BEING A<TORs IN A PLAY.SO THEN I IUsT CHANGE THE PLAY AROUND A I.ITTI.E BIT wHERE THEY <AN BE PART OF THIs BAND.THEY PART OI= IT ‘CAUSE wHEN I REAcH TH EM THEY BECOME PART OF WHAT * I'M DOING. IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE, YOU SEE. NOT ABOUT ME. BUT I'M REALLY NOT PART OF THIS DIMENSION AND I KEEP TELLING TH EM THAT I'M NOT. AND THEREFORE BECAUSE I'M NOT ' I'M IN <ONTAcT wITH OTHER DIMENsIONs AND THEY TEA<H ME AND INsTRU<T ME ABOUT THINc.s. THEY TEA<H ME AND INsTRU<T ME ABOUT THINc.s wHI<H UNRNOwN TO ME BUT As TIME GOES ON IT ENLIGHTENS ME AND ILI.UMINATEs ME ON HIGHER PI.ANEs THAT HAVE NOTHINc. TO DO wITH wHAT THEY CALL TE RR EsTRIAI.. SUN RA * MAY 3, 1990 ::_____.___ Bic. zooo \.'l<¢~ ,, .‘.< \~av~a‘.1r-u..‘ V... -1 ... ‘-09 -v ,9 40° 9‘ a» nu .. on .. 3» -. . .. . . .1 John Gilmore Conversation with Peter Hinds-September 8 , 1 9 85 John Gilrnore:I-Iey,what's happening Peter? Peter I-Iinds:I'rn fine. JH : Alright. PI-I:I-Iow are doing there? ’JG:Not too bad.I appreciated those tapes you cats sent rne.They were real nice because I had lost those tapes-I had a couple of thern and they disappeared when the house was vandalized,you know-So I was really glad to get those tapes back.I said,"Boy,these cats knew just what to send." (Laughs) Yeah,sure ‘was nice of you‘ cats,rnan.Appreciated it- PI-I:Yeah,that radio show was fun. JG:Yeah,I didn't get a chance to get a tran- script of it- PI-I: Oh really? JG:No,I never got a copy of—VVait' a Ininute- You sent it to rne? PI-I : Yeah right . JG:I never listenend to it. (Laughs) That's what it is,I had never listenend to it.No,I forgot,I cornpletely forgot that it was sent- That I didn't really listen to it.I was so in- volved in getting those Coleman Hawkins things back again,you know.Yeah,and I really love therr1.And a couple of them I hadn't heard . The four tenor thing . Yeah, and that was bad . PI-I : That ' s incredible . JG: Right . Arnett Cobb was cookin ' on that . Arnett' s playing sorne stuff on that thing . It ' s a bad alburn . I never heard of that one - It was real nice . ' PI-1:1-{ave you seen the July issue of the VVire rnagazine? JG:No,but Tyrone (Hill) the trornbonist was telling us there was sornething in there. PI-I:VVhat it is is a big interview with you. with photographs with Valarie Vvilrner- JG:Oh that one.Yeah,that was out when we carne in Den I-1aag-They had that out,yeah,at the festiva1.Yeah,I remember that one.That's the third tirne that's been printed but. there was another one after that I think in VVire about the happiness that Sun Ra distributed out in Den I-Iaag.It was following the concert- I think that's in the next rnonth's issue- PI-I:I'l1 look for that- JG:But I had seen the other one because Don Larnsphere,tenor player,you know hirn? PI-I:No I don't. JG:VVe1l,he's a bad dude from the old school, used to play with Fats 1\Tavarro.I-Ie's white, but he was bad way back then.Bepp1aying with Fats.He's about sixty sornething now. He's corning out back playing and he came back to hear us,you know,and he brought r.ne,he said he would corne down to the hotel roorn next day and bring rne an article,you know,the artic1es.So that's how I found out about it-I-Ie's a good tenor p1ayer.Don Lani- phere-He's on a record,a rnean record with Fats Navarro.I-Ie's playing,too-Yeah,if you can find that record it's a rnean record-I-Iirn and Fats Navarro.Don Larnphere. PI-I:I'll check it out.You knoW,I found the other day was an alburn with you and Freddie Hubbard- JG:Oh,you hadn't heard that before? PI-I:Never heard it before- JG:That's a nice a1burn,rnan.It's really nice, you know. PI—I:Louis Hayes and Tornxny Flanigan- JG:Really nice.Curtis- . -Curtis Fuller,That's one of the first ones I did-Freddie gave rne my first date when I got there. PI-I:Yeah,that was 1\/Iarch '62. JG:Yeah,I think that was one of the first,yo knoW,after the Art Blakey thing.It was the first after the Art Blakey (and) Blowing In Frorn Chicago.I a1Ways,I liked it,you know.It was very nice. PI-I:VVere you playing last night? JG:Yeah,we did play in New York. PH 2 VVhere? JG:On,near the Hudson River on a sort of rnan rnade beach-They rnade this beach out of—It's really around the Waterfront and they just made this beach and put a lot of art work.It was for artists,you know.Bui1t houses and little unique houses and stuff and I think it was their last concert of the season unin-— tel1igible.It was nice.The way the people in New York were so receptiVe-It was utterly ainazing- PI-I : VVas this outdoors? JG:Outdoors-It was beautiful,you knoW-It was really nice and it Was unarnplified-And they said it didn't rnake any difference-They dug it better that way-Nobody had any n1ics-There was only one rnic and Sun Ra and the bass rnan—-the guitarist were arnplified but the V horns didn't have any rnics.Peop1e still grooved - They really enjoyed it , Inan - So that was very nice (the way) New York respond like that . ‘ PI-I:Did you add sorne New York musicians to the band last night? JG:Yeah,there was Vincent Chancey-I-Ie was playing with us-VVel1,Al Evans was supposed to show but he didn't show but John Ore, John Ore the bass p1ayer,he was srnokin' too last night-Boy,the cat was uninte1ligib1e-I-Ie shook the people up!I-Iis shit was so strong. He Was p1aying,Inan! (Laughs) A cat told rne, say,"l\/Ian,I been wanting to hear sornebody play a bass for the longest (tirne)-Tonight was the answer to rny prayer-"I-Ie said he sorne cat's be rnessing around on thern little old Fender basses and shit-I-Ie said,"I Want to hear rne a contra bass-"And he say,"I heard it tonight.I say,"You sure did ‘cause p Ore was cookin' Jin1!SInokin' last night-Yeah,p he. was on fire- PI—I:In the suII1rnertirne,this was in July,I read the New York Tirnes every day and I open_ed it up one day and "there was a little review of Andrew Cyrille and a drurn trio-And you_ i guys (Sun Ra and John Gilrnore) popped up and played with them. JG:VVe played with theIn.VVell,you know Philly Joe (Jones) died? PI-I:Yes. JG:VVell,we replaced hirn,see.I-Ie got ill along that tirne and he was supposed to play with thern.That was his first sign iof his illness- He had throat a operation so Sun Ra,they called up and asked Sun Ra and I,would we help thern out,you knoW,and take Philly's place.So we worked two nights.VVe worked here in’ Philly at the Afro Arts 1\/Iuseurn and then we worked in Brooklyn with thern-It was,oh rnan was it bad-Those three cats was srnokin',Inan!It was sInokin',Jack!I enjoyed it so Inuch,rnan.Need no bass and they played so well together,Inan,and the shit was so strong!It was just like being up on a rnoun—— tain of sound.All you had to do was play, Jack!It was ’rnean!'I‘he people got turned on like a char_np-I really enjoyed that-So they had a slight interview on it? PI-I:VVell they had a little review.I'1l send you a copy. would like that,yeah.I know Sonny hasn't seen it- PI-I:Just a srnall little review. JG:Yeah,I'rr1 sure he'd like to see that be- cause he didn't know that it had been any-— thing written on it . PI-I:I'll send it on back. JG:So what's happening otherwise? PI—I:VVe1l,I Wanted to talk to Sun Ra about some label paper.I-Ie Wanted rne to print up sorne record labels and I Wanted to talk to hirn about that and he also asked rne to check around the Bay Area for some possible «jobs out here.And I've been talking with VVes Robinson frorn Ruthie's (Inn) and he's inter- ested in doing something so I just wanted to convey that to Sun Ra and see if anything can be Worked out-Is he going to be back later today? JC‘r:Yeah,he'l1 be back in about a hour or so- PI—I:OK,it's about one o'clock back there so rnaybe I'll call you about three or soniething like that.VVou1d that be fine,you think? JG:C)K,I'1l look for those articles and things and thanks for the tape , rnan . Tell your bro- ther I said hello . Sun Ra Conversation with Peter Hinds-—September 8,1985 Peter I-Iinds:I understand you played last night in New York. Sun Ra:C)h yeah,We played on a rnan Inade- land fill they call it in the Hudson River.It was fantastic because the people responded just like-—this tixne just like they do in Europe.VVith standing ovations,you know. And they didn't Want to stop,but you know, they didn't have any light out there so the fellas couldn't read the music so I had to stop it- PI—I : How was Europe? SR:Europe was ‘rernarkable.You knovv,I'rn talking these irnpossible things but it's about being,you know,rather than rnaking unintel- ligible'of other things.And at one tirne it would seern that people would understand that.But they seern to understand that What- ever it this is not successful as far as people surviving.They begin to understand that it seerns like a very nice World but it doesn't turn out to be that Way because out of everybody end up dead.A»nd one tirne people would accept the fact that they have to die. But the fact is it's such a big,Wonderful Uni- verse and Ornniverse that it doesn't—it doesn't seern logical that that's the only destiny they got-That they rniss sornething.Sornething that is above Earth inte1ligence-Sorne little point they rniss.You know,it's like a airplane.It falls if a little screw isn't in-Srnall thing can Inake it fail-And Whatever this is concerning hu- Inanity,it's a srnall thing that they overlook that's ‘causing the people to be subject to death-And when I been touching up on points of that—I've decided to just play the low pro- file but rnore and more people are getting interested in what I'm talking about and that's the reason I say we1l,no need to writ- ing or putting out books and things-It's going to continue. like this-But this is a case Where this Inight be the answer to human probleIns.So that's the reason I should put it out there anyway.And that's the reason I have to send you this other rnaterial and sorne rnore Write—ups (Reviews) that you don't have-I\/Iaybe I got some frorn Europe and I could try and do that tornorrow- Sun Ra Interviewed by The San Diego Union—1\/Iay,3,199O Sun Ra:I played with Fletcher I-Ienderson,you know,and to me Fletcher had the greatest band (that) ever been on the p1anet.It was precision and discipline,clean cuttedness .and also creativity.I-Ie always had rnusicians that could create- (Question) Yes,that was in Chi- cago where I arranged for the floor show that they had at the Club DeLisa and Fletcher was in there playing every night.I played on I\/Ionday nights and I arranged.But he had a ' pianist (B/Iarle Young) and this pianist didn't show for one of his shows ‘cause he was a lawyer,at least studying law,and he was sleepy-I-Ie was in a car asleep (and) they didn't know where he was.So Fletcher sent for rne.Since I was the arranger there I knew the show and also I could sight read his arrangernents.I-Ie didn't have time to be re—— hearsing all the things he'd been doing all- all the years he'd been doing it-So then I fit right in and I carne on in and I stayed there with hirn about a year or more untill he left Chicago. (Question) VR/hen I listen at the music today,it's on a very high plane.It's dealing with precision and discipline and it's my natural essence to deal with the sarne thing.So I always be trying to get that in my band,too.It is said that Duke Ellington great- est arnbition was to sound like Fletcher I-Ien- derson's band.But he never reached that.You know,wrote in very odd keys like B and E and F# and A and D and Inusicians are rnostly just taught in this,jus-t the flat keys and rnaybe one sharp.After that they don't go any further because it gets involved for thern chord wise.But Fletcher always wrote his songs in those keys and therefore,if you got in his band you'd be able to play in all keys before you left- (Question) At this point they (rnusicians) have to care about people more than they do about rnoney-Because the early Jazz rnusicians was like- that.'I‘hey played for people and they played on percentage rnostly-They took chances because they loved their music and they want(ed) to play for people so a lot of tirnes they had to take jobs that just unintelligible rnaybe 60/40,50/50 or whatever.They Want(ed) to play for people. They just like birds have to sing,you know. Ivlusicians have to p1ay.It's like that and ducks have to sWirr1.They just have to.And a lot of people don't understand that on this planet.A musician has to do what he have to .do-Sorne people just niade for that.Like I have to play regardless of-—Like for instance,I just come back -frorn 'I‘urkey-Istanbul and a lot of people warned Ine,be careful there and a1l.But they treated me very nice indeed and the whole thing-They were entirely‘ different frorn What I had been taught in Arnerica about‘Turks-'I‘hey just people and everywhere I go I play for people and I don't see the~na—- tions or nothing like that.I see a people Who in need for sornething better-And I'rn giving thern sornething better every time I appear because I'm dealing with beauty,you see-I'rn dealing vvith beauty and I'rn dealing with sincerity and no planet can afford to bypass that ‘cause it's very confused here.It's get- ting rnore confused every day-So the people just got-It's like being in the dark-If you got your carnera,it's better,you knoW,than not having anything at all- (Question) See,rnost of the Inusicians,they were looked up 'to,rnaybe, because of a—In other Words,rny rnusic carne frorn the Wrong side of the railroad track ' 10 It's not really ghetto-If it was the ghetto,then it would be more accepted in An1erica-B'ut it's not like that.It's on the intellectual plane-It's on a plane that's really non religious you rnight say-Non phi1osophical,non governrnent, non everything that they got on this planet- It's talking about sornething else-Sornething rnysterious,even to rne.And then,since rnusic is a language,I'1n expressing that and a lot of people are listening and begin to realize I'rn expressing the unknoWn-An ancient unknown- An irnpossible unknoWn-I keep dealing with that ‘cause I have to.And when I went to 'I‘urkey,sorne people came up and gave me some literature.A book called The Information Book that they said they got from outer space and it's in English.And it's fascinating book.I've got to have.-.VVell,they didn't tell me not to show it to the world but they gave it to Inc and they tell these irnpossible things that—in about an other kind of tirne rneasure——— rnents and calculations and rnathen1atics.They covering all kind of planes and they talking about the Galaxy Ernpire-VVell,I been talking about the Ernperor of the Empire and saying that the Creator is the Ernperor of the C)rnni-— verse Ernpire.I been talking that.I never read it but I'm busy feeling my way through things.Like going through a forrest-And you have to have your rr1achete-You cut down things.You pave the Way.That's What I been doing With Inusicians.So I realize in Arnerica had a lot of blocks on cultural planes-So then I realized that mostly Jazz carne from the Black rnusician but sorne kind of Way they got involved in religion and politics-VV'ell,it did sornething.So then I realized I had to reach out to Brazil.So I got about seven Bra—- zilions in my band noW-And I got two with rne noW.I brought two and they doing- 11 sornething else.They not doing African things- they doing sornething.The Brazilian thing is different frorn the African thing.And What they doing fit in right with what,in a sense, I was trying to teach (the) Arnerican rnusic—— ian-But then they (Brazilians) deal with,you knoW,1ike happiness and they deal with their costurnes and art-So they most suitable for rne now because I always liked to Wear rny robes and always liked to feel what I'In doing.Carnival,you know,you Inight say fes- tival-All the tirne festiva1-And so they fit very Well with Ine- (Question) Sixteen and Inaybe eighteen (rnusicians in the band).A lot of tirnes I don't count.Is supposed to be sixteen- That's What we carne on the train but I look- ed at the band (and) it looks like more than ' sixteen to rne- (Question) Because I (have) rnaybe five trun1pets-And,you know,in the ordinary I'd need five saxes but I'm changing things so I got rnore brass than I have saxo- phonists-'Cause I've got a huge repertoire and I got to deal with reaching the people.‘ Be—- cause there's a lot of confusion on this pla- net-It's getting bad for 1eaders,you know. Leaders are like the Jesus thing.First the glory then the sharne.Look at Russia. (Question) I‘rn not really trying to teach thern because man is very Wild and sornebody has put the idea in his Inind about freedorn-I'In talking about discipline.Discipline and pre—— cision-In this age We have to with all these new inventions corning up,we got to deal with discipline and precision.And rnost of the people on this planet is talking about free- dorn but actually,they're not free because there are other dirnensions all around thern that also has something to do with their destiny in their everyday-—They don't even know that.And they rnostly look up to God 12 to save thern or soniebody like that but there are a lot of other beings (and) a lot of di- mensions around.And the people on this planet got to becorne aware of these other dirnensions that's influencing them and affect- ing thern and limiting thern,too-But also try-— ing to open the way for them to that diInen—— sions— (Question) That's where rny job cornes in.That sorne unintelligible awaken people to get thern out of their absolute—they thinking that they knoW.Because this is a big Ornni— verse.NoW,you take 1ike——you got up there with that telescope (Hubble Te1escope).Now, that's going to do a lot of things.Opening up people's minds to things they never drearned existed.And it's going to have affect on people rnentally, physically and spiritually. VVell,that's What my Inusic is doing,too.It fits in. (Question) I never even thought about playing music because every tirne I read books about poets and artists,they had a hard tirne.They starving to death or something bad happenend to thern so I never thought it would enter my so called 1ife-I never drearned of it untill I carne home one day and I had What they call a birthday present.It was a piano.That's what I had when I carne is a piano-And I never asked for one or anything. So there the piano Was-So naturally I was going to play on it-I did play on it.And I found out I_could sight read without a teacher.I could just sight read and I could play the piano.It was a friend of rnine who- he studied violin.I-Ie said I was playing by ear.So for a whole year I didn't have to buy any rnusic ‘cause he brought sorne to rne every day and put it up there for rne to play realizing I (hadn't seen it before ‘cause he just didn't Want to believe that I was sight read- ing.Finally he realized I was sight reading. 13 Finally he realized I was sight reading-And that's the reason when I got with Fletcher Henderson because I could sight read all of his music without rehearsing. (Question) Then they (who were in) in the school band, they Wanted sornebody who could play in the band-You knovv,rnarch and that.I could sight read the rnarches.And then I was over there with the band-So I never dreamed about having a band of my own but then we got up under a school teacher,a Wornan narned Ethel Harper . V\/ell, everybody talked about - . . fifteen or sixteen fellas being up under a wornan. They talked about her because she was a school teacher and her narne was Ethel Harper and it was a big scandal and every- thing about her then be up there directing _the band ‘cause she didn't play anything-She was very beautifu1,you knoW,and she dressed—a1l the wornen were jealous-A lot of people were jealous of her.They said she was a durnrny-But they—-she was very dignified and she directed very nicely (and) sedately- They talked so rnuch untill the fellas in the band got Word that they was up under a woman and everybody was talking about them and talking about her so some kind of Way they voted to give me the band.And that's what happened.And the next thing I knew I saw Iny narne out there.And I didn't ask for it-That just happened to be the person that should be the leader of a band-So see, rny destiny in rnusic Was deterrnined by other people,not rne-I knew that Inusicians had a hard tirne and they had a hard Way to go from the Arnerican church was saying Jazz was the Devil's rnusic.I didn't Want to get involved because I belonged to a church.But anyway,the next thing,I decided I would just give up the band and go to college-I got a 14 scholorship.I did that to get rid of rnusic- (Question) I did go.I got a scholorship-It was teacher's training studying everything so the next day the band showed up too. They didn't have a scholorship-They created great difficulty.The dean carne clown and the president wanted to know and they got thern sorne beards and everything.They said wher- ever I go they were going-They created this difficulty for rne-So the president of the coll- ege finally said they could stay and gave all of thern scholorships and they had to work their way through school which rneant they did have to practice one hour every day.And they bought a bus,strearn1ined bus-They gave Ine uniforIn(s),they bought books and there I was,stuck with a band again.That's -what hap- pened and ever since I know that rny destiny is to be a cornposer and to be a leader of a band.So it wasn't deterrnined by Ine,you see- Sornething wanted Ine to be in the position I aIn.And then,rnusic is a language and I per- forrned a lot of things,psychically and other- wise.I can speak to the world through rnusic and I've tried to avoid it ‘cause I'rn not a rninister or anything like that but it's one of those things where you.-.(Question) It was A&l\/I College in I-Iuntsville,Alabarna-They called it l\Torrnal,Alabarna but it's really I—Iuntsville.It's a nice little college.A govern—— rnent grant college- (Question) Oh yeah,Von Freernan say he's a space cadet.I-Ie was with -rne,yes. (Question) Soxnething did happen at a club.Now,I don't know about the curse and all that but sornething did happen in a club where we had to stop playing because they called the fire departrnent and everything and they could not find the fire-It just was sInoke-I recall that-VVe had to stop-VVe sup- posed to play to play untill five-VVe had to 15 stop about two o'clock and go horne because they could not find the fire-They never did find out What happened.But it was all in the c1ub.I rernernber that-l\Tow,I don't know how the other stuff got in there about---(Ques— tion)-..about the curse and all that?VVel1, actually a lot of strange things happen to rne and a lot of forces have tried a whole lifetirne to be blocking rne in doing‘ things-And they just—I call thern the forces-That's the reason I like Star VVars because it was talking about the forces-And I said these forces just tend to corne out and do things.Like in that same c1ub.I recall—-it was a burlesque c1ub-That it was one of the——the custorners kept hollering up there for the piano player-Give the piano player a solo-VVell,you know,it was just back- -ground and then the rnanager had to stop the show and asked thern what they want rne to play-I-Ie (a custorner) said Claire DeLune- And so I played it-And then he carne up,he gave rne fifty dollars.I-Ie said the reason he wanted it p1ay(ed)-I-Ie said I had a classical touch-I-ie and his friend was arguing about that-I-Iis friend said,"l\To,I wouldn't be playing in a club like that.I didn't know nothing about classics and all that-"And they had this bet on-So then I played Claire DeLune-So they carne up,he gave rne fifty dollars and said it was the best it had ever been played- (Question) That happened to rne.So you see, it jurnps on over in sornewhere else with me. Things—a lot of unknown incidents jurnp up in my so called 1ife-I don't call it life but I call it being,you see-And 1ife——well,since I joined the church and they said about Jesus said,"You Inust hate your life-"So then I be- lieve you shou1d.Because life produces people out there-Bag rnen and bag vvornen.It pro- duces dope addicts.It produces dead people, 16 too-I'rn scientific tninded and I have to judge the tree by the fruit and I do say that life produces a lot of dead people- (Question) It was a Baptist Church-I left at an early age because I found it was Inonotonous to study the sarne thing in Sunday School the whole year.It would always be Easter and Christrnas and Easter—It never taught Ine anything out- side of the sarne thing-And I could have stayed in and been a Sunday School teacher. Anything could have happened.But rny rnind was searching for something e1se-And I fin- ally left 'cause I found rnyself playing hookie on Sunday-h/Ie and rny classrnates in the day by day school would be together walking in the Sun on Sunday and I didn't go then.So that wasn't very honest-So finally I just stopped going-'Cause I knew everything they were teaching.And I'rn a scho1ar,you see. And I had to research to find out things my- se1f.Then I found out a lot of things that I couldn't be in there because,in a sense,I was- rny level of conciousness was above the people that were Iny friends in the church. And I wasn't happy in there although they were very nice peop1e.They always nice. (Question) They have to be unhappy with the planet Earth the way it is and search and look for the real truth-A higher type of truth.It has nothing to do with being right— eous-But We're surrounded by dirnensions surrounded by the planets-VVe don't know anything clown here.But they know things. They know about us and they affect and in- fluence our lives,too.So we should know about thern now-That's the reason I'rn for the scientists that is going to outer space- Because everybody on this planet should know what's happening-'Cause all they do is just “live and die and live and die.They never 17 rnove anyWhere-They never investigate to see Whether God really did create death for peop1e.They never ask hirn. (Question) I view every person every day as being actors in a p1ay.So then I just change the play around a little bit where they can be part of this band- They part of it ‘cause when I reach thern they becorne part of what I'm doing.It's about peop1e,you see.Not about rne.But I'm really not part of this dirnension and I keep teling thern that;I'rn not.And therefore be- cause I'rn not._I'rn in contact with other di——- rnensions andsthey teach me and instruct me about things.They teach rne and instruct me about things which unknown to rne but as tirne goes (on it enlightens rne and illurninates _rne on higher planes that have nothing to do with What they call terrestia1-Their hurnan brothers and sisters.And when I was in Tur- key I got a book-Five hundred page book that's unpublished that carne from outer space and the people in Turkey Carrie and gave it to Ine and said,"Brother Ra,take this-"And it's in English.So I'rn busy studying it-It's got some fantastic things in it-I'l1 show it to you when I corne through there-It hasn't been,you know,we1l it hasn't been released (or) any- thing-They didn't say nothing about they were publishing it-They just hand it to rne. (Question) VVhen I was three years old- (Question) Three years old. (Question) VVe11, It Was just—-I had a different sort of rnother so they Was having a party-VVe went to visit sonrie relatives in the country and they Was having a party-I was there.I reckon it was a party and they were drinking whiskey and other things so I asked for sorne-So they gave rne sorne.Three years o1d-And I was so drunk I couldn't hardly walk-Then everybody talked about her and talked about rne but she 18 said if she couldn't tell me it was wrong 'cause she was drinking so she had no choice but to give rne sorne 'cause I asked for it. She said,"I can't refuse."VVe1l,you know,they didn't see that.They just saw I was three years old and I drinking whiskey and drunk- So I had a different kind of rnother,you see- So then that stayed in the farni1y.They talked about Ine frorn then on about doing that and they talked about her-VVell,that was the start of it.I was ostrasized,you Inight say.So now I had to have some friends or cornpanions at that age so that I was told that God loves everybody.So I looked over that way and I found God-And then he took care of rne as my friend and cornpanion frorn then on.I didn't have to worry about farnily or nobody- And it's that way today. (Question) God, G—O—D. (Question) Oh no,'cause churches are forbidden to teach people wisdorn and the Bible telling thern don't teach thern that and I'rn teaching people wisdorn so I can't be a hypocrite,you know-It tells thern,teach thern not the wisdorn of words because unintel- ligible rnight listen and turn and be saved- That's what the Bible said-VVel1 then,I'rn not in that-I believe in enlightening peop1e.So,you see,I'd be contradictory if I was over in the church that teaches don't teach people things. (Question) I never did,you know.But he knew about Ine and his son, knew about Ine.1\/Iercer (El1ington)knew about Ine.I)uke knew about me too 'cause he got a record talking about space saucers landing (From the LP A Drurn Is A VVornan—CoInposition entitled Ballet of the Flying Saucers) and I didn't know that untill recently.And he used a lot of my Inusicians,too.I-Ie used Pat Patrick,he used Julian Priester.I-Ie used some more that I didn't even know-I'rn only finding out now. 19 (Question) Fletcher I-*Ienderson,one of his rnasterpieces was King Porter StoInp-'I‘hat is rnasterpiece of arrangeInent.I play that.Now, Colernan I-Iawkins Wrote a song called Queer l\Totions-It's one of my favorites.I play that- Fletcher Henderson also had an arrangernent on I_.irnehouse Blues I really‘ 1ike-I play that. He had an arrangernent on I-Iocus Pocus-I like that.I play that-You see,and then I got arrangernents on Duke Ellington's Slippery I-Iorn.I like that,it’s saying sornething-I play that.I got a different kind of arrangernent on Sophisticated Lady and I got a different kind of arrangernent on In A Sentirnental l\/Iood.I got a different kind of arrangernent on Day- drearn and Prelude To A Kiss.I like that song-\/ery beautiful and Duke has a lot other songs like Black Butterfly and others I rnight play but people not farniliar with those songs. I rnight play I\/Iood Indig=o.I like that.It's a rnasterpiece.Things like that- (Question) VVell, of course,then last night I didn't know it but I was supposed to be (playing) a tribute to VValt Disney.They gave rne the prograrn after We finished-But I didn't play any VVa1t Disney nurnbers last night.So I just play thern to- night-I'rn playing the sarne place and it's a tribute to Duke and Fletcher tonight so I'll play all three of thern together-And then it will be Very varied-Then I'll play rny cornpo— sitions,too.About outer space,of course- . (Question) Of course,the Punk Rock and all of thern,they be buying rny records all the tirne.I rnean it's a phenornenon but that's What's happening-That they look to what I'rn doing.You see,I was the first one using lights and costurnes and all the things they doing over in that,I was doing it in Chicago-Fourty years ago or Inore-And they Weren't using 1ight.Now they do have lights in clubs and 20 everything and they do wear different kind of costu1nes.C)f course,they starting to wearing overalls and things like that but they only trying to create or be different-And they added a little bit more shovvrnanship to their acts,too. (Question) Oh no,you see I've tried to spend a Whole lifetirne low profi1e-So there wasn't anybody holding rne back in Arnerica- I'rn dealing with sornething totally unknown and very controversial and I'm a scholar and I didn't Want to be in the controversial thing- But,of course,I aIn-So then I'm thinking now what to do.I'In thinking about opening rne up a,wel1,it couldn't be a church-An Oniniversity. _(Question) VVe1l,they just got Universities on this p1anet.They don't have an Ornniversity- (Question) Ornniversity would be where they could really be healed.'I‘hese sicknesses they got could be done away with.Even death it— self would have- to trernble before people waking up on this planet and do like they do it in Russia-They don't want Gorbachev up there.VVell,if they get so they don't want death either they can protest to God or whoever it is.They can protest.And they will get some results,too.Of course,they Inight have to fight against thern. (Question) Fight against thern. (Question) God.If he the one that pronounce death upon thern they can go to rnan's court and they can make appeals- They can do the same thing with God.If man will listen to thern at least ta1k-If they didn't want to be dying and all that down there they could just appeal their case.Like Adarn and Eve.They could do it like,by law.But they never protest,you knoW.So they keep on dying and getting sick.And,you know,instead of protesting against their leaders who doing the best they can only being hurnan,they should protest against death. (Question) 21 And stop bothering with their leaders who really have a difficult tirne being only hurnan. They doing the best they can. (Question) VVell,I have to watch Iny step-I have to be where when I talk and everything it look I'rn just kidding or sornething like that because soxnething could happen which would trigger actions which I Inight not be prepared for. You take,like I just corne frorn Turkey and the teenagers in Turkey brought rne that. Istanbul-And first day we didn't p1ay-They put rne on a truck,a flat bed truck and the band and we went through downtown district- It wasn't pub1icized-VVe just Went there.Peop1e on the sidewalks shopping all at once they carne off the sidewalks out into the street following the truck-They weren't saying any— thing and now and then we played-And we kept on rnoving through that and there was a straight street where you could see down, niaybe about a rnile and in within that rnile you saw all these thousands of people follow- ing that truck in Istanbul.l\Iow,since I'rn not a religious leader or political figure,why did they do that?I wasn't advertised-They foll- owed that truck so the truck turned the corner they followed it all the way to the hotel.l\Tow,later on one of the fellows in the band asked one of the people in the bar.Say, "VVe don't know too rnuch about Turks be- cause in Axnerica they don't ever rnention except the terrible Turks-That's all we know. Terrible Turks.VVhere are they?"And the Inan say,"That was thern following the truck."that was the terrible turks.They are like the grass roots of Turkey and when we bring some- thing here 1ike,rnaybe like opera or sornething that rnaybe think is above their c_onciousness we don't send thern around thern.But y'all are doing sorne creative and totally different and 22 we sent you to them first,before you even play to see what their response was.They liked y'al1.They didn't even heard you,didn‘t even know who you were but they following that truck-That rneans you in in Turkey.The terrible Turks like you without even hearing you play-"And that happened to us.Now,here you got,Inaybe,twenty or thirty thousand, fifty thousand people following rne and I'rn not a religious figure or nothing.That could cause prob1erns-These Turk unintelligible, "‘VVhat is this?Sornebody corne frorn Arnerica and got our people following thern."They were all rnen,too.NoW,that's what I was say-- ing-That What I'n1 talking about could get a lot of people involved because people are getting tired of conditions on this planet-Not realizing they want something better-I'rn talk- ing about sornething better.But I'rn not telling (thern that) they can do it through righteous- ness or hope or faith-I'In dealing with equa- tions and equations don't lie-I'In dealing with that-So'noW you see you got like Scotland governrnent want rne to come there and the English governrnent Want Ine to corne there and the French Cultural Departrnent wants rne to come there and they want rne to be teach- ing their rnusicians what I'rn talking about, you see.So it rnakes it another story.I'In going to VVales even-I didn't even know _ where VVales Was,the governrnent.But it rnust be the people representing it got in touch with rne to go to England and be in VVa1es and Scotland and London at a top theater. And then they want rne to Write for a semi- classical band and then,the way it is set up for I\/Iay the 31st for rne to.go to 1\/Ioscow and to compose a cornposition for Yuri Gagarin, (first Inan in space) the cosrnonaut that died and the Cornposers Society in 23 Russia want me to corne there-I asked thern, I said,"VVho's going to play the composi- tion."They said you and your band.I was thinking,rnaybe they wanted rne to write it for thern to p1ay-They want rne to corne to R/Ioscow and play it-VVell,you see—you see What I'rn talking about?I'rn getting involved- And I never intended that- (Question) Do I have any specific plans? (Question) l\/Iy Ornniversity is what I want to do.I'rn a nat- ural teacher-I went to college for it.I can outline things and Inake it Very sirnple and Inake it very mathematical where people can understand that they have to change now. You know,like you rnight be-a person could be a baby and have baby shoes but sornetirne you outgrow the baby shoes.Earth is out- grown their baby shoes-So they have to get some Inore shoes now.So they can walk on higher planes.And I think they know that- Every nation on this p1anet——all the people are dissatisfied.They think it's their 1eaders.But it's not that,it's thern-They want sornething better.And therefore they should get sorne blueprints on what they want and tell their leaders what they want.But all they doing is cornplaining and not corning up wit'h——Saying, well,this is what we want.This is what we don't want-But they just coxnplaining- (Question) Sornething sixnilar happened but I didn't say Jupiter,I said planet Saturn.I don't know why they connect Ine with Jupiter ex- cept I did go to Jupiter.But it was just a short Visit.But planet Saturn,that's it.I can prove it.That's all they should write-Ask for the proof-l\/Iathernatically I can show theni. I'rn not frorn this p1anet.Not at a1l-Because no rnan taught Ine what I know.And no wo- Inan and nobody on this planet hurnan taught rne what I know-So where did I get it frorn? 24 I got it frorn planet Saturn and other space places that I Visited.And physically- (Question) And all rny poetry and rnathe— rnatics,it speaks of things.It even,because I visited those planet,I actually got the keys to what they call the Bible-I know what it rneans-That is Iny proof right there.I know what that book rneans and I can show thern rnathernatically that it balances when you got the keys-It's like when you put a cornposition up before a rnusician and he knows all the keys,he plays it.But if you put it in a key he doesn't know,he can't play it-That's the way the Bible is.But I have the keys,you see,to that book.If I put it out it'll change all the churches on planet Earth-But then I'rn not, I'm not here for that.I'n1 not over into the religious thing so I have to say,well,being in human form I have to find ways to do things.And the way I do that is say,we1l,I'rn not a Ininister,I'rn a prirne rninister-I'rn God's Prirne I\/Iinister.Now,that makes it different, doesn"t'it? (Question) Eternal being-B——E—I—- N——G.Life is a very bad word ‘cause on this planet if the judge gives you 1ife,you go to jail. (Question) And you stay there.I-Ie give you 1ife-So therefore it's a very bad terrn- And you judge a tree by the fruit and just look out there at teenagers and other people- Bag men and bag woInen.People sick,dead and dying- (Tape runs out and then continues after a ten second break) And we were sing- ing about being.VVe herebye declare ourself another order of being.And he was singing we declare ourself another order of beans. For a whole year. (Talking about sorneone in the band) So then if a person don't have the conciousness about spiritual things they can actually get the wrong impression. (Question) Irnpressions and ideas.Now they need to 25 know—at this point they need to know what. that Bible Ineans-It's all over the planet, translated into every language and nobody knows the Ineaning of it.But I do.I know the Ineaning of it-'Cause I studied these languages like Assyrian and Egyptian hiero- glyphics and Persian.All the Way back there to find the rneaning-l\/Iost shocking,but I think if people strong enough they can hear What it rneans now and kee_p on Inoving beyond it.In fact,a minister said in New York City,a Catholic priest said the Bible is the cause of death of rnillions and rnillions of people-And he's right-It is. (Question) I'rn saying Space Is the Place.I'rn saying people should support the scientists.They should support thern and give thezrn rnore rnoney or ‘whatever it takes to investigate things so they can get out of this ignorance they in- They need to get out of this-They surrounded by other planets,they don't know who's on thern.'I‘hey don't know Whether they friends or enernies and they got all their guns pointed at one another.They'd better start to find out about the worlds around them ‘cause if they get attacked——right now if this world got attacked by sornebody from other worlds they would be at their rnercy-'Cause they have no coordinated prograxn for the nations to get together and to defend thernselves- ‘They too busy fighting one another-And I would tell theIn:Don't think they so secure on this planet that they can't be attacked by other worlds-And they should keep their Inind up like,Well,We better have our defenses just in case-That's What I would tell thern- You knoW,I been singing you rnust prepare to fight against thern.Been singing it a long tirne and who are thern-You see,the Bible says male and female created thern-That 26 different from Inan.l\/Iale and ferna1e,he cre- ated thern.And I'm saying thern,that's the enexnies of this planet. (Question) Like I said...We1l...To give you an idea-VVe just played Austria.A Inan carne up to rne after We got through playing and said,"Tonight, I felt more love than I have in a Whole life- tiIne."I said they get irnpressions of love that has nothing to do with sex-They get irnpres- sions of friendship that has no reason for being.Friendship...that's what I'm talking about-Friends are not friends for any reason whatsoever but it's a Very beautiful relation- ship.Like one of my songs is Friendly Galaxy.I'n1 talking about friendship (Question) But like I played in Texas and the people is asking questions so I said,"You know,they said that God is love and that's all they said." But I think that's lirniting God.So I’:rn going to take him out of the limitation and I wrote this song called God Is l\/lore Than Love Can Ever Be and unlixnited God from being ‘just one attribute.Then I said,"God,you see,he's greater than love but he does love you so he sent his love to you-That's Ine and I'rn corning out there.I'1n love and I'm corn- ing out there and don't let love pass by Without the touch of love-"And everybody——— that's in Austin,Texas that I went through— everybody in the audience reaching out try- ing to touch'Ine.VVel1,that was very beautiful. In San Francisco some titne ago,one day I told the people,I say to the1n,"You knoW,you been on this planet a long tirne,you haven't paid any Sun tax at all.VVithout the Sun you wouldn't Inake it.You should pay some tax- I'rn collecting sorne Sun tax tonight-"And so I got Inaybe about five hundred dol1ars.And that was very beautiful ‘cause it showed that people are ready for something different. 27 A "1 proclairn myself to be the Devil.’ Of course,I get a drummer that in San Fran—- cisco since it's supposed to be such a free city I did this draxna called A Cosmo Drama and I carne out all dressed in red and said, "l\/Iy dear children,I caxne to visit you.Child—— ren,you say I wear red and you know who I arn.I carne to visit you and rny children I do not want you to—sonr1e things you're doing- I'rn the one supposed to do evil but you doing sorne—you trying to take my job away from rne and you doing all these bad things, the things I wouldn't even dare to do-And children,don't be trying to take rny glory away from rne.I carne to tell you:Now stop doing these things-These evil things you doing because it's ernbarrassing me. "And the next day the people carne out and I said, ' So you see,people got to have a sense of hutnor. And they were doing some ‘bad things and I did tell thern,"Only I have the right to do evi1.I just want you to do good things.I take care of the bad things." So you know,-if they had a sense of humor they would have laughed it off but..-they didn't-And they wrote about rne-I think the Hearst newspaper (SF Exa1'niner),they wrote about rne so bad for about a week.And I kept on playing and finally they had to corne and say,"Sun Ra Triurnphs Again." (Question) Because the public was for rne,you see.And then that's-— They knew I cared about thern and I cared even rnore about thern because they got so Inany prob1erns-And I know good and ~well the politicians and the preachers and the teachers cannot solve thern. (Interviewer says goodbye) Alright,alright...thank you.-- VVel1,I got rnore super beauty for thern(San Diego audiences) this tirne-‘Cause beauty will do the trick.You got too rnuch ugliness on 28 this planet.And so I carne with the beauty. To let them cornpare.And let them see soIne—- body in human forrn who's doing something nice for a change.So I'll be seeing you then. June Tyson:VVho was that? Sun Ra: (Laughing) June wants to know who I was talking to that long.San Diego News— paper.They wanted all of it,didn't they June‘? (Laughter—-John Hinds,Peter I-Iinds and June Tyson) He was asking them deep questions and I give hirn some deep answers,too.Be— cause I can't play no low profile so then I give up.Tel1 hirn about it.And he didn't—and I said prizne Ininister.I-Ie just said,"Yeah,I see that." Sun Ra:See,I'In in hurnan forrn and I'rn not dealing with hurnan things.It's very difficult for me at this tirne.Because hurnan forrn is subject to illness.And the way that forces are you have to be able to overcoxne that because how can you teach anybody if you don't show it?You have to show it.Like unintel- ligible Jesus showed them how to conquer death.At least he showed thern you could try. He showed thern you could try-So that's the point.He showed them you could try.Now,so then they been shown the way.And it's got churches based on his rebellion against death- But they don't put it like that.But that's what it is.I-Ie's one of the greatest rebels,you know.To even dare to enter over into the kingdorn of death and to defy it.You have to say it like that ‘cause it's true.Uninte1ligible they say,"Is it actually true that Jesus died, to give his life?"I say yes-I-Ie died before he ‘carne here.That's the way he got here.I-Ie died.I-Ie gave up his heavenly life to corne 29 here.A lot of theologens begin to see that he gave his life on another plane to coxne here. So that's the reason they Call hirn the first born of the dead.Bec:ause he gave (his life) to coxne here.VVe1l,you know they speak about the first death and the second death so they get the first death dovvn here-The second one-.-It's quite sirnple if you'd look at it that way-And then I':rn talking about the sarne thing-You see these.-.I say I gave up my 1ife.Not here but there-Try to get thenl to see that is the rea1ity-Anybody corne here from another plane of existence dies there- NoW,I don't know if you got that in here. (Referring to the Irnrneasurable Equation) John I-Iinds:No. SR:That I gave rny life-1\Iot here but there. JI-I:I never read that one actually- SR:You never read that? JI-I:I\To. SR:Y'a11 behind.I got to get that one to you quick- Peter I-1inds:It's hard to keep up- JI-I:It is- SR:This is a nice picture-NoW y'all getting where you got the spiritual pictures.So they have to study what I'rn saying here. JI—I:You'11 be able to give those out to agfew people. * 30 PI-I:I'1l bring sorne more of these tornorrovv night,too. SR:VVe1l,you know I have to just put it on more strong-That they just-instead of evading the issue,I got to put this school out there. C)Inniverse.School of the C)Inniverse-And un- intelligible because I can't escape it and say I don't know nothing.I do know soInething.And being in hurnan forrn I have to show thern... For you I gave up everything I never had- For all I never had is the life of the life I abandoned.Yes,I gave up everything I never had.Al1 Iny pleasant fancies and dreams which concerned only n1e.All that Earth would call a good life I've bypassed.I gave up all this for you and who is- the you I love so dearly?Ye pure in heart.It is ye.1\/Iy love for you is greater than all the worlds and more in heighth,and depth than the Universe.Greater love has no God than I for I,like xny greater love,arn of the irnIneasurable.And my words are more than life and more than death.VVhat else am I than the myth iInpossibility?Yes, other Gods have I heard of but they were not as I;C)ther Gods,people have I seen accordingly but they are not as rnine.C)ther peoples/Gods have I heard of but they are not like my eternal. friend the OInni—l\/Iaster‘ God and‘ his celestial court of Angel Gods. SUN'RA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -. JI-I:I've "never ;seen- that one. SR:You never ‘saw that one? JI-I : I\T_o , that‘-s atnazing . (Phoenix B/Iotel . SF , Ca- ) 31 Marvin Smith Conversation with John Hinds and Peter Hinds Sept.27,1986—-San Francisco,Ca. B/Iarvin Srnith:I'rn going to tell you some tru1:hs.See,I keep Iny own diary.I have to because when the rnasters saw rne play they did like this (starts running) and ran out the door.See,noW I need hirn (Buster Srnith) because he's the only rnaster that I've ran into——I'rn talking about--I ain't talking about no lightweight Inaster-I'rn talking about l\/Iax (Roach),Elvin (Jones) and Billy I-Iiggins---I‘rn a feeling rnother—— fucker,rnan.I can do some shit with the drurns that even he (Buster Srnith) say- All the drurnrners use the sarne technique- You all learn the twenty six rudirnents, tirne playing and shit.So basically every- body is playing the sarne thing but diff- erent Ways of playing it-I can play sorne shit With the twenty six rudirnents that he said no drurnxner in the—-I-Ie ain't never seen-I-Ie been seeing l\/Iax,Elvin..-So in otherWords,I've realized after I got out there playing the drurns,vvhen I started getting to the level of playing with the masters (that) the rnasters was fighting n1e.Archie Shepp blocked rne like a mother- fucker.Tel1 rne this.I said one night to Archie Shepp:-"Archie,what do you think about the band with Sandy Dibriano,Kenny VVerner and l\/Iarvin Bugaloo Srnith?I-Ie said, "VVe1l,When It was With Beaver I-Iarris-.-"And they talked about Beaver all night.I-Ie never did rnention the band.VVhy?VVhy did he delib- erately avoid that?Every tirne it came up tirne to talk about What We was doing at the Ino- 32 rnent,he Won't talk about that-l\Tow,I've had Rashied Ali,Joe Charnbers,1\/[ax Roach——I went to Sweet Basil one night.In carne l\/Iax-You see,l\/Iax don't go——If the drurnrner ain't no—— thing,you don't see 1\/.[ax-l\/Iax carne and when l\/Iax carne all his little kids carne with hirn and you know who his little kids Was? Peter I-Iinds:No I don't. I\/IS:Louis I-Iayes,Art Taylor,and all the cats I'In narning is bad.I said 1\/lax Roach carne and his kids-This was the night I\/Iax Roach gave rne the silent green light.In otherwords he said 1\/Iarvin Bugaloo Srnith what you playing, I ain't ever seen no shit lie that.Go,please- But you know what happened after that?All of the Inotherfuckin' bad rnotherfuckin' Inas- ters in New York blocked rne and they pushed Ivlarvin Srnitty SInith.I got rnad and felt so fuckin' bad I sold my rnotherfuckin' drurns.I sold thern.I don't practice-I haven't practiced the drun1s——This is my practice.On stage.See,now I haven't practiced the drum- l\/Iy brother can tell you.I corne up with a method now where I don't touch the drurns. I can walk down the street and practice II101"6 than any drurnrner and never sing a drum beat.C)nly about walking.Right?And when I get to the corner,therefore the rnasters don't know how I practice ‘cause they don't see me practice-I'rn sitting in Italy where there's no rnusic,speaking fluent Ita1ian.Never practicing and playing so Inuch.See,vvhen I play you feel a thing in your heart-This is what the rnas—— ters was afraid of.So they blocked rne.I told Archie,I said,"I-Iey Inan.Trane opened the door for you.Therefore you have got to open the v‘door.I-Ie stood and unintelligible and blocked n1e.Now,on a drug level I can do 33 :2 '24 all the shit and when they like this and can't rnake it——vvhen the cats say 1-2-—3——4 I hit- VVhen I turn around and hit,you knoW,you can't even see that no rnore.Instantly.Not after I play a tune like thern-I'rn not like that-I knew that-I said to Inyself in my prayers,I'rn Buddist-The only Way people going to ever know about rne is ‘if sonne- body is a rnaster and they not afraid.All the rnasters I ran into——I'rn talking about the top shit.I ain't talking about some mother- fucker over here playing across the street with soxne band and they trying to niake i.t and the druInrner's pretty good but he ain't know What I talk about.I always said this when I was a kid.I Went to see l\/Iax when I was about seventeen,rnaybe it was about nineteen.But I saw hirn p1ay.I said to my friend," I-Iey rnan,I Want to learn how to play the druxn and Inaster the drurn-I don't want the drum to rnaster rne." I did that. I can teach anybody to play drurns whether be they vvo1rnan,Inan,child,b1ind.I can teach thern and tell what swing is in Words.They can't.So they blocked rne-NoW,I give it away. If I'm Walking down the street with a cat and he say sornething about the drurn his lesson becornes Where I feel that it should be.So that means if it's on the street,We start there.I don't have to get to no studio where the drums is.I can put a box up and take that (drurn) pedal back there (and) hook it up and when I play it with some cyrnbals,you'l1 think it Was the drurns-I play no drurns. In Corsica with Archie Shepp,he tell rne, "1\/Iarvin,rnan you not playing the drurns to- night-"I said,"VVe11,what arn I p1aying,rnan?" I-Ie said,"VVe got sornething else for you-" So when I got there they had Djurnbay (spel- ling?) dru:rns-Shit like this-So you know What 34 I did?I said,Well beautiful-I took rny cynibals and put thexn on the ground.Put the micro- phone on the ground,on this and I used that for a bass drurn and played so rnuch shit, if you heard it on tape you'd say he had a drurn set.It sounded like this shit.I can do that.And I Want to give my shit aWay.l\/Iy shit is based on InoVernent.It's not based on-— I elixninated What the rnasters call the tech- nique because the ultixnate technique is the tirne (and) rnovernent;'Cause I said this to rnyselfzlvlax Roach is Iny Inaster.'See*,I respect the rnasters.Therefore I've done my hoIne—— Work.Therefore that's Why I play the drurns like that.That ain't no lie.That ain't no if and or but about it.,neither.It"s you know What is. NoW...L/Iy method is based on rnovernent.See, when you take your hand and put it up here, when you let it go———novv if I bring it down it can do this.But‘if I take Iny hand and bring it here and I Want it to rnake a circle I just let it go lirnp.It sWings.So therefore the A Train in New York City,if you go sit ciown by the edge where the door is,and see that shakin' on the track is the baddest drurnrner I've ever heard in my rnotherfuckin' 1ife.So I said to rnyse1f,"VVait a rninute-I-low come that rnotherfuckin' train that don't know nothing about paradidd1es,don't know nothing about none of that shit.I-Iow cotne that train is bad-— der than l\/Iax? IvIS:He (Buster Srnith) was hanging out with them like I hang out with the cats in my age group.I-Ie Wasn't Walking around calling B/Iax the rnaster and all that.He was hangin' with 1\/Iax.I-Ie in l\/Iax's age group-You knoW,noW when I see l\/Iax I be like dear father,what's happening?But nowvwhen I see hirn I'1n 1ike,I Inight say hey father-I-Ie'll say to 1ne,"I-Iey, 35 rnan,go ahead.That's what he'll say.I say fa-— ther- (I-Ie'll saY),1\/Ian,go ahead.C'rnon,let's get a beer and check..."Now,with somebody else he rnight (say)...I say to l\/Iax,I say, "l\/Ian,what's that thing you was playing?" He say,"C)h rnan,shut up-Corne on,let's go outside and drink sorne beer's-"VVhen I talk (to) the drurniner l\/Iax,we don't _talk about the the drurns.VVe talk about all the other shit in the world.Elvin,the sarne thing.I':rn in a very touchy situation-It's restriction-It's like weights.If you going to have this kind of-.-I-’Iere,this .is the weight that you have to have and you'll know it-So I appear another Way.I appear like a chi1d-..I have to appear like it.I cannot show the other thing-Not yet- Now,When the tirne cornes,if it ever cornes of ,a boorn which I believe it will because rny brother's been in retirexnent ten years,;rnaybe fifteen years.In retireInent.Janitor Work. Cleaning toilets and doing this-}-Ie was Inaking rnoney-But I said one Word and boorn,he un- intelligible rnaking rnoney.P1aying with a rnain group.I-Iow does it (becorne) possib1e?I-Iow is that possible?Now,he done told,he had an in—— terview (Buster Srnith interview in a future issue) and he told the story,the real story with the rnasters-A lot of them don't care- But l\/Iax carne to rne——I~ie can't go up and say, we1l,I pick this cat as the greatest cat-I-Ie I can't do that-Can't do that.That's why he gave rne the silent green light.The silent green light Was he carne to the club and brought all the masters and we put all our hands (together) like this.IvIax‘s hand,Iny hand,Louis I-Iayes,Art Taylor,Rashied Ali. Everybody that was there.So if sornebody would have snapped a picture,that rneant son1ething.But it also rneans that for the people Who don't know what it means it just 36 look like l\/Iax was just doing’ that with rne and we was srniling.But it's not that,it's not that.I know it.It's a very,very deep Ineaning- And it's very,very iInportant..That's why it's iInportant.--like children,appearing like child- ren-See,it's irnportant for rne to appear like sornebody that ain't never grew "up-See,Iny brother,he don't understand that yet-VVhat he don't understand I know he will understand because that again is——Like I said,Who taught- If the rnasters,and I love and I studied with all of thern and they're great——-VVho their Inas- ter?VVho taught thern?I carne up.with this conclusion:Ti1ne itself is none other than the all rnighty.Call it whatever name you want to call it.VVhat is tirne?l\/Ioven1ent-So rnovernent is the rnaster of the rnasters.VVhen I say that, that means I'm taking in consideration (that) the World is nioving like this.But I can't show you I know that.So if you want to see earth is Inoving,where do you look?Look at the ocean.The only way you can see it-Can you see.it in the air?No-..So you have to look at the ocean..-It‘s constantly doing this (moving) in some way.It doesn't Inake any difference how it's doing but it's constantly (moving) And it gets sInaller.It gets into this where it looks like it ain't moving but it's still doing this inside of that.VVhen I said that the movement of what's happening now said, "You have the power."Because the only way I could see that power is to realize that,yes that power belongs to everybody.And I'm a vehicle,the one that shows this.But see,that's why I have to appear as a kid.--These cats think I'In a kid.Baby like.I might do any- thing.worry about Ine like a rnotherfucker. That's the other part.The other part that what it is why I‘rn on the planet-I'rn working with Sun Ra,Inystic- 37 Sun Ra ConVersation—- Sept. 27 , 1 986 San Francisco,California Sun Ra conversation between sets at the l\/Iabuhay Gardens iwith an unidenti- fied acqaintance of Sun Ra. You know,it was funny,the brother. (Danny Thoxnpson) said the next show's going to be different.VVell,everytiIne I see you it's diffe- rent. Sun Ra:That's right,it's different.That's (be- .cause) I'rn dealing with infinity,you know- I think people will find it out soon- VVe11 hopefully they'll find it out soon because this is irnportant for us to realize it before it's too 1ate-It may be finity for some of us but,of course,the Universe is in infinity.If we don't catch on to that,we're going to be the finite ones and not be aware of what's infinite any longer. SR:I think they Will though. Great!I’rn glad you think so brother ‘cause I’rn hoping. SR:'I‘he way I'rn getting response all over the world I believe so.EveryWhere it's the sarne reaction , you see - It seerns to happen a lot,you know-VVhen people get close to the edge they seern to start thinking a little quicker and they corne 38 up with more ideas,you know-Things aren't so slow as they were before. SR:VVell,they got a choice now.They got to listen to sornething different or the (nuclear) button.They have a choice-It's one or the other,the button or listen to sornething diff- erent-Try something different. It's got to coIne.I think this is going to happen because I don't want—The button is there.It's in place. SR:It's there waiting-Just give thern a little preview.Like in France today where people being terror(ized).Don't know where the enemy strike unintelligible.Don't know who it is.And it's just a little prelude of anarchy. VVell,that's how~ things is.If people won't get right,you know,and keep on with this lack of perfect knowledge they got to expect these things‘ to be like this-Just calarnities and unexplained catastrophes.Once we get right then everything will be known to us and we'll be at peace. SR:VVell,see all their knowledge they have brought this so I'rn going to tap on their ignorance.It's still pure,you know.'Cause he never did do anything so he can't say that ignorance is guilty-It's the knowledge that's guilty-By the fruits of the knowledge. That's right.VVell,how corne these knowl- 1edge——I rnean,have we been fools all this time or was the knowledge sornehow taken away or lost along the path? SR:No,the disciples turned all wisdom upside 39 down . Jesus desciples - VVell,I thought it had to be sornething like that because here we are a rnan who under- stands the true function of the Universe and unintelligible is it going... SR : I-Ie inverted everything . VVas it hirn or his disciples? SR:I-{is disciples didn't know anything-They only knew what he said and they rnisinter—— preted . That rerninds rne of these people running around now.The ones who have been saved "by these latest cults whether it's EST or whatever-Unintelligib1e seen the light 'cause so and so told rne and they all got it wrong. SR:But I'rn dealing with equations-This is soxnething that every nation on Earth can see that it's true and they have to have equations to see that it is true-That it doesn't take faith,it doesn't take hope.A little child can see it it's so siInple.Tihat's what I'rn dealing with.But I'In not a rninister or anything so it rnakes it difficu1t,you know. And I don't have a religion and I'rn not really trying to offer sornething to the righteous only.That rnakes it difficult. l\/Iaybe if you were unintelligible put a price tag on it then you'd be real popular and your word would get around... SR:I can't do that 'cause I'rn from planet Saturn.VVe don't do that on that planet. 40 That's right.VVell,they just be corrupted when it carne out- SR: They’ 11 change . I think you got all the respect now ‘cause people understand where you coining froxn. SR:They got to change.Because every rnan has it within hirn the desire to survive. VVe all see now that our survival is to be right and to accept the knowledge and under-— standing. SR:VVel1,I'In going to tap on their ignorance, you see.If I can present all rnankind as ig- norant then their not guilty of touching the tree of knowledge. Do you think it's our pride that keeps us f1"OII1 knowledge? SR:l\To,it's inverted-The knowledge is inver- ted.It's inside out and that's rnakes good bad and bad good and Inakes everything,rnakes blessings equal to curses and that's all that's wrong-It's got to be put back into it's pro- per sphere and everything will change over- night. That's alrnost like knowledge is always under- stood,it's just people. . - SR:But you can't do it unless you got per-— rnission-You see,you can't——Anything down here unintelligible good unless you got per-—- rnission froxn the Creator.'Cause otherwise you get punished.'Cause you don't have the authority to change things now. “i 41 A change is Corning. SR:It has to coIne.-.I got the authority but the rnore I look at people the rnore I want run and hide.'Cause they in a bad condition, you know. It's a terrible condition.I see it around and the thing is they'll fight you to tell you that they're the ones that are right and alive and that you're the one that's off and dead- SR:A1l you have to do is get that Bible and say why be righteous over uninte11igible?VVhy should you destroy yourse1f-They can fight with their book-It tell thern don't be too righteous but they haven't seen that yet- But I can show it to thern. It's truth all around.I know what you saying brother.It's a sharne that with all this truth around,evidence,that people still go off on the wrong path- SR:VVell,you see it's two kind of truths-One of thenri is good and one of thern is bad. They're following the good one. Since they're not knowing all truths it keeps thern from being in the right. SR:The good truth is death,you see.But they don't know that yet.I'd have to show thern. Is it sirnilar to the Way they going to per-— secute witches for showing the other side od knowledge? SR:No,it's the equations is doing it.See,the equations is that death is good. 42 Death is only good for those who see them- selves stuck in one way of rnode of life. SR:No,it's a good word according to the equations.Death is a good word.See,they think—-'I‘hey got it all twisted.They think the word of God is good but it's not.It's good only because he said you going to die and then he kept his prornise.That rnakes his prornise good because he kept it.And they're dying every day.But that is not proper for people.At least I'In not interested in them dying,you see,because it doesn't do anything for rne. -—..--u..¢-—-1...-_..—¢—_—__-..—_.———-——..___—.—._—.——__:.—————.——_._.———.———n-————.j.—...——:..———._—-—————;-.——¢._—— Johnl-Iinds:I-Iow's your stomach feel today? SR:VVe11,it fee1s~better.I just got to take rne sorne olive oi1.I think it's still some gas in my stornach.See,at horne I'rn always cooking olive oi1.I don't have no trouble.O1ive oil purifies the food.You see,out here when I eat some food it's usually cooked in some kind of grease,even vegetable oil.I'rn used to the olive oil-And I'm going to have to at least toast some of my food or do some- thing 'cause that lines my stomach and it cleans it out and it's wonderful,you know. It's got vitarnins in it. JH:I just heard the cassette today.That was wonderful.Excellent recording and very beautiful (Referring to A Night In East Berlin) and I know you'll be going back to East Berlin because they were fanatical there. -( SR:You heard the response,didn't you. 43 JI-I:Yes,the response is drarnatic- SR:It was really beautiful. J1-I:Recording is excellent and totally Wonder— ful- _———..———.._—_..-1_._._.._-_--——_..:..__——..__:..__.-._—....___..___.._.___—._—___:...:.__.—.___.1._._——.._.—_.-._.j._..—.:_._ SR:People over here are probably ready for so:rnething-..sornething different 'cause so rnany bad things happening untill their minds want sornething different.Even if they don't understand it.It's better than the Daily News, you know. (Chuckles) They don't understand. They don't understand What's happening in ‘France either.But that's the bad side,you knovv.Sorne good things can happen that they don't understand but they just have to open their rninds up to it...See,I'In rnoving back to the level I Was in New York Where I had dancers and lights and everything and ‘people weren't quite ready-But they have to be ready now.This is it.They got to have sornething better than this.It's ridiculous-It's ridiculous What's happening.Sornething is forcing thern to face how bad this planet is.You know for a long tirne they been getting by with the sex and dope and religion and equality.Is you got to face reality that whatever that rnan feels that right is not doing hirn any good.Not doing hixn any good so then when it corne to a place Where doing right doesn't do any good and doing wrong doesn't do you any good it's tirne to look for sornething else. And you have to have equations to do it.You can't just——A lot of people have tried to have a better world but they didn't have any equations so they couldn't do it-They ran up into a dead end.They ran to a labyrinth and 44 they couldn't get out.but I'rn saying they have to have the right education.They can do it-Peop1e be talking about peace and they keep talking about things like that but my equated they have to declare nuetrality. So don't be for good and don't be for evil. Go right in between theIn.A narrow path- You don't turn right,you don't turn left. Keep right on straight through-That's the equation.You go right on through and you don't turn right and you don't turn left.Be—— cause,really,right and wrong you can't deal with anyInore.Go right straight on through- Now that's true peace.l\Tuetrality.But if they for God then they're not nuetra1,they’re against the Devil and if they against the Devil they're not nuetral ‘cause they're against God.So they can't talk about peace unless they have nuetrality and they go right on through to sornewhere else.That's true peace. Nuetrality,1ike Switzerland.And they dernon-— strated it.But people haven't dernonstrated spiritual nuetrality yet.Spiritual nuetrality is don't get involved with Gods and Devils and Satans and don't get involved in their War because,you knoW,you too weak.Too vulner- ab1e.You get involved with a war between some superior beings and you'll get wasted. Can't protect yourself.And they'll still be here and you'll be gone.So then you got to have nuetrality and be for each other.that's all you know,you know.Anything else...forget it. 45 June Tyson Conversation with John Hinds and Peter Hinds—Sept.2S,1986 June Tyson:That was big fun,that Saturday Night Live-They put us in the l\/Iarriot Hotel which was overlooking Central Park and Iny» farnily says,"Are you going to take a roorn, too?"I says,"I-Ieck yeah,I want a roorn too-" ‘Cause I live in New York but I want it too, you knoW.So I Went down there and they came too.(Laughs)And we had a ba11.It was just.-.fun-A beautiful day and they gave us-.- NBC gave us a beautiful party afterwards at Rockefeller Center and I Was running around collecting all the f1owers-.-(Laughs)to bring home with the chocalate cake for the kiddies. It was real nice-It Was the best tirne.I don't really recall ever Working such a short span of tirne for a nice pay check. John I-Iinds:And treated very nice. Peter I-Iinds:It was about five rninutes- JT:It was six.Sun Ra did a whole shoW.I-Ie did a whole show- JI-I:All in six rninutes- JT:It seerned like fourty five(Laughs)- JI-I:Everything was in there. JT:It was fantastic!I couldn't believe it my- self-But it Was so funny though because that was the first tirne we had been on TV in America and so everybody was so precise and exact---The TV people.And they had little crosses Where you have to stand and stop,go 46 and that stuff-And they-..You l<noW,they Were always asking Sun Ra,"VVhat are you going to start up With?"And you know how Sun Ra does things . JI-I:Spur of the rnornent- JT:You knoW(Laughs).It Was really funny- JI-I:the first alburn I ever heard you on was l\/Iy Brother the VVind. JT:OI-I yeah. JI-I:And I guess Inaybe that was the first alburn you ever appeared on by Sun Ra.Does that seern about correct? JT : I don't rernernber - JI-I:'Cause We're talking about,I guess,1969 about. PI-I:VVa1king On the 1\/Ioon(Vocal by June Tyson).NoW,they landed on the 1\/Ioon in July '69- JT:VValking on the l\/Ioon-that was rny first alburn- PI-I:So that was probably recorded after they had landed on the 1\/Ioon because they had landed in July of '69- ’ JI-I:And that's such a beautifu1'alburn,too- JT:SoInebody Else's Idea(Voca1 by June Tyson). «(V JI-I:That tune...NoW,you did that last year at 47 the soundcheck but you never did it in per- son,you knoW,at the shoWs-It's such a nice tune(Sings). JT:Sun Ra Will get you Worked up,you know, and you'll think you're going to do it and you Inay not do it for a long tirne(Laughs). JI-1:I-Ie doesn't just call it out- JT:But it doesn't matter because you'd better be ready when he call you(Laughs)- JI-I:You were Working on an arrangement the other day-Is that Working out?Now,What was that tune?I can't rernernber right now. 'JT:Tirne After Tirne- JI-I:Oh,you're Working on that one-C)K,there's another one too.I can't recall---But back to 1\/Iy Brother the VVind.You joined hirn about that tirne?I-Iad you known hirn for very long at that point? JT:VVe1l,I carne in the band around '68.It was either '68 or '67.I forget.It's been like an ongoing school.You don't really think about when you start-You just keep going(Laughs). So it's hard to really pin it down. JI-I:I-Iovv did you meet Sun Ra? JT:It was interesting.It was during the surn- rner.They used to have shows in the parks and every VVednesday night We had a Broad- way shovvcase at Jackie Robinson Park-And so one night,one VVed_nesday night.--I forget the man's naIne-That's how long ago it Was.Any— way,he Was out there in the audience and_ 48 when it was over he carne over to Richard (VVilkinson) and I and he was saying We should meet Sun Ra-And so We kept talking and he took us down to Sun Ra's house- That's When Sun Ra lived on Third Street. And We went down and we-might as well say I auditioned-And I Was Working with a trio also- JI-—I:A trio?VVho was that? JT:You knoW,I forget.It was so long ago- PI-I:Is that Where Richard (V\/ilkinson) rnet Sun Ra also? JT:VVe Inet (Sun Ra) at the sarne tiIne.See,the trio was the trio that Ed Swanaton had hooked up for rne.Ed Swanston is a cornposer and arranger (and) also piano-And he had also trained Ine vocally and so put rne with Italian fellas.I remember the instrunrients though-’Lead guitar,bass guitar,drurns and rne- PI-E[:VVas it a Rock kind of thing? JT:C)h no,strict1y Jazz.After I heard Sun Ra, that was it.Nothing else rnattered. JI-I:1\/Iusically you can't go further than that- So rnuch opportunity there- JT:Indeed. PI-I:So you went to Europe with Sun Ra the first time in 1970 I guess.1\/Iade those alburns in France.The I\/Ieaght Foundation-Now,What's that about? JT:That's a beautiful place. 49 PI-I:That's in the South of France? JT:St.Pau1 De Venice. PI-I: VVhere' s that? JT:It’s near Nice I think-And it's very beau- tiful.It's so funny,too-They were filrning us and we didn't want thern to filrn us while we were eating- (Laughs) JI-—I:Sounds like the kind of filrnaker I would be.Fi1n1,fiIrn,filIn,fi1II1- JT:I would look up and here's a film (camera) going down your throat- (Laughs) VVhen we were going there we had to change trains,I think,in l\/Iarsai11e--.(Tape runs out)...l\/lean- while Richard said when he got there all these photographers and newspaper people were there to greet Sun Ra and the band and they greetedRichard and the bags. (Laughs). It was the funniest thing-It was funny.so that was our introduction to Southern France-Sun Ra ever tell you the tirne hestopped the riot in Paris? J}-I : No . Riot in Paris? JT:VVe played in an area where they usually had a circus and they had sold more tickets than they had seats for and everybody showed up and so they only let about a third of the people in and We were -all dressed up and everything-And when Sun Ra found out that they would only let a third of the people in and so we were on stage kind of (wonder-- ing) what to do.So one faction said,"Sun Ra, don't play because your rnusic is for the Wor1d.It's for everyone and they trying to 50 stop the poor people from Corning in-"C)r stop the people--.Sornething like that---So then another group said,"Sun Ra,you'd_ better play because if you don't play they going to pay."And there We Were-So Sun Ra---VVe had Sun symbols with us at the tirne.So outside the police were blocking people with their guns and you know how they stand?VVide legs and the gun-.-.So they took the Sun symbols and held thern up and Sun Ra kept walking and they Walked straight into the police-So I don't know if the ---just from the shock,you know- - .VVell,the unexpected- - -Any— Way,they sort of lost control (and) fell back..-So when they dropped their guard the people surged forward and Sun Ra brought all the people inside and it was so.--It was ja1npacked-I-Ie brought in as many as he could get in.And When he hit that piano chord you could have heard a pin drop-It Was so quiet and of course the band got a standing ova- tion after standing ovation-It was really (a) very nice rniracle concert.Very Inoving and fee1ing-And the next day the rnain Parisian newspaper,Le IvIonde,their headline was Sun Ra Stops the Riot. JI-I:That's certainly sornething that stands out- That's arnazing. PI-I:That rerninds me of a thing I read in Down Beat ten or twelve years ago about a concert in Chicago where sornebody threw sorne glass balls onstage. (Down Beat—-June 21,1973—V\/hen Alice Col—- trane and Sun Ra played concert at the Chicago Auditoriurn April 21 as»par't of the Jazz Extensions in Black Dirnensions series, there was some unexpected trouble when -1 51 three persons pelted Ra and his group with glass balls from the upper balcony.According to Ray Townley of the Daily l\Tews,they perhaps rnistook the event for an Alice Cooper gig.An irnprorntu vigilante group frorn the audience prornptly showed thern the door-Ra was evidently not to be soothed however."I have been all over the world,have played in Japan,Asia,Africa,Paris{Turkey and even the srnall country of Fin1and,"he said to the audience,"but never have I been assaulted except here in Chicago..."I-Iis Inusical rnood then turned vindictive,Town— ley reported,and he "proceeded to inflict thirty minutes of voluininous synthesizer upon the audience,driving out the less hardy-" 'J'T:Yeah,I rernernber that-I think Alice Col-— trane was on that sarne bill.And they had a lot of people backstage that weren't actually perforrners either.But they had all of these security people that wasn't supposed to be there out.That was a strange night.But as far as We played it was OK. JI-I:And then those glass bal1s-..I rnean after that it was OK. JT:VVe11,you know,I think it was like (a) prankster.A prankster type of thing. PI-I:Kind of a dangerous prank though. JT:Look,I've danced on stage with nails left on the floor. JI-I : Really? JT : Indeed 52 JI-I:You rnean sticking straight up or just kind of laying around? JT:Laying,when they didn't sweep. JI-I:So you just danced lightly? JT:VVell,you didn't realize at first that it's down there.And then we played (the) out-— skirts of Paris once.VVe got there,the police were running (and) we saw blood running clown the side of their faces.It was rnayhern. So Osabisa (African pop band),they came on our bus and they said,"The crowd is very, very unruly Sun Ra.Don't stay out there too long on stage.Just give them fifteen minutes ‘cause they're throwing toxnatos and eggs and stuff on stage."VVe said,"V\/hat?!" (Laughs) So actually we were actually kind of hesitant about getting off the bus.So anyWay,when we...It was tirne for us to go on...C)n that bill was Jerry Lee Lewis,Osabisa,The l\/Iexican Ballet "and us.So as far as the eye could see was people.As far as you could see was peop1e.But when we caxne out...I-Iey,they gave us a standing ovation before we even hit a note.And then when Sun Ra started playing everybody got very quiet,very calrn and it was a beautiful concert.So Whatever was going on...I\/Iaybe the people just didn't like what they heard.I don't really know. ' PI-I:l\/Iaybe Jerry Lee Lewis got them all up-— set. (Laughter) JH:So you have a daughter? JT:I have two. JI-I1:’And what are their naxnes and ages? 53 JT:Gia (17) and Shawn and they're twenty four and twenty six and four grands (grandchild-— ren)- JH: You got real family there - JT : Indeed - I} 113;}? }2"{{' 2.13 "QQJ 1§I£;1Z; X GIQEQI 1351;; {J ‘ ‘ " " JI-I : Definately . JT:VVhat about Space Is The P1ace?Did you see that too? PI-I:I was there opening night.I was sitting downstairs.Everyone (Sun Ra and the Ark- estra) Was upstairs - JT:It Was so funny-VVe carne in with our .popcorn and potato chips and stuff in those reclining chairs and We had never seen the other ‘actors and actresses.VVe had never seen thern- JI-I:The whole filIn,the Whole print. JT:I remember the first tirne we Went to Egypt.VVe played in I-Ieliopolis for ,a Gerrnan (I-Iartrnut Geerken) that Worked in the eIn—— bassy and he Wanted us to play for his friends. PI-I:VVas that l\/Ir.Geerken? JT:I don't know his naIne.I can tell you what he looked 1ike.I-{ad a big rnustache.So anyway,he had a book (Jazz Forurn 1\/Iagazine) on his coffee table from Gerrnany with Sun" Ra and I on the cover and we had never seen 54 it.And the book was about a year old... Yeah,that was interesting.It was all in Ger- Inan so I don't know what they said (Laughs) PI-I:So you stayed there (1\/Iars I-Iotel-San Francisco) when? JT:This was--.1ong tirne ago-VVe rnust have stayed there about a Week or two-That"s when Ninirod was in the band.VVe had cook-- ing facilities and we made our own rneals- You knoW,the whole band,We cooked together and everything and it was nice.VVe used to go. to the beach everyday.You know,just sit there and watch the-.. PI-I:Take the streetcar or sornething? JT:No!You Wa1l<ed...’I‘he beach was across the street.-.In fact,that's when Sun Ra taught rne the song They'll Come Back. JI-€[:I-Ie' had a piano there?Or he had his key- boards anyway- JT:No,it was just hiII1 and I and the Words (Laughs). JI-I:Real1y?And he didn't have a keyboard.I-Ie was just niaybe huxnniing it to you-'I‘hat's a neat rnernory. JT:Shucks,Sun Ra used to have rne sing...VVe11 actually he would Whisper the lines to Ine onstage and I'd have to sing it. JI-I:Talk about spur of the nr1oInent.Like irnprovisation.That's 1ike,hoW good are you? Here it is. 55 JT:VVe1l,you don't think about it like that- VVe're just...VVe’re really doing as told. (Laughs) You might think about it later but no,you don't really think about it‘.You’re just doing as told and. it was fun-VVel1,right now I really...“I never know just what I'rn going to sing or when.That's whyisonietixnes I be late getting on stage.because he prnight decide to play something that,you knoW,I do and I might be in the bathroom or decide to change,you knoW...Oh,that sounds like xne- (1\/Iakes running sounds with her 'feet——Laughs) VVhere were We?I think this was in Ita1y.And that's when Carla,dancer Carla was with us.I forget her last narne but she's shorter than Ine.-‘- JI-I:Oh yeah,she's been out here rnany a time. JT:And so Sun Ra was playing Space Is The Place and I knew that was my cue.So I don't know where Carla was going.VVe11,she danced on it but,you know,she'd corne out later to dance and I was running.r..I knocked her down.Accident1y,of course and.-.(JT says), "I'In sorry." "You'd better not do that . again,"she told rne. (Laughs) I said,"Carla,I didn't mean to do that-Bu.t you sounded like you were threatening rne-" (Laughs) And We laughed about her,you knoW.You ‘don't have but a second.-.You‘ve got to go on.So I guess that's why it's so exciting to me be- cause it's really always different,you know- So you never really get bored.And I think about other singers and they,1ike,rnight have to get up and sing five or six songs but Inight do those sarne five or six songs for five or six years. (Laughs) Or if you're doing a Broadway musical or sornething like that and the people love you then you've got to_ 56 do the sarne thing every night. JI-I:That would be hard to hack. JT:I really Wouldn't like it.And in fact,you knoW,when we did Space Is The Place I found out I don't care for acting because you ready but the carnera isn't. (Laughs) I had no idea it takes so long for them to set up the carn- era...I said,wow,you really have to have patience and really love it because other than that I don't see how you can hang. JI-I:'Cause it's like five rninutes on and you're off for the rest of the day-Kind of sitting there Waiting that they rnight be going OK, now we need you. JT:Right!Right!Right!For five minutes or worse than that~.’I‘hey rnight want you to do that one scene fifty tirnes.I know I don't like that! (Laughs) JI-I:Yeah,it's just nice-..It's just nice to hit it and that's it,you know.You do your best, that's it.Not again,not again,again,again.I can't hack that either.It's not in my person- ality either. Q JT:Right,so whenever I think about things like that,you know...and like,other people, they ask Ine...VVell,sornetin1es they be talk- ing about their bands and or they might ask rne,you knoW,how would I feel about this band,that band.But I can't really speak on it because I don't anything about how the other big bands really do.I just know about how Sun Ra...And I know he's very rnuch a strict disciplinarian and so I don't know what's going on. (Laughs) But for rne it's always a 57 continuation of 1earning,you know.So it keeps me up. JI-I:That's the side of it that rnoney could never buy.And there are very few creative people even on that 1eve1...Certain1y not doing what he's doing.But just on that level, like a Picasso or sorneone.Sorneone who can just create.ZooIn,bang there it is and they put it aside.They can just do it. J'I‘:'I‘his surnxner Sun Ra and John Cage was on the same stage at Coney Island and he had a stopwatch...John Cage had a stopwatch “ on the table and he sat there and he would have pauses or times of silence and then.-.I don't know how long but it would be for a. certain arnount of tirne 'cause he would go by... JI-I:Did you go to that show?VVere you there‘? JT:I was on it. JI-I:You were on it-I thought it Was just Sun Ra and... JT:VVell,it was originally both..-But Sun Ra always brings us.Sornehow we gets into the act,too.You know,either one or two or the whole gang.(Laughs) And so We were in it, too.And We sang En1ightrnent.Actua11y,the whole band was going to be in it butthey got there late. PI-I:So Who was We? JT:I\/Iarshall and rnyself and who else? PI-I:John (Gilmore) ? 58 JT:John go there late. PH:Jacson? JT:Jacson got there late. PI-I:El0? JT:Elo got there (late)...I think it was IvIar—- shall and Inyself. JI—I:Really?I didn't hear anything abou that. PI-Izdid you have a chance to talk with (John Cage) ? JT:Oh yes,indeed. JI-I:I rernernber acornposition I've only heard once and evidentally it's never been put out but it's real nice,you know.(The title is) City In The Clouds for flutes.Like five flutes or something. JT:C)h,that's so beautiful.City In The Clouds. Sun Ra wrote that out here.That's one of my ' favorite tunes. JH:I've talked to John (Gilrnore) about that and everyone remembers it but there's no... Evidentally no recordings out on it-I'1n sure there's a recording son1ewhere.On a cassette soniewhere- JT:I don't think it's on a record.But it's really very beautiful.Very touching,you know. You can actually see the clouds. JT:I know once we were living in Kensington. Up in the hills of Berkeley (California) .and 59 we didn't have a bass player at the tirne.I forgot his narne but this bass player carne with credentials from Boston Conservatory of l\/Iusic and Sun Ra played Friendly Galaxy and,you know,he couldn't get into that-It rnessed hirn up! (Laughs) I'll never forget that-Boy,he tried his best.I-Ie couldn't get into it.You know,it rnoves so fast and I guess just,you know,off the top 1ike--.VVe1l, actually a lot of tirnes musicians they corne and they go--.(Laughs) JI-I:Yeah,it's (an) arnazing amount of music- ians that have played with Sun Ra that Inaybe couldn't rnake it.You know,just couldn't handle it- JT:Couldn't handle it-So that's how it was. ‘And he left.I-Ie got up (and) he said,"No,I can't get it." JI-I:There was one guy,C)rnar C1ay--.I've seen this happen before and where you rnight get a druxnrner in there,just a new guy or‘son'1e—— thing like this-VVell,he's not exactly new,O1nar Clay.I guess he's played with you.But just_ on a technical rnatter,he didn't know Shadow world.I-Ie evidentally hadn't heard that for a While or didn't know it.But he didn't know it was in the tirne of 7/8-It was in a_ different time signature so he was just trying to swing with it or sornething. JT:Oh yeah,and they was gone- JI—-I: Yeah,I think Danny (Thornpson was say- ing) , "Seven, seven . " Still it sounded OK . It worked out but it was noticable to rne know- ing the tune and going oops . . . And so Clifford Jarvis really seerned to define that . ' 60 J'I‘:VVell,Clifford Jarvis is the only drurnntier I know that was in Sun Ra band. . .VVhen he took a solo everybody would go out and take a sInoke.I—-Ie‘s play a hour solo. (Laughs) And I mean up!Al1 the way!You knoW,up!A1l the way!It was unbe1ievable,really.I have,really, never heard another drurnxner quite like Cliff- ord.I-Ie's just,you know,he's kind of undisci- p1ined.That's the only thing. (Laughs) PI-I:I've read about that.Yeah,that's when John (Gilrnore) started playing the druIns.I read an article (where) he said Clifford Jarvis would come in late to Slugs‘ and stuff like that...Sun Ra would be a little upset. J'I‘:I-ie would corne in late. PI-I:John (Gilrnore) would say,"I'rn going to get up there and start playing these drunis." And then that's when he started playing the drurns. JT:I'1n talking about when he took his solo. VVhen he took his solo he was the only drummer I- know would take an hour solo. And I mean up,u-p you know.Clin1actic after climactic after clirnactic after clirnactic after clirnactic. . . (Laughs) JI-I:VVhat you're talking about- . .The gdiscipline thing Inust have rubbed the Wrong Way for Sun Ra and him... A JT:VVell,Sun Ra left hirn in Egypt- (This conversation originally appeared in issue five of Sun Ra Quarterly) 61 Sun Ra Research-Issue 1—Iv‘\ay 1995-8 pages Sun Ra lntervievved by Charles Blass-l\lov-15/ 16,1991...Sun Ra Conversation vvith John Hinds/ Peter Hinds—lDec.4,1.985.--Sun Ra Conversation vvith Peter Hinds-June 2,1986..- Sun Ra Research-Issue 2-July 1995-12 pages Sun Ra lntervievved by Jennifer Rycenga-Nov-2, 1988--.Reprint of Sun Ra lntervievv vvith John Vvasserrhan/San Francisco Chronicle-April 30, 1971-..Photo of Sun Ra vvith John Cage..- Sun.Ra Research-Issue 3-Sept. 1995-12 pages SunvRa lntervievved by Jennifer Rycenga-Nov. 2, 1988---Reprint of VVillie "Randall Flyer frorn the 50's vvith photos of John Cilnwore and Ronald VViIson..-Reprint of El Saturn Records Flyer ad- vertising ''Hot Hits l:l’Ol’TI Sun Ra's Sound Vvorld"- Sun Ra Research-Issue 4-Dec- 1995-14 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds4Peter Hinds and Danny Thonﬁpson-l\lov.1,1988-.-Reprint of article frond Portugal Newspaper frorn 1986 vvith photos.-.Three previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and Ronald VViIson.-- Sun Ra Research-Issue 5-Feb-1986-12 pages Conversation vvith Vvalter Iv\iller,John Hinds/Peter I-linds-Fall 1981...Conversation vvith John Cuilnwore John Hinds/Peter Hinds-Fall 1981.--Reprint of Vvhite Panther Party Press Release re ‘Sun Ra-A/\ay 18,1969..-Reprint of tvvo articles frorn Spanish _l\levvspapers frorn 1985 vvith photos-.- Che pre- viously unpublished photo of Sun Ra... Sun Ra Research-Issue 6-April 1986-12 pages Conversation vvith John C3ilrnore,John Hinds/Peter I-linds-©ct.13,1984...Conversation vvith sun Ra, John Hinds/Peter Hinds-l\lov.1,1988...Reprint ‘of article frorn Cunes,a nevvspaper frorn Istanbul, Turkey...Three previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and one of Vvalter Iv\iller.-. Sun Ra Research-Issue 7-July 1996-16 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,RonaldVVilson and Peter l-linds-Aug.7,1986---Conversation vvith Sun Ra and john Hinds-()ct.17,1984--.Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter l-linds-©ct.13,1984...Con- veﬁrsation vvith John Cilrnore,John I-linds /Peter l-linds—C)ct.13,1984 and Cct.16,1984--.Reprint of article/intervievv vvith Sun Ra frorn the Knoxville, Tn- Nevvs/Sentinal-lDec,.30,1 988...Tvvo previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and one of [Danny Thornpson and Sun Ra-.- Sun Ra Research—lssue 8—Sept-1986-14 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,Chris Capers,John l--linds/Peter I-linds—Iv\ay 30,1990...Tvvo previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and one of Jarnes Jacson..- Sun Ra Research—lssue 9—[Dec.‘l'996-—-20 pages Conversation vvith John C.‘.iln'1ore,Tyrone Hill,John I-linds/Peter I-linds—-C)ct.‘l 4, ‘I 984..-Conversation with Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter I-linds——(Dct.‘l 8,1984 Conversation vvith Sun Ra,Chris Capers,John Hinds/Peter P-|inds——I\/lay 30,1990.-.Nine previously unpublished photos.-. Sun Ra Research—lssue 10-Jan.1 997--14 pages Noel Scott intervievved by John Hinds—(Dct.30, 1988...Reprint of article/intervievv vvith Sun Ra in the Santa Barbara Ca- News and Revievv—Sept-‘l7, 1986.-.Reprint of an article frorn the "Egyptian ‘TV Ivlagazine"—Cairo,Egypt-—Jan.29,‘l 972—Four previously unpublished photos- . . Sun Ra Research—lssue ‘l’l—Iv\arch ‘l997———28 pages Sun Ra intervivved by Harrison Chastain/KPCDCD radio—Sept 27,'l986..-Conversation vvith Sun_ Ra, Carlos Santana,John Hinds/Peter Hinds—Sept.29, ‘l986.-.Five previously unpublished photos... Sun Ra Research—lssue 12-July 1997-24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds-— Sept.29,‘l986.-.Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter l-linds—C)ct-‘l ,'l986-..Five previously unpublished photos..- Sun Ra Research-—-Issue 13-—Sept.‘l997--28 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds- C)ct.'l,1986...Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John l-linds/ Peter l-linds-—Sept.30,‘l986-..lDale Vvillianﬁs intervievved by Peter Hinds—Nov.11,1986..-Con— versation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds- Sept.28,‘l986-...Various nﬁusicians conwrnents re Ra...Previously unpublished photo of Sun Ra..- Sun Ra Research—lssue 14-——[I)ec.’l997—32 pages Sun Ra intervievved by Jennifer Rycenga-—-l\lov.2, 1988..-Sun Ra intervievved by Rick Theis—'1983-.- Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-linds-—Sept- 30,1986.-.Various rnusicians cornrnents re Ra-.- Sun Ra Research-—lssue ‘15—Feb.1998-24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,Carl LeBlanc,John I-linds/Peter I-Iinds--C)<:t.3‘1 , ‘I 988...Conversation vvith Sun Ra,!v\artin Banks,John Hinds/Peter I-linds.. Sept.30,1986.-.Conversation with Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds—Nov.1,1988... Sun Ra Research—lssue 16—April 1998-24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-linds—-June 2,1986...Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds] Peter Hinds-©ct.3‘l,19v88.-.Sun Ra's cornrnents re- Ivtoog Synthesizer.-.Various nﬁusicians conﬁrnents re Ra... Sun Ra Researc:h—|ssue 17--June 1998-24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds-— C)<:t.20,1984...Lex I-lurnphries photo and inforrna-- tion fronﬁ 1975 Paiste Drunﬁ catalogue...Various rnusicians opinions re Ra...Previously unpublished photo of John Clilrnore... . Sun Ra Research-—|ssue 18—Aug.1998-24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John I-Iinds/Peter Hinds- C)ct.2O,1984...Cornn*1ents by Sun Ra-—C)c:t.‘l 9,1984 Previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra-.. Sun Ra Resear<:h—lssue 19-C)ct.1998—24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds- ©ct.'l3,1’984-..Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter Hinds—©ct.1‘l,1986...Con'1rnents by Sun Ra. Continued frorn issue 18...Six previously unpub- lished photos... Sun Ra Research—|ssue 20-—E)ec-1998—24 pages Conversation with Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds and Carl LeB|anc—C<:t.3‘l ,‘l988-..Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter Hinds—l\lov.‘l1,‘l986-.-. Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-linds— Aug.12,1986... Sun .Ra Research—Issue 21—Feb-1999—24 ‘pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds and Bruce ©vvens——C)<:t.31 ,‘l988---Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter l-linds—Feb.14,‘l986... Conversation vvith Sun _Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds-— Feb.16,1986... Sun Ra Research—-Issue 22--/-\priI,‘1999—24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds- Cct.20,‘l984...Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Pete!’ ,H,if'!.d.$--Feb.16,1986--. Sun Ra Research—lssue 23—June 1999-24 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-1inds—Iv\arch 29,1 989...Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-linds——June ‘l7,'l988...Previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra-.. ‘ Sun Ra Research—lssue 24-/\ug.‘l999--24 pagesy Conversation vvith Sun Ra and -Peter I-linds—-June ‘l7,‘l.988-..Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter l-linds-—Jun-e ‘l8,‘l988--.Conversation vvith John Cilrnore,John l-linds/Peter l-linds—l\lov.‘l,‘l99‘l... Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-<linds—June 18,‘l986-.-Conversation vvith Sun Ra and Peter I-linds-—June ‘|'9,'1986.--Previous|y unpublished photos of'Sun Ra and John Cilrnore--- Sun Ra Research—lssue 25——()ct.1999—28 pages Sun. Ra cornnﬁents during Arkestra rehearsal-—/\pril 21,1971...Al l-lassan intervievved‘ by Cathy Austin and John l-—Iinds—KZSL_J-—FIv\—-—I\/\ay 25, 1997-.. Sun Ra intervievved by Jennifer Ryc:enga——- Nov-2,1988.--Nine previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and the Arkestra... Sun Ra Research—lssue 26—[)e<:.1999—28 pages Sun Ra intervievved by_ Jennifer Ry<:enga——l\lov.2, ‘l988...Sun Ra conversation vvith Pieter Hinds- Ivlarch 28,'l989...Six previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and the Arkestra.'.. Sun Ra Research—lssue 27—Jan.2000—-3-6 pages Conversation vvith Sun Ra,John Hinds/Peter Hinds- C)ct.‘l3,‘l985..-Sun Ra intervievved by Harrison Chastain——KPC)C)—FIv\—’E>ec-4,1985-.-Fifteen pre- viously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and the Arkestra... Sun Ra Research—lssue 28—April 2000-36 pages Sun Ra cornn1ents—April 5,1989---Sun Ra inter- vievved by I-larrison Chastain——KPC)©-Fl\/\-—lDe<:.4, 1985.-.Sun Ra conversation vvith Rev.F.VV.King— April 6,'l989...Sun Ra conversation with Peter I-linds—-[)e<:.'l986...Four previously unpublished photos of Sun Ra and» the Arkestra.-- Sun Ra Research—lssue 29-July 2000-36 pages Sun Ra conversation vvith John Hinds/Peter Hinds- Nov.1,'l991..-Buster Srnith conversation vvith John l-linds/Peter |—-linds-.-I\lov.‘l,199'l-..Sun Ra conver- sation vvith John Hinds/Peter I-linds—l\lov.'l,'l988.-. Buster Srnith conversation vvith Peter I-linds—Aug- ‘l7,‘1987--.Tvvo previously unpublished photos--. Sun Ra Research—lssue 30——C)ct-2000-48 pages Sun Ra conversation with Peter I-linds—Sept-22, ‘l985...Sun Ra conversation with Peter Hinds- Sept.3,‘l986...Sun Ra conversation with John Hinds ()ct.31,1_99‘l...Buster Srnith conversation with Peter Hinds—Aug.17,1987--.Robert Iv\oog conver- sation vvith John Hinds-—Sept.9/1991--- Sun Ra Research is edited by Peter Hinds and published by C)rnni Press-lssues 1 through 26 are $4 each and $5 each outside of the LJS. Issues 27 through 29 are $5 each and $6 each outside the LJS.Issue 30 is $6 and $7 outside the LJS. sun RA RESEARCI-la PUBLISHED av OMHI mass — no.6 Box 786, MILLBRAE, (A 94030 © 1993 OMNI mess. EDITEDBY PETER HINDS. smcu cow so. OUTSIDE u.s. $7. THING ELsE. SOMETHING MYSTERIOUS, EVEN TO ME. AND THEN, s|N<E MUSIC IS A LANGUAGE, I'M EXPRESSING THAT AND A LOT or PEOPLE ARE LISTENING AND EBEGIN TO REAI.IZE I'M EXPRESSING THE UNKNOWN. AN ANCIENT UNKNOWN. AN IMPOSSIBLE UNKNOWN. I KEEP DEALING WITH ATHAT ‘CAUSE I HAVE TO. suN RA » MAY 3,1990. Mv MUSIC CAME FROM THE WRONG SIDE OF THE RAILROAD TRACK. IT'S NOT REALLY GHETTO. IF IT WAS THE GHETTO, THEN IT WOULD BE MORE ACCEPTED IN AMERICA. BUTIT’S NOT LIKE THAT. |1"s oN TH E INTELLECTUAL PLANE. |1"s oN A PLANE THAT'S REALLY NoN RELI- GIOUS YOUIMIGHT SAY. T NON PHILOSOPHICAL, NON GOVERNMENT, NON EVERYTHING THAT THEY GOT ON THIS PLANET. IT'S TALKING ABOUT SOME-
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-31
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 32 (February, 2001)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2001-02-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: BEcAusE oNE REASON TH EM FOLKS ,oN DoPE AND THINGS, 'cAusE . AMEiucA NEGLECTED THE Music. THEY NEci.EcTED To TAKE CARE OF THETRUE CREATORS or Music. AND THAT'S THE REASON YOU GOT THESE I CONDITIONS. IT'S LACK OF MUSIC. Now, YOU TAKE, LIKE wE HAVE A PLAY. IT Mici-IT BE A GOOD DRAMA BUT YOU NEED THAT MUSIC BEHIND IT TO MAKE IT REALLY REAL OR APPEAR (TO BE REAL). AND LIFE IS LIKE THAT TOO. YOU CAN'T GO (YOUR) wAv THROUGH i.ii=E wiTi-i- ouT Ti-iE Music. BEcAusE IT'S iusT LIKE A PLAY. AND THEY HAVE To sEE THAT. IF THEY CAN'T % VIEVVTHEIR PLAYS AND EVERYTHING, THE THINGS THEY MAKE UP, WITHOUT MUSIC, NEITHERCAN GOD HAVE PEOPLE DowN ‘HERE IN ACTIVITY wiTHouT Music. 'cAusE To GOD, Ti-iis wHoi.E Ti-iiNc is LIKE A PLAY. iT's NOT REAl..IT’S iusT ADRAMA. suN RA » DEcEMBER 11,1989 -,....L.;...._._-. ,v—y«.‘.-,—..-..»- -- ..... ,. ...... “V. m . 4 ,....~.~.,.w._.- CONVERSATION WITH PETER HINDS DECEMBER 11,1989 Peter Hinds: Sun Ra, this is Peter- How are You?...
Show moreBEcAusE oNE REASON TH EM FOLKS ,oN DoPE AND THINGS, 'cAusE . AMEiucA NEGLECTED THE Music. THEY NEci.EcTED To TAKE CARE OF THETRUE CREATORS or Music. AND THAT'S THE REASON YOU GOT THESE I CONDITIONS. IT'S LACK OF MUSIC. Now, YOU TAKE, LIKE wE HAVE A PLAY. IT Mici-IT BE A GOOD DRAMA BUT YOU NEED THAT MUSIC BEHIND IT TO MAKE IT REALLY REAL OR APPEAR (TO BE REAL). AND LIFE IS LIKE THAT TOO. YOU CAN'T GO (YOUR) wAv THROUGH i.ii=E wiTi-i- ouT Ti-iE Music. BEcAusE IT'S iusT LIKE A PLAY. AND THEY HAVE To sEE THAT. IF THEY CAN'T % VIEVVTHEIR PLAYS AND EVERYTHING, THE THINGS THEY MAKE UP, WITHOUT MUSIC, NEITHERCAN GOD HAVE PEOPLE DowN ‘HERE IN ACTIVITY wiTHouT Music. 'cAusE To GOD, Ti-iis wHoi.E Ti-iiNc is LIKE A PLAY. iT's NOT REAl..IT’S iusT ADRAMA. suN RA » DEcEMBER 11,1989 -,....L.;...._._-. ,v—y«.‘.-,—..-..»- -- ..... ,. ...... “V. m . 4 ,....~.~.,.w._.- CONVERSATION WITH PETER HINDS DECEMBER 11,1989 Peter Hinds: Sun Ra, this is Peter- How are You? Sun Ra: VVell, I'm still trying- PH: I was really excited, you know. I saw the prograrn last night. SR : Oh , you did? PI-I: Oh, yeah. SR: Surprised? PI—I: VVell, I had a few days warning- So I was ready. SR: I haven't seen it yet- PI-I: You haven't? SR: It's showing tonight because Phila- delphia is behind- New York saw'it, New Orleans saw it, San Francisco saw it. Philadelphia have to see it tonight. One O'clock or something like that- I don't know. I'm going to turn to it so I don't rniss it- PI-I: It's 11:40 your time. SR: It's after Arsineo I-Iall. It cornes on the Fox chain (network) here- I don't know what chain it comes to you. PI-I: VVe get it on NBC- SR: That's the difference then. PI-I: See, it was fun-..VVe get the Sacra- rnento TV, so I saw it at 11:30 at Sacrarnento and then at Inidnight it carne on the NBC. So I saw it twice last night- SR: That's interesting- VVhat did you think about it? PI-I: I was absolutely delighted- It was fabulous. I Was... It was fantastic, you know. SR: VVell, I suppose they showed the whole thing- June (Tyson) said they had a shot in there where I was talking. PI-I: VVell, what they did was...Of course, your two cornpositions and the David Sanborn introduction which was really nice and then after you played they brought another band out. I guess the Pixies came out and played and then after they played they cut back to you for about fourty five seconds you were talking. You know, you were sitting under the picture of Saturn and, you know, (by) video tape and for fourty five seconds you were there speaking on national TV and then they went out to the commercial- And that was real nice. That was beautiful. And then Space Is The Place. The finale with everybody. And that was wild. SR: Did you see Al Green playing the tarnbourine? PI-I: I saw Al Green there. How was Al Green? SR: I rnean he was in the finale too. PH: He was, that's right. SR: (Playing ) Space I s The Place . PI-I: He was playing Space Is The Place. How did he react to Space? SR: VVell, (when) he.got through he told me to keep on doing wh.at I'm doing. PI-I: That's interesting. Have you ever rnet Al Green before? SR: No, never rnet 1’1iI‘I1 before. He never 11161’. Ine so far as I know. PI-I: He's a preacher I guess, right? SR: Yeah, reverend. In New York they were saying Reverend Al Green. PI-I: So that's great. He really enjoyed what you were doing. SR: Yeah, it was rnost certainly a sur- prise joining together. PI-I: (Laughing) I would say. SR: That should open a lot of people's eyes and ears to wonder what's happening now. PI-I: I think so, you know. Because--- I tirned it and, you know, you were on there for fourteen rninutes straight on national TV. SR: And I did two different types of nurnbers. PI-I: That's right...And David Sanborn, I was really irnpressed with hirn and he had a beautiful introduction for you and it was fun to see hirn play in your con- text. It sounded to rne like he was hav- ing a really great tirne and really enjoyed (having Sun Ra on the show). Everybody...Everyone got a chance to, maybe, step into your world there and I think they really enjoyed it. Seerned to me anyway. SR: They did. They were very nice to rne- You know, I've been to Russia and back. _PI-I: I know. I wanted to ask you about that . SR: ‘Yeah, I went to Tblisi, a city I never heard of before. It's in Georgia. That's the southern part of Russia- PI-I: So you left from New York and you flew to Poland? SR: I left frorn New York...I was think- ing that we were going to l\/Ioscow, you know, on their plane but then they said they wanted rne to be cornfortable and they going to send Ine on Pan Arn to Frankfurt. So we got ready to go to Frankfurt but the plane was overbooked. So then they put us on another plane going to Zurich. And then We had to go to Zurich and then go to Frankfurt. Two different planes and then when we got to Frankfurt a Polish plane was supposed to pick us up and a Polish plane did pick us up and We went to VVarsaW and then a Russian plane pick us up and took us to Tblisi- PI-I: And how rnany hours did that take? SR: Oh Well, I lost count. That's quite a trip. SR: Unintelligible, of course like when they didn't get the plane We supposed to that kind of threw me off for tirning- Because it took longer you might say ‘cause actually it supposed to fly directly to Frankfurt. And because they were overbooked, Pan Am, they gave us‘ a free ticket, each person a free ticket to go anywhere in the World- Two thousand dollars Worth. I can go to Egypt now free. PI-I: VVow! VVhat a great bonus. Every- body in the band too? SR: Everybody in the band- PI-I: That's fantastic- SR: So When We carne back, We carne back on a Russian plane to VVarsaw. Then a Polish plane picked us up and took us directly to Frankfurt and then again Pan Arn was overbooked. Now, they finally realized that they had to give us, each one of us, another two thousand dollar ticket. So they, at the last minute, they said we had to go to London- You see, we was supposed to 1 fly straight to New York- So they realized if they did that they would be doing the sarne thing they did before and they'd have to give us (the tickets)- So they had us to go into a particular room, then they called us out of the sitting roorn out of the side door and there was about three or four women out there, they were in charge and they was running about like a 1\/Iax Sennet cornedy- They was running and we didn't know what was happening- But they run downstairs and they run back upstairs and they was on their walkie—talkies so finally they told us to go down the steps, we went down the steps to outside and there was a bus out there." So we got on the bus and I thought, "I reckon we going by bus to New York." (SR_ and PH laugh). VVe can't go on the plane, we rode ten rninutes, twenty rninutes, thirty minutes, alrnost an hour we was riding. I said, "VVel1,real1y it look like we going by bus." VVe didn't know where we were. going. So we went rnaybe about twenty miles. It seemed like that. It might have been further and there was a plane sit- ting over like in a parking lot- It's a big - plane. So we got on the plane and that plane was full of people. VVe couldn't hardly find seats and so we got on the plane and we heard that people had been sitting there rnaybe five hours. Just sit- ting there. VVel1, then they said some- thing about the plane was under repair. That's why. So then that worried rne that we getting on a plane that's been under repair- So then the plane took off. Then we carne on to New York. 'VVe got to New York (and) a pilot who sort of a fan of the band was talking to some fellows in the band. He said they was on runway and they was supposed to be the third plane that's supposed to take off. All at once they got orders to pull aside and they pulled aside and they didn't know what was wrong. But he said was nothing wrong with the plane and they sit there. They were waiting for us- l\/Iost arnazing,’ isn't it? They» stopped that plane because they didn't want to give us another two thousand dollar ticket- John (Gilxnore) said that at first but it seerned unlikely but after we talked to the pilot it was true. PI-I: It sound-s like it. SR: Because, you know, all the people East Gerrnany was corning to Azrnerica so they could corne here and then go to VVest Gerrnany. It was easier for the ones who had the money to do that- But they had a lot of baggage and everything so our baggage couldn't get on the plane. They had all that (baggage) and the United States governrnent paid for unintelligible bag. You know, it just all kind of intrigue going on and they burnped us you rnight say. But then the folks realized that they had to get us back when we supposed to. It was un- intelligible. So you see, I had adventure, So I stayed there five days you rnight say. PI-I: In Tblisi . SR: Yeah, and it was fantastic exper- ience because I got some surprises. Because Art Blakey was there too- Art Blakey rode on the sanrie plane as us from Poland. And on a Russian plane. Charter plane. VVasn't unintelligible Art Blakey and my band and we rode on and he got there, well, he played the first night. Les l\/Icann played the second night. VVe played the third night and Jirnrny Srnith played the fourth night. So it's supposed to been the first Russian International Festival- A lot of people was there from other countries- And it was a big place. It hold five thousand people-. PI-I: Indoors? SR: Yeah. It's a round house. PI-I: Circular? SR: Yes, it was fantastic. PI-I: Stage in the center? SR: No, the stage was straight across but the building was round. And the place holds five thousand. VVe had six thousand. They was standing in the aisles. The authorities were worried be- cause they was standing up packed like sardines unintelligible and every seat was filled. If anything had happened it would catastrophy but we went on and we played and everything carne out nicely. And everywhere every night— VVell, every time where I went they had a lirnosine for rne. And then they had—Every night they had a banquet- And we go to the banquet and we'd have to toast after after toast after toast after toast. And they had a folk singing group there that would sing for us and they was always present at each banquet and they could sing too. I got some records they gave me. Fantastic. And they said they weren't professional singers but I'm sorry for the professional singers- They singing better than thern really. They singing traditional folk songs from Georgia and they didn't like to really think of thernselves as Russians too much. In fact they were having a hunger strike there ‘cause of seperation or something. VVe didn't see no soldiers, you know, red soldiers or nothing like that untill the last night. The last night when we got through with the concert-VVell, I went to see Jixnrny Smith and we carne back to the hotel they said they was going to have another banquet that night...There was about ten, twelve soldiers standing at the door. And they briefed everybody, you know. Everybody that came in there but they didn't say nothing to us but everybody else they questioned. I rnean everybody white, a Russian. They didn't get in there- They didn't care if they were Russians. Unintelligible were the ones that they let in ‘cause a lot of people wanted to follow us, you know. In fact, the fellow who was the guide, one of the guides for us, they wouldn't let him in. He had to show his ID and everything. And then the banquet. VVel1, they got a lot of ballroorns in that hotel- That was a fabulous hotel. At the banquet again Tyrone (Hill) was with hirn walking (and) they let Tyrone in (but) they didn't let the fellow in again. He finally got in but they was—the red soldiers was there- They was deterrnined that wasn't nobody going to be able to disrupt 'cause, you know, like (they) did have the people who disrupted once who was talking about freedom and stuff and I reckon they was afraid some of them might come there and they had it well guarded. So when we carne to the airport everybody was wor- ried about custorns and, you know, going out- VVasn't nobody there. VVe didn't see no sign of soldiers or police or nothing. It's fantastic that just one of the guards that was there who was over...unintel— ligible passport, they was there 'cause it- was early in the morning and there was problern. PH: So you just went right on through there? SR: Yeah, went right on through. They treat us exceptionaly nice. PI-I: Sounds like it. SR: They took rne to a rnuseuxn, they took rne to a winery one night, the big- gest in the world and supposed to have the best wine in the world too and, of course, in America it probably cost you a hundred dollars a bottle so you don't see—Arnerica doesn't have, really, a trade agreernent with Russia but I hope they do soon because they need help as far as having trade with other nations 'cause 10 they didn't have—unintel1igible say he went to a rneat rnarket, wasn't no rneat- They need help- They need to be part of the community of the world now. PI-I: Yeah, that's what's happening- SR: They've been restricted, you know. The trade thing and they fight this ide- ology but people have to drop that now- PI-I: Yeah, they're trying to get the rub1e——-so it converts to western cash and they can help trade..- SR: Yeah, 'cause that's one thing that's bad and, you know, I had a choice as to whether to corne to California or go to Russia and then I didn't really know whether we were going to get rubles which, you know, you can't transfer it but then unintelligible just the rnoney- PI-I: How were you paid though? SR: VVell, they (paid) in cash. But it didn't corne frorn the Russians, it carne frorn the Germans some kind of way. VVe had a German booking agent and she had the rnoney because she said she felt the.-.you know, the way I got there (was that) four countries got rne there. Sweden intervened- Sweden, and we had send the pictures to Sweden and then Poland got rne in. Sweden, Poland, Ger- many and France- Now, I didn't know all of that untill I got there. But four coun- tries was deterrnined that I should go to Russia saying the Russians needed this music. See, I got some friends after all. 11 United States Governxnent Wasn't in it- They were more tirnid than they should have but they didn't. They still asleep. PI-I: How was the concert? How was the concert received? SR: The concert was received very Well, very quietly and very rneditatively I'd say. PI-I: Audiences are very quiet- They re-— spond after the songs? SR: VVhen I Was rnarching across the stage, all of them standing in front was reaching their hands up to shake my hand- Because it was .a lot of people standing before the stage that Wasn't no where for thern to sit. There wasn't no where for thern to stand. In fact, they had announced before the concert that they Wasn't going to start untill some of them peop1e—sorne people got up on the stage and in it's Wings but they had everybody get out (and) get back and they had to announce that. VVell,because of so many people. It was fantastic- You'd think a five thousand capacity and six thousand in there cause problems, right? But everybody was very orderly and it carne off very nice- PI-I: That's truly arnazing. And it's nice that you had a chance to see the area, relax and. . . SR: And they gave. . -They gave. - -After each concert they gave the' band leader a_trophy, a gift. They gave’Art Blakey, '12 well, after we got through unintelligible another banquet and the first night they gave hirn a long sword filled with some- thing and they said this is a sword for King Arther. You know, his narne Art, so they gave it to Arther, _King Arther- Then Les 1\/IcAnn played the second night and they gave hirn a long dagger. It was very beautiful too- Unintelligible handi- work. And then our night carne and they gave rne a sculpture from one of the top sculptors there- It seerned to be rne . playing the piano- There's no piano there but the hands are like playing the piano. A black statue and it's about fourteen inches or rnaybe rnore- It's very beauti— ful. It's quite beautiful. I was worried about bringing it back- PI-I: It rnade it back OK? SR: Yeah, it rnade it back- Except the base was a little cracked and (James) Jacson fixed that. Because that was ‘cause _he on the plane said, "I'll keep it-" And so he had it in a bag and some kind of way he put a book in there with it, under it which rnade it-.-it shouldn't of went up under there and I had it tpadded but he put that book under there so sornebody rnust have sit it down too _ hard. It was rnade out of plaster of IParis I suppose and it was easy to put it back together so you can't even see- Unintel— ligible so I was very pleased with that. And they gave everybody—They gave rne something. You might say abstract art but they gave everybody else sornething rnaterial. It rnade a difference. And then the toast that they had, one of the 13 toasts was even to their enernies. A toast to their enernies and you drank your wine and then one of the toasts was to Sun Ra's space pioneering‘ prograrn- They had a toast to rne being more than a citizen of the United States but a citizen of the world. I cared about other nations- They had that toast too. So it was quite fantastic. PI-I: Sounds like they were ready for you over there. SR: Right. VVas ready. PI-I: It's interesting that you flew over with Art Blakey. Is this the first tirne John (Gilrnore) has seen Art Blakey since he played with him? SR: First time I suppose been unintelli-— gible that long. In that company that long. So now they saying that in 1\/Iarch I'm going to B/Ioscow because the Corn- posers Guild have asked for rne. So I'm dealing with sornething which is quite different from what other people are dealing with. And that's why I started to play the low profile- It's totally different. V. I haven't _to1d half or even one fifth of what I know- It's so different. And I just have to sit and think sornetixne that how did I get it? And the point about it: It will effect the world. It will effect nations. In fact, I've been saying I carne in a change of planet. I see us changing- PI-I: Things are happening. SR: It's changing drastically. In a way '14 which people never thought it would. But I say I carne to change the planet. And now I've said it where I've‘ said it A on that TV- According to June (Tyson) I said that (if) they listen to me I'll change the planet with sound. June said that was on there. Did you hear that? PH: That's right. That's exactly right. SR: It's surprising they put that On- Anyway, the next LP, I've done it for A&l\/I and this tirne it's got whatvthey rnight choose to call Avante—Garde on there- Don Cherry's playing with us. This is another story- You'll be really interested in that album. PI-I: I certainly will. Did Ronald (VVi1son) rnake it back. there (to New York)? SR: Jarnes Spaulding's playing with us COO- PI-I: Great! Ronald, did he rnake it back there?‘ SR: No I didn't use Ronald because I got another baritone player, a New York baritone player- That's because expenses was lirnited for sending for people. He sent for Julian Priester, he's on there. He sent, I mean he got Jarnes Spaulding on it. He got John Ore on it: PI-I: And the baritone (player)- VVho was that? SR: The_baritone player, I don't rernern-— ber his narne. Jarnes Spaulding brought 15 him. But he's on there- I had to move fast and then our trurnpet player from Birxningharn, Jothan Callins, plays a very nice rnuted solo. PI-I : Joseph Callins‘? SR: J—o—t——h—a-n- He was with us before in New York. lvlaybe ten years ago. He's a nice person. I used hirn and, of course, Don Cherry. Ahrned Abdullah and I think Al Evans is on there too. And 1\/Iichael Ray is on there so in the studio I had about twenty two pieces. And Rollo (Radford) is on there too. That's two basses. Actually Junie (Booth) was there too but I didn't use him ‘cause he missed, he caused me a lot of problems in Russia.‘ PI-I: Junie Booth? SR: Junie Booth, yeah. PH: VVhat happened? ‘SR: VVe1l, he was up there in Buffalo the week before and we was rehearsing and everything and I was supposed to send pictures in and passport in in order to get our visas. And he didn't send—At the last day he come running in, you know, and we sent the pictures to Sweden but the Inan had left Sweden, the one who was in charge and went to Russia. So he caused that cornplication. Then he didn't have no——VVell, we were able to get—The Polish people was taking care for Poland so we was able to get that (at the) last Ininute but he didn't have no visa for Russia 'cause the rnan,who was in charge .16 of that in Sweden had already gone to Russia. So therefore, he didn't have no visa to go to Russia. But unintelligible Polish thing and then he didn't have his visa." That created a great problern ‘cause he wasn't ‘supposed to be on that plane going to Russia without a visa but they did let hixn on there because of me but when we got to Russia, of course, he couldn't corne out of the airport- And you see he caused me a lot of probletns so I've been giving hirn a sort of cold~ shoulder. I-Ie caused rne problerns. I don't need no problerns- I-Ie caused an international incident because the rnan frorn—I-Ie rnade the rnan from Sweden responsible. He‘ rnade the booking agents from Gerrnany responsible. I-Ie rnade the French responsible- I-Ie rnade Poland re- sponsible- All that, that was international. I-Ie rnade a possibility that the Russians‘ clarnp down. That the airline supposed to be charged twenty thousand dollars for bringing hixn. Now, you don't be going in thern places—And then what they say- ing and Russia was saying—VVhen they. corne to Arnerica without a visa, Arnerica rushes thern to jail. They very hard on them‘. (So) They say why should we be lenient to an Arnerican- They did say that but I don't know. Sorne international sornething-Svveden intervened or sornething and they ironed it out- I don't know how they did it but they did- And then-—1\Tow despite that we supposed to have a sound check. He didn't show up at the sound check. And there we were taking sound check. All other groups were taking sound (checks), everybody there- He wasn't 17 there- So then I saw what was happen- ing. That's putting me in a very bad spot. These people done went out of their way to help hirn and he ain't even showing up. Didn't know about where he was. He was told not to—They had. our passports in the hotel-not to be out in that street without the passport. You see, he disobeyed. He's somewhere we didn't even know. He might have been out there with sort of a enerny of Russia (or) anything. So I prornptly sent for a Russian bass player which I had heard at a jam session the night before. I sent for him. He came immediately and so he took the sound check with us. Well then (it was) about time for us to play then Junie showed up. And I already got the Russ- ian bass player and everything and so he's standing in the wings ‘cause Junie carne took his place where the Russian bass player had been standing. I-Ie assumed that he just supposed to play, miss the sound (check) and all that selfishness or something. So then I sent for the bass player and he carne and he stood right by me. Now, as a conse- quence, all the photographs they made of Inc the Russian bass player is by me and Junie's standing over there on the other side so he's really a nice bass player so there you are. Unintelligible behind that I said I can't trust him. I _ can't go through that. That worried me’! quite a bit. PI-I: That's kindof irresponsible. ‘SR: Unintelligible quite serious unintel- ligible clarnp down on hirn. Or rnaybe 18 some other people's head be chopped off or something (chuckles). He put a lot of people in danger- VVell, he seern to‘ be inconsiderate‘so that's the reason I didn't use hirn on the session. I went and got‘ John Ore. And I sent for Rollo (Rad—* ford).and I "just squeezed hirn on out in a sense. So I'm talking about discipline and precision and I have to practice what I preach ‘cause the Way the world is to- day. If leaders get up there and say they going to do something and don't do it, that millions of people will rebel and I know that. Leaders are in‘ trouble. They might have talked and preachers in trouble. They can talk that talk but they'd better walk that “Walk. Something is vvatching leaders. And I've said that all along- ' I PI-I: They're losing their jobs (laughs). SR: Sornething is changing things and that's the reason I was -able to rnake that (recording) for A&l\/I because some- thing, sorne force want me to do it. And sorne force Wanted Ine on that TV pro-'- grain where I could say What I could do for people- Unfortunately, not all people can be part of what I'rn talking about- PI-I: VVe1l, it's up to thern. SR: VVe1l, they can't. Unintelligible al- ready been fixed up Where certain people, the Creator has given thern talent and given thern heart or the soul to be part of sornething else- For instance, like Albert Ayler died-.-I-Ie died and they had‘ a memorial for hirn at a big church in 19 New York. A fellow who danced with us, Seth(‘?) Thomas say that an African told hirn, "You know, I went to the memorial and I saw some angels crying." He said, "Angels, yes." That some black people, black Arnericans, they were cry- ing. The angels were crying and he say, " VVell, in Africa rnen don't cry. 1\/Ien do not cry but angels do. And these angels were crying at the funeral." And I've been saying that I'rn an angel, like all along and I've been Saying a lot of black people are angels and there are some white angels too. But this rnan from Africa say he saw some angels crying. So it fits right in. The whole thing is getting ready to corne out and it's a total different concept from what people think. And I'rn right in the rnidst of it. I got the literature. Half ‘of the things you've seen, that's nothing cornpared to what I have- That I've kept it hidden be- cause I, I'rn not seeking to be a leader. Because I know leaders are in trouble. And I'd never want to be one, even from teenage when things were rnuch better. (In) The good old days I still hid what I could really do- And it's still hidden. Even if I—if I go and put out what I got that's nothing cornpared to what rny Inind can do that I haven't written yet. It's dealing with this infin- ity, you can't—it's just one of those things where it's unending. Unint.elli-- gible have to be where I can apply my- self and adjust Inyself to a changing world. Vvithout having nobody to help nae because the fact that even the music- ians with rne didn't see the scope. of What I'rn doing and that kind of delayed 20 Ine, 'you "see- PH: People are catching up a little bit you rnight say- * SR: And then the forces came and got rid of Elo and then it carne through and got rid of Danny and it caxne through and got rid of some more people that been around me for years- They didn't want thern to be around me so‘that's the reason"~I know' that all ipeople not welcorne in the kingdom of God. They're not- Now,- these preachers are up there talking things but they talking what people want "to hear- But people should be told the truth- They can't jurnp up. God got a governrnent "and, you know, it's like the United States Governrnent. You can't jurnp up—-Everybody can'.t be ' part of it. ‘Cause (in) the first place, they're not capable for ernergencies, And when ‘you jurnp up in the govern- rnent Aof the Universe you— really got to have yourself together- You got to have rnore’ than a‘ world rnind. You've got to have a universal niind. You got to have an infinity rn'ind.' Only those who can unintelligible infinity ‘can Walk .With the Creator ‘cause that's where he's at- Andy peopl_e——There's love and all that and ser- vice to God- Forget it- You can forget it- It cannot—-Even this government. If you are disloyal unintelligible that's it- But God is greater than rnan so if they disloyal to hirn they can't expect to be part of governxnent. They. rnight (be able) to exist _in it but they will not be what you Inight call the chosen few of the ruling factor. Now, they got to be '21 told that. They looking for God as a father or something but really it's a governrnent. The best thing unintel- ligible is putting the word God as governrnent and not what they talking about. VVhat they talking about will not work ‘cause you got the cexnetaries to prove it- It's time for them to wake up and see what an avvful condition they're in. It's so terrible that (the) other day I felt very depressed at the total rnono— tony of the thing called man and exist- ence they living which they think is good is most horrible to me. Now, therefore I can't be part of what they doing ‘cause I know it's wrong. I know it ain't no good for them and I know it's been going on for thousands and thousands of years and all the Creator's waiting for (is) for some people to really wake up and say this creation is not a good creation. It's unsuitable for us. And When’ they say that, that means they haven't matured and risen out of that stage of despair where they at- You got these people in New York City sleeping in boxes that outside of (the) bus station and sleeping on grates. That is not proper in any kind of kingdorn. It is not proper to have that and then you got " where, right here in Philadelphia, a sort of suburb, they put chains and locks on the cell door“ (in the local prison). It ain't enough to have locks to it. They got chains and padlocks. Now, you not supp—— osed to do that. You don't chain a rnan or padlock because they had sort of an insurrection there because—It started be- cause they wo'uldn't let one of the in- rnates go to the inrnates rnother's funeral. '22 Now, they couldn't let him go to that funeral or something. But they didn't and they put to hixn restricted rneasures on their prisoners because they supposed to have nobody in jail no way. It's sup- posed to be able to have "schools and things to teach people things .for that people wouldn't get in to these rniserable conditions because God judges the tree by the fruit and he going to judge this country by what they got- And what do they have? All these jails. All these people that's untaught educationally with all these schools and things and all these people talking about liberty and no disci- pline. And it is written: A rnan cannot learn without discipline. But then a country talking about freedorn is most certainly out of order if they want. the people to be educated. So they can't fool around. God is the worst possible thing for people to be connected with. He's very restrictive and they being taught sornething else- It's very restrictive and you don't rnake rnistakes with him. But they being taught something else. In fact, there's a phrase in the Bible that tells thern that: You rnust not worshi-p Jehovah, your God. He will do you good then turn and do you evil. He is a holy God, a pure God. You Inust not worship hirn. He will not forgive you for your sins. Now, that's in the Bible and yet in Anierica you got ternple after ternple after texnple to Jehovah. They rnust not believe the book. But I'rn here to tell thern they better look at that book good. Because it says he will not‘ forgive you for your sins. And, of course, would he forgive a pear tree if‘ '23 it started to growing pineapples and he didn't put it there to grow no pine- apples? VVell, that's the way people are. They (are) just like the trees. »They put here for certain things- Certain positions and got certain places and if they can get out of it they in trouble. They in trouble. And this planet's in trouble. You take, like in Philadelphia yesterday, they was throwing snowballs at the (football) players. Did you see that on TV? PI-I: No I didn't. SR: Well, they had it (on in ) Philadel- phia. They had the Eagles (of) -Philadel- phia and they had some Dallas Cowboys something there. And all at once the audience started to throwing snowballs. And they threw snowballs. They hit a- coach, I suppose, in the eye or some- thing. I saw hirn down on the ground. And the cornrnentators unintelligible- And then the players of the Eagles went to the stands and pleading with people to stop. People threw snow balls at thern. I saw the police leading the coach off and shielding thernselves ‘cause they threw snow balls at thern. Now, Philadelphia is another kind of city. I told you that be- fore. Now, I haven't heard of no other cities doing that. But this is another kind of city. City of liberty, you know. PI-I: City of Brotherly Love? SR: VVhat they do demonstrates liberty. And, you know, it was terrible. Even Tyrone (Hill), who live in Philadelphia, .,._say he was asharned. And so they were 24 commenting on it on the news and a man said in the first place the city should have cleaned the stands where there wouldn't have been no snow up there and the people couldn't have thrown snowballs. They should have cleaned that stadiuxn up-" And that is true. Anyway, the football teaxn is talking about going, rnoving to (New) Jersey. They been talking about that for the last rnonth- But (Frank) Rizzo, the ex—rnayor says,"VVe11, who cares?" They could always get some more ath- letes. If they go out of Philadelphia, so what. ‘ He said what Philadelphia should be doing is support rnusicians. Support the arts. And the sports are alright. I-Ie ain't talking against sports but it ain't nothing if you don't got art and music- ians. PI-I: I'rn surprised to hear that corning frorn Rizzo. SR: That's right. He's a different kind of rnan. He knows the value of art and we need Inen in position all over this country who know the value of art and rnusic. Because one reason thern folks on dope and things, 'ca'use Arnerica neglected the Inusic. They neglected to take care of the true creators of rnusic. And that's the reason you got these conditions. It's lack of rnusic. Now, you take, like we have a play. It rnight be a good drarna but you need that rnusic be- hind it to rnake it really real or appear (to be real). And life is like that too. You can't go (your) way through life without the rnusic. Because it's just like 25 a play. And they have to see that. If they can't view their plays and every- thing. the things they make up, without rnusic neither can God have people down here in activity without Inusic- ‘Cause to God, this whole thing is like a play- It's not real-‘ It's just a drarna. It's a passion- play. That is not the reality- It's just a play. And that's what it is about Jesus- The passion play. Now, all that has a rneaning and I got the answer to it- But I'rn not a minister or nothing like that and I'rn not a philosopher. I'rn dealing with equations and the Earth has never had anyone like rne here so I'rn really alone. It's frightening in a sense. It's just like coining from another planet and land here alone. I don't have nobody to help rne on the things that I'rn doing ‘cause they don't know what I'rn. doing. And I don't know what I have to do either. But I know I was sent here and I'rn supposed to change this planet for the better. It's terrific job but I sought to have seclusion or stay out of it. To bypass this planet without people ever even hearing rny narne or seeing rne. I didn't even want to play for people ‘cause I didn't want to have no confron- tation with rnan. But it's sorne force that's pushed rne out there where people can hear rne and see rne more and Inore- It's another story. I got a letter here now from a rnan—sorne people we played (for) up in Hartford (Conneticut). V\/here (Jarnes) Jacson and unintelligible had a school up there for twenty years and he had us up there and he had like a throne or sornething with a chair covered over- Sornething for rne to sit in arnong the 26 audience and then he had these girls to come and dance for rne and a boy to dance and at the end.of their dancing they sang Space Is The Place. And then he gave Inc a trophy, a plaque that said to Sun Ra, who covers from Fletcher Henderson to the galaxies and to infinity- And a big ribbon was on it. You know, different colors and then I got this letter from sornebody saying that they was so delighted to see rne treated in the fash- ion I was, like I was supposed to be and they a fan of mine and they been watch- ing every concert and they had to say every concert was sincere and artistically well balanced. They had to say that each one of them was different- Unintelligible so delighted to see rne get proper accept- ance-- That's what happened to rne- And then at the end of the letter it say, yes, when I got. through playing he wanted to talk to rne but words could not express what they felt. And they said we hope this letter will express what we couldn't do after the concert. There was so Inuch happening and so beautiful we had no words but We do want to say that we have a lot of leaders in America who are professing and proclairning they repre- sent God. VVell, actually they are Earth bound and they represent the Earth and that's where they going- They belong to the Earth but you talking something different and we know that the Creator smiles on you (and) on all your action and what you're doing- PI-I: That's beautiful. SR: Now, I got that letter, you see- 27 But anyway they put’ me on the spot. PI-I: You're on the spot. That's right (laughs). SR: I have to-talk to people but then that's in opposition to all preachers and religion and everything- Against govern- -rnents too because you're not supposed to have them people out there in that street. It's not supposed to be like that. So there's some missing factor that these people would fall so low. There's some missing factor and they just-lonely. They don't know what to do. And people not supposed to be in that jail with chains and padlocks. VVhy, they not even-they not doing that in no civilized country. Vvhere, see, when they reach a state where they can't control people and got to do that it means something is wrong. And something is wrong with that prison too. Because them people wouldn't be rioting and set the place on fire with thern in it unless they want the world to know son'1ething's wrong in America and sornething's wrong in that prison. And they say they put the padlocks on there because the inmates got some keys and they don't know‘ how many keys they got unintelligible. VVhy don't they put some new locks on there? It's not pro- per to do people like that. I'rn asharned- PI-I: I did see that. You Inentioned that the last time I talked with you. SR: I'rn asharned. People who are not criminal, they should speak up and get thern chains off of that. VVhy, they don't .28 even no padlocks on the anirnals in the zoo- Now, they talking about they Wor- shipping God. They better be careful- They better be very careful ‘cause Anierica Wasn't set up to do people like that- I rnean they good at talking and all talking about helping other people in the world that got sorne of their own sys- terns, doing that to thern- Charity begins at home, you know. So they don't need to be out there propagating dernocracy and everything like that and got sorne people here with chains and padlocks on the door. that's a terrible sharne, you know. PI-I: VVe1l, hopefully these changes sweep- ing the world will also sweep through our country too- SR: It's not going to change unless sornebody is speaking up and telling- the truth and they recognize it and don't crucify hirn. People are afraid to corne out and say things. They get crucified- But I got—I'rn saying look, what these people got to recognize is that if you do sornething bad you have to pay for it- That's why they got all these unin- telligible for that- VVe1l, what they don't realize (is) there's a higher power and have to pay- Of course you have to pay for doing sornething bad ‘cause you have for doing sornething good and you have to pay for doing nothing. That's rny Inessage to them. You will pay if—what—— ever you do your activity will pay. You will reap what you sow. They can try to rnake it be sornething else but they got to face facts- If they don't do 29 nothing they pay for that too- I'rn here to get rid of these illusions they got to try to Inake the world be what they want (it) to be rather what God want it to be or what it's supposed to be. They have failed to do that because what they have done is hurting people. And rnost certainly they got all of these millions and millions of people on this planet who are very unhappy. Now, sornething is wrong. And these people, it's a hard unintelligible planet- They need entertainrnent. VVell, they need pure entertainment. . . The world is changing and adjustingwit-— self and unintelligible have to adjust themselves and preachers got to adjust thexnselves. They got to change. They must change. But then it's hard to tell people to change and they ain't got no leader. _Now, I don't want to be no leader. But the point of it: I'rn a univer- sal leader. I could take care of the situ- ation but people are so...they in such a bad condition it terrifies me to look at thern now. I don't know what I'rn going to do because they not in the condition they's supposed to be. And they're vul-,+ nurable to terrible diseases and diseases you don't know and then people are rnistreating their friends. Yes, they II1iS— treat sornebody be kind to them and they take it for weakness- That is happening on this planet so how can I go out there and be kind to them and set rnyself up to be rnistreated and ‘abused? And I have been rnistreated and abused too. So now I don't feel to good about it. I'rn not against people but I'rn rnost certainly not here for that- I'rn 30 not here for abuse and for what they been doing to other leaders.Now, their condition is getting worse every day. It's tixne for them to listen and it ain't nobody for thern to listen to .but rne. That's the way it is ‘cause the Creator has reduced it down to one thing: l\/Ie- And he ain't got nobody else. And not going to send anybody else. Now, they can wait for Jesus or anybody- He not sending anybody except rne. Now that's it- It's like I told a fellow, "VVell, the Creator showed rne all kind of things- The World will have to 1is.ten." I said, "For instance, before the idea about the tree of knowledge of good and evil," I said, "That tree, it was way before Christianity." All these nations they had different religions but they'd have to really search to see what I'm saying because I don't know the narne of the books but I know they exist and they'll find out that way back there in early, what you rnight want to call religion, they were talking about that tree and they was talking about the fruit of the tree. And they said the fruit of the tree would be the S3111. The fruit of the tree would be the Sun s~—u—-n- They said that the rnother of the Sun of the person of the fruit of the tree would be narned Ida- That's the narne of my rnother. Now, that was back in what they rnight call (a tinie of) heathens or barbarians- They said the person that represent the Crea- _tor would be born of Ida- I—d—-a- And not 1\/Iary- Now all they got to do is to go and research and see I'In telling thern the truth. Now that was way be- fore this idea about the l\/Iary- The 1\/Iary 31 thing is a total different story. It means the sea. The narne of the sea is lVI—a—-r—e, l\/Iare (pronounced l\/Iary) and that's the reason the Pope wear that fish head. I-Ie's dealing with the sea. The world got to learn now that you got all these diff- erent rnythologies and things and man didn't make them. They canine frorn sornewhere else. But they had a choice as to what they would choose. Now, I'rn telling (them that") they got to go back and see that that book, it comes down to equations and the mother of the Sun is named Ida, not 1\/Iary. And the Gen- tile nations had that before they carne up talking about Hebrews and Jews. The Gentile nations was saying the naxne of the rnother of the Sun would be named Ida- Now, that you'll find a little of it over in this Bible that they got which is talking about the Treeof the Knowledge of Good and Evil- The Gentiles was say- ing that it should read like the Tree of the of the Ida- The tree of the Ida, not Knowledge. The tree of the idea ‘cause Ida means idea way back there. So the Tree of the Idea of Good and Evil. But then it's supposed to read The Tree of the Idea of Good and Ra- Now see, the churches not teaching that. But all they got to do is to go back way back in the past and deal with the Gentile nations and see what were they teaching? VVhat's the Norse legends? VVhat are the German- ic legends? They got to put all that to- gether because all these nations were given something by the Creator. And everything they were given is true. And ‘ everything every other nation get is true. But it's for that particular nation- 32 Now, people who call themselves Gen- tiles got to stand up and take what they had there and put it together and see it it fits over there with the Bible- The conception, the -idea an.d the conception- The conception itself rneans birth, you see. Then they got to deal with the word convictioon, you know. That's when a person have a conviction about sornething- Now, the word conviction also means to judge sornebody and put them in jail and that's why they got all these convictions and call these people convicts- Now, they got to stop and consider they in a word trap. And they got to adjust themselves- Vvell, they got to do sornething about these prisoners. You cannot have prisoners in the king- dorn of God. You cannot be teaching to forgive your brother seven times seven tirnes and you take your brother and you put hitn in jail. You can't do that because there is a God but very terrible indeed. VVorse than the Devil- And I tell you that they have to be careful- Very, very careful- And I got all that and like I was telling a friend of Inine- I said howdid I know all of this? I haven't rnet nobody that knew the naine of the mother of the Sun is narned Ida. I have not rnet one person who knew that. Now, where did I get it frorn? I was educated in Arnerica- But I know these things are true and all they got to do is to get the books and find it. And they'd get a surprise- The Sun is the S-—u—n but in Gerrnany it would be S-o—n——n—e. You see, they be spelling Sun another way- They spell it with the S-o—n. But that also fits '33 right in. Everything fits in. There's no contradiction. It fits‘ in. So now they have to deal with phonetics. And they go back there and see that that is the sound of God and not the son- This is the sound. Because it's the voice, you see- The sound and the voice and it comes right back to one word. Naxnely RA. Because that represented the mouth or the voice that narned RA is today-— In Egypt in the heiroglyphics it's got the sign of the eye of the mouth which de- Inonstrate about--And in this Bible they got, it speaks of the opening of the mouth. Now, everybody bypasses that part. It speaks about the opening of the mouth. That's ancient Egypt. Now, they got to get back to Egypt. And see, they had the truth too. And they unintelli- gible talking about immortality and infin- ity. The world is talking about sornething else. They were talking about the truth. Now, it makes a great problem for rne to know all of this and can prove it by equations and yet be alone on this planet with the knowledge they have forgotten- They have forgotten it. Because they turned it loose what they were doing and Gentiles jumped up and started to following Hebrews and things like that. But they have to get back now and see. what their ancestors talking about. That includes Japan, China, all the different nations. You got to carefully peruse what their ancestors talking about. ‘Cause what they were talking about fits right in with what's happening now. It fits right in. Now, I don't have the rnoney or anything to set up no ternple and all that kind of stuff but I'm much 34 better for the unintelligible in Jesus. ‘Cause they didn't have no culture and no art and no music. You can't set up no kind of kingdorn without that. You got to have culture and "art and beauty- Because you have to beautify people's souls ‘cause they corne in very rough, you know. Rough natured. I pick some people now, when I look at thern I shudder and black people in this country are ‘in such a dreadful condition untill it's worse than pitiful. Now, they get over in these projects and things and it's awful. It's worse than hell. It's sorne people don't even Want to go in those projects to give service. They is right on TV- VVoInan's unintelligible got off (and) she have to walk up eleven floors- Elevator out of order. Now, black people is not——they being treated worse than they was in slavery. ‘Cause their rnasters did take care of them‘. But they in a very unhealthy condition and they not learning nothing in schools- The teachers just pass thern on through to get rid of thern- Now, this is not suitable even in the kingdorn of the Devil- It's not suitable at all- Axnerica got to stop still-.- and listen if they want to survive- And besides that, I heard a white rninister tell a white audi- ence, he say, "You know, we have been very fortunate with God. But it's some things we are supposed to do for hirn and if We don't do it We going to lose our country-" I heard another white rninister say, "Yes, and you be sitting out there on the beach so you can get a Sun tan and don't want a black person to corne out there on your beach. ' 35 And I told another— (to) another (the Ininister) said ,"Yes, and you talking about freedorn all the tirne. You are not free. You're up under God. You're not free. You are just being free." Now, it's sornething going on but, you know, I heard these preachers down south. That's the Bible belt- They be talking the truth, they don't care who it hurts. VVell, I'm in a very rnost rniserable condition ‘cause I know these things and I know the world should know thern but I'In not a preacher, I'm not righteous, I'm not over in politics and the Creator got rne here alone on this planet because he ain't told nobody else what he has told me. Nobody else. Not even the pro-— phets. Not none of thern. Not angels. Nobody knows what I know. Now, that put me in a very lonely position- But everyday I see people suffering and going... terrible things and still seeing worse and it's really hurting me to know that, that they won't listen. And then I've had right in Iny band Where thern forces jurnped over and took Elo (Ornoe) and they used hirn rnost rnise—- rably- They sent hirn to the terrninal hospital to kill hirn. And I've had where he's jurnped in there and they got Danny ( Thornpson ). He possibly on dope or sornething like that. Sornething happened to thern. Both of thern- They weren't listening. So then I know what I'In talk- ing about is true. If they had listened they wouldn't be in the condition they in. But they did not listen to me. And any tirne these forces distract rnen in my organization and get the ones out I '36 patiently tried to teach for twenty years, I know what the world is facing. PI-I: Danny ( Thornpson ) is down in New Orleans- Is that right? SR: No he's not- Nobody_know where he unintelligible- A hit rnan out for hirn according to what I hear- PI-I: VVhat for? VVhat happened? SR: VVell, he possibly got over in to some dope some kind of way 'cause usually that's What it's about. Because he was acting very erratically. I-Ie pro-— bably was doing the same thing Elo was doing. 1\/Iessing with crack (cocaine) and cocaine some kind of Way 'cause he ran through some rnoney. He had—— In Calif- ornia he sold his rnother's place ( sold his mother's house after her death in, If I remember correctly, 1985- ). He was going to get a thousand dollars a month untill 1999. PH: Frorn the sale of his mother's house. SR: Some kind of way he ended up with getting with nothing before even 1990 got here. Now what could he possibly do with that rnoney except participate in dope? PI-I: And he was acting strangely and erratically? SR: Of course he was. You take, like he was up in New York- And he called vup 37 and said that three trailer trucks was following hixn. Then I told hirn, I said, "'VVell,A what are they following you for?" " I don't know," he say, "They probably want to harn'1—n:1e." I said, "VVel1, go back, turn around and go back to New York and see whether you telling the truth-" And then he called back and say, "I turned and I went into a rnotel and the trailer trucks foll- owed‘ rne into the rnotel (parking lot)." Now--."And one of thern (is) registered right next door to rne." Now, he was unintelligible through that- That wasn't true. So you see, he was halucinating. And so the forces got hirn, you see. PI-I: So you have no idea where he is now. SR: He called up" a friend of xnine and told hirn to send his rnail up but didn't give no address and he didn't give no phone number because he must know he'd be in a little trouble- ‘But he got truck. He took the truck. I-Ie know good and well he needed that for trans- portation but he didn't care nothing about me and what I was saying. He didn't believe I was representing the Creator or nothing so he just went on and he did what he did for his own selfish self- So that left the sax section with two people rnissing. But these forces I'rn dealing With, they don't play around. You have to be sincere- And they don't care how long they been with_ me. They have to be sincere and they have to be able (to have) discipline and precision. Otherwise it rnakes no diffe- '38 4"“- rence how long I've talked to thern- They going to get rid of thern even if they have to kill them. Now, that Inakes this very serious indeed. It's got Ine where I'rn really worried about What rnusicians get in this band because if they don't fit they going to die- Now, it's clown to very serious unintelligible. I was placed here for to do something. It's not going to let nobody stand in my way. Governrnents can fall, churches can fall (and) everything- But what I'rn talk- ing about is for the sake of humanity. And they have to listen- And I'In not Jesus Christ but they have to listen to or their friends now- They rnust listen- And that's it and I can't stop me from being propelled out there for nations to listen to. Now thezrn folks (who are) hi- jackers, they got to listen. Thein folks out there who unintelligible, they got to listen. They facing terrible danger if they don't listen 'cause the real Creator will come through and when he get through with thern they'll be sorry they ever was born. Now, that's my rnessage to the world. They rnust be careful- They rnust be very careful now- Because he let all these things go along and now he's taking over this planet and it's going to be straightened out. You will not have those prisoners. You will not have thern hospitals- You will not have even death itself to dernean and destroy hurnanity. It will not happen- That's rny rnessage. If he have to get rid of every governrnent on the planet he'll do it. If he have to get rid of every church he will do it. Only those who are sincere will be left standing- That's it. Now 39 it ain't no recourse talking about for—. giveness. He does not do that. You either can do the job or you can't. If you can't do it, that's it. It ain't no second chance. That's it. Of course, people like to feel that their God will take care of them. Of course he'll take care. Right over in the cernetary. He got some caretakers over there. That's what they call thern. Now, they need Wake up and see they're dealing with sornething terrible. In fact, in all busi- ness contracts they talk about the acts of God. Acts of God: Tornados, cyclones, tidal waves . . . PI-I: Earthquakes. . . SR: All those are acts of God. And death itself is an act and enactrnent of God. Act and enactrnent. You see, in order to rnake sornething a law it have to be an enactrnent so phonetically that means sornebody could come and act the part and the Bible says that. The law perforrnath the things that are appointed for us. It says that- l\/Ian is appointed once to die. Now, even the rnost ignorant person must listen. There's no excuse that they can't read. They rnust use their intuition and listen to rne and I don't want thern. I don't want to talk to them, I don't want no-— thing to do with this situation 'cause I've rissen up above all of this. I'rn not in the category of being a human being or a rnan. I've rissen above all that and I've given a Whole lifetirne. I gave up my life to do that because I haven't really lived- I don't have the nice things 40 other people have- I gave all them up. I gave up my life. I never lived it. So it's pure. I never lived and did the things I want to do and should have done. I didn't do it. I spent my life thinking about the Creator and trying to find out why hurnanity was suffer- ing. And I found out but I had to give up my life to do it. That's it. Now, they can believe it if they want to- And then ‘I was sitting back watching what was‘ happening, what grown people was doing in my generation: Neglecting the music. And I studied and I kept developing the music at the point where it should have been if they had sup- ported it. And that's the reason their children in trouble now ‘cause they don't have any music. And it's the elders and the grown people's fault that they're so busy thinking about sex and rnoney and religion and everything (that) they neglected the future for their children. So I stood there and I devel- oped it and I kept rnyself away from my generation and thern other people who was doing wrong- That's setting up the structure for their children and I see it just like I thought because they ne- glected the rnusic and thought about everything else but the future of their children. And that's it- Now, they have to be sincere (and) see I'm telling the truth. Anierica neglect the Inusic. God sent thern all kind of talent. I was listening to Jirnrny Lunceford today, fantastic. And those people were sincere and they was trying to do sornething beautiful for Arnerica and Arnerica killed them. -And I got my proof of other ' 4'1 rnusicians. God sent all kind of talented people here and Arnerica killed them. And they've been killing rnusicians a long tirne because of color and because they wouldn't be into the systern and they pure and sincere and they didn't bend and they kept on trying to do beautiful things and Arnerica killed thern. Now, they can listen to that ‘cause it's the truth. And _I saw it. And I'd see that I had to give up being involved in Iny generation and part of the main- streaxn of Arnerica because they were doing wrong by their children. And now I see their children rather sleep under a bridge than to be around thern and I don't blarne the children because they can see sornething is missing in their elders. And they don't know what to do. I'rn in a position where they going to listen to Ine because there ain't nobody else to tell thern anything but me. PI-I: It was really nice (that) you had a chance last night to reach rnillions of people. SR: I'rn not trying to reach thexn- They dead and dying. ‘What do I want with a dead kingdorn? The kingdom of the dead- As far as I'rn concerned every- body on this planet is dead but Ine. Because, you know, they don't have the truth. They following shadows and rnake believe stuff. I'rn not doing that. 'Cause I don't have to do it- I stand up against the governrnent and churches and schools and every rnan and wornan and ‘. child. And I've had that shown to me 42 a lot of tirnes and I didn't understand. Vvhen I first went to New York the building I was staying in got set on fire every night- And when I asked- It was a thirteen story building—And when I asked the owner of the building why those things were happening he ‘ said,''Your enernies-" I said,"but I just got to New York. I haven't done any- thing to rnake enernies. Are my enernies white or black?" I-Ie said,"The whole world.'' Now, I pushed it back in the back ‘of my mind. He said,"The whole world and they trying to run you out of New York 'cause you can do things but this is rny building and you stay here as long as you want to. Don't leave." That happened to me in New York City. Now, in Chicago, sornething happened to me where a voice carne out of heaven and said," Find your enernies and destroy thern." And I said then‘, "VVho are rny enernies? I'm not doing anything to rnake enernies-" There you are. So I've had these strange exper- iences of another being. Another being who's been my companion and protected me and taught rne these things. A very, dangerous friend to those who against me. Now, that rnakes me feel sad 'cause I'rn for everybody. But this force does not equivocate- No, it does not. You either are or you aren't. And what— ever you are, that's the way they'll be judged- People don't want to hear that. They all Want to talk about freedorn. But they are not free 'cause they didn't make thernselves. They did not make themselves so they owned by the one who made them, who let theni be. 43 They got to face it. They must face it'if they want to survive ‘cause he can get rid of them in the twinkling of an eye. And when you look at the world today and see the catastrophies unintelligible, they should wake up. VVake up now before it's too late.’ VVhen they go back and reading history and they read about this tidal wave that carne in Portugal and reached up and took about 200,000 or more‘ people out to sea in one split second. Now, they have to recognize the bad things that are happening to people and stop shutting their eyes. PH: VVhen did that happen? I've never heard about that. SR: VVe1l, you go back there in history. Portugal. It happened in the twinkling of an eye. This tidal wave carne on (and) just swept those people out to sea without warning. In Chicago, when I was there, people on the beach and everything. It was not a cloud in the sky or‘nothing and a big wave came up and took sorne people off the shore and boom, and they was gone. Now, a lot of things be happening and it be sort of like kept up under wraps but it's tirne for people to face reality. They must face it now ‘cause sornething is on the for them that going to obliterate every rnan, wornan and child on this planet. And the Pope has said so. And another fellow who a basketball player was on there the other night and he said that he was into basketball and they lost. He was so disappointed (and at the time) he was a teenager and he was 44 walking the beach or sornething and he rnet a horneless wornan. The horneless wornan talked to hirn and encouraged hirn and told hini things that nobody else had ever told hirn. It was an elderly homeless wornan- Now, he said it changed his whole life. He said since then he hasn't lost a garne. And he never saw the vvornan again- But he said now, we have to—he was talking» about all the bad things happen to people-we have to take care of one another now we all are going to die- That's what he said. We have to take care of one another now or we're all going to die. VVell, I'rn not the only one saying that. And did I tell you about Albert?—I told you about what this African said? PI-I: VVhat was that? SR: VVhat this African said at the rne1'n—- orial for Albert Ayler. PH: Yeah . SR: Yeah, he say he saw some Angels. And he's frorn Africa. Now, black folks talking about they (are) Africans- But here's an African calling them Angels. And the Bible does say Angels reserved in chains of darkness. That's talking about black folks in Arnerica- Reserved, chosen- It's very serious, you know. That Bible is a fantastic book- It's got everything in there- It's What you might say a...It concerns all nations. It touches upon every nation and it's over there dealing on that Russia too. Even cornpelled Gorbachev to go to the. Pope 45 and tell him they made a mistake, that they need religion. PH: Yes, I saw that. Did you see that? SR: Yes I saw it. 'Cause that's the way it is- It's true. Of course, people had ideas. Those men were honest and they had ideas about helping hurnanity. But how can you help hurnanity when they don't belong to man, they belong to the one who created unintelligible. And you can't do nothing without him. VVe11, I do say all of rnen—-all of them was try- ing hard to help hurnanity- But you can't help thern unless you have the authority. That's my rnessage. Now, I don't want to be giving no rnessage to Inan. He's in such a rnost rniserable condition. Like I said in the interview, when I see one now I want to run. I want to run. Juxnp out there with the animals and say let's go brothers. Unintelligible a man. I'd like to get in the wind. If I had me some wings I'd see the birds and I'd jurnp in there and I'd say let's go brothers and I wouldn't have nothing to do with the thing called rn—a—n. 'Cause they ain't got no future the he is. 1\/Iost dreadful- He full of disease and he dead and dying. VVhat do I want with sorneone like that? VVornan the sarne way and the children- It's rnost terrible for rne- I'rn an Angel. I'rn not used to nothing like this- I can't accept this- It's not for rne. And it's not for thern either. But they have to realize this is not a good creation- The Bible says that creation is unintelligible and into pain 46 and all that. VVhat do I want with a groaning creation? that book is true- Of course it's true- VVe11, anyway, I got to get myself together now- V Spencer's (VVeston) here and we going to go up to the office and look at the (show) I think. Talk to you later on. PI-I: Are you going to be home for the next few days? SR: ‘VVell, I'm thinking about going back to New York 'cause if they throw- ing snowballs at—This city is getting on rny nerves. I don't understand nothing like that. I'm scared to walk the street. PI-I: Are you going to .be at the Edison (I-Iotel)? SR: I don't know what I’In going to ‘do at this point. PI-I: OK, I'll keep rny eyes open for you. SR: I got rny ticket- I can catch a plane to Egypt. PI-I: That's fantastic. SR: OK, I'll talk to you later- PI-I: Talk to you later Sun Ra. 47 TOMMY HUNTER CONVE RSATION WITH PETER HINDS APRIL 9 5. 13, 1998 Peter I-Iinds: I want to thank you for all your contributions from me and my brother. VVe've been big fans of Sun Ra and the whole Arkestra for many, rnany years and friends with Sun 'Ra_and once again thank you for all you've done. Tornrny Hunter: VVell, thank you so much, you know. Thank you so much. It wasn't Ine. I was just part of it be- cause I believed in his rnusic and I be- lieved that whatever I did to help was (because) I. did it for that and it wasn't for nothing else. PI-I: That's sincerity right there and that's the word--.It's really a pleasure to talk to you and once again from my brother and I thank you for all your great contributions- TI-I: You know, I got to thank you. ‘cause it's people who collect the infor- mation and keep it and dedicate it, you know, otherwise everything that you've done or been with anybody that done anything gets lost and nobody really knows the truth about it- You talk to people or at least-frorn interviews and stuff I have read like John's book. PI-I: John Szwed's book (Space Is The Place). TI-I: They give half truths. VVe1l, that was because that's the way Sun Ra did- VVhen you was with Sun Ra you never knew what he was telling you. ‘Cause he was like that. ‘He always wanted to be on top and be ahead so you never 48 know what he was telling you. You never really know what if that's the way he really felt or ~ if that's the way he felt at that moment. VVell, he had the band—rnost of the people in the band was also like that, you know. He was saying...Sun Ra was funny- VVhat he told rne once was that it's not al-— ways the truth that...A lie is just as powerful as the truth is and a lie can rnove things when the truth can't. If you are (speaking) rnostly truth it's like electricity. That if you have nega- tive and positive and when they get equal there's nothing to be done. They can't do any work ‘cause they equal but when you have a positive and a negative and one is draining from the other, that (is when) you get work done- It does work so it doesn't rnean that you... (tape interruption)..’.you doing a diffe- rent version and it Inakes things happen. VVe1l, that's kind of his philosophy. VVel1, I rnean, I shouldn't be telling you that but you probably figured that out already. PI-I: John and I have...we've spent hun- dreds of hours talking with Sun Ra and so we had a very good friendship with Sun Ra so we've certainly been exposed to many, many ,rnany, many hours of his philosophy. TI-I: VVell, he certainly did a lot of things that I didn't understand but he was the leader of the band and I was vvith the band and I was free to leave any time I wanted to and so you say well, you know, if that's the way he 49 wants to do the things and you want to be a part of this you have to do, you know, you have to do your part. And, you know like, I knew Sun Ra before he was Sun Ra. PI-I: VVhen was that? Vvhen did you rneet hixn? I TI-I: I rnet Sun Ra in.-.when I come out of the Navy in '45? In '46 I went to the I\/Iusic Conservatory in Chicago and I met Sun Ra (when) we both got in Lil Green's band the same tirne. I met him- we both met the sarne tirne when We joined Lil Green's band. And we've been friends frorn that rnornent on. I didn't really understand what he was talking about but I wanted to know more and he was talking about Lil Green's hus- band wearing a cross- And we get in this little station wagon. About nine people in a little station wagon, you know, and everybody was drinking, everybody was drinking and they was drinking a lot (of) Old Crow or some- thing like that. Yeah, it was bourbon. They drink this and we got in this station wagon and they had a whole case so we all sitting all over top of each other and so when Sun Ra saw this cross around Howard Callender's neck—I rnean, he went out, rnan. He went out and he says, "Do you know.-- VVhat are you supposed to be doing? You killed Christ and then you wear the cross as a symbol as saying look at me, look at Ine what I did. Don't you dare corne back here again." You know, he says, "and you talking about 50 the crosses for varnpires." He says, "You not fooling nobody. The cross is not for the varnpires, the cross is for Christ if he comes back. You hold this cross up and he retreats-" He says, "You're not fooling Ine-" You know, and this stuff went on and on until1‘we got to Kalarnazoo, l\/Iichigan and I re- rnernber it like it was yesterday. VVe set down to do soundcheck and rehearse the band and do the soundcheck and Sun Ra just kept on and kept on ‘cause Howard was the first trurnpeter and Sun Ra just kept on and kept on untill they started- He carne after Sun Ra and they running around, they running around (laughs) the stage and finally they running around the building and Howard's got this little old rusty gun that probably didn't even work. PH: Really? , TH: And he's running (laughing) unin- telligible. It's the funniest shit you've ever seen in your life man. And Lil Green was a big wornan, real big wo- man. So she goes and she grabs Howard by the collar and takes the gun away from hirn and told him, "I'rn going to throw this rusty thing away and you put it away and I don't ever want to see you do this again." And she told Sun Ra, "You sit down and play your rnusic and keep your mouth shut." (PH and TH laugh) And so we went through the soundcheck and we played, we played the show—a lot of people there too—VVe played the show and we had to do extra show- After it was all over, we went 51 back to Chicago- Neither one of them said one word. Howard didn't drink- well, Sun Ra didn't drink anyway and I didn't drink, so Howard didn't drink a drop of whiskey on the way back- And the only other person didn't drink was Lonnie Fox and he was the driver. And everybody else in the band was wasted. That's how I met him. PH: ‘The natne of this trumpet player? His naxne again is.... TH: The trurnpet player was Lonnie Fox. The driver was his .brother which was Richard Fox of the farnous Fox brothers- PH: And the guy who was chasing Sun Ra with the little rusty gun..- TI-‘I: Howard Callender. That was Lil Green's husband. And the saxophone player was Sax Crawder. He was (in) a very farnous band -with, I guess, Earl Hines and the bands back in those days (1930's). He was also with Fletcher Henderson- PH’: C2—r-o-w——d——e——r. TH: C‘,—r—a-—-w—-d—e-—r I think- l\/Iy spelling could be wrong 'cause it's been a long time . PH: VVere you a photographer back then? TH: I was a photographer but I wasn't taking pictures then. I was taking pic-—-' 52 tures—-not taking pictures of rnusicians. I was taking pictures of snow ‘cause .at that time it snowed a lot in Chicago and they had these beautiful snow stornns so I was taking pictures of snow. Yeah, I wasn't taking pictures of people at that tirne- Occasionally I took some pictures but I Inight have taken a picture of Vernon Davis or somebody. But I wasn't turned on to taking pictures of music- ians. Sun Ra did that to rne- He turned that around when I started doing photo-— graphs of people but I...During the time in high‘ school I went to Arts High School and I was studying art and... PH: This was in Chicago? TI-I: No, before I went in the Navy. PH: So where did you go to high school? TI-I: I went to 1\/Iontclair I-Iigh School but then I Went to the Newark (NJ) I-Iigh School for the Arts. But I left that school and Went in the Navy because rny farnily Wasn't all that rich and so it Was either go to school or either get a job. I would have had to quit school and get a job- I-Iowever, sornebody found out about that and was helping rne so I wouldn't have to quit‘ school but even- tually I knew it was going to happen. I would've had to quit school so instead of doing that I went into the Navy and finished my high school in the Navy- PI-I: You started taking photographs then? Is that Where your interest started 53 in photography? TI-I: VVe1lA, I had started photography- it was during the time I was in high school, l\/Iontclair High School. And I started in the photography club at the YIVICA learning how to develop film and negatives and stuff like that.--so that's how I got into photography- And once I got in you get hooked, you know. April 9, 1998 ._—:-.-.-—__..—-._-.---.-——————._.:--.:——_.—.__———.._—___—.—.¢_;._;.__—_.————-———:.j_.::._.—:____:._..._. PI-I: You ever know a druxnrner in Chi- cago naxned Jarnes King? TI-I: No..-I knew Ike Day. Ike Day's the one that showed rne a lot of stuff. I knew Red Saunders, I knew Charles VVa1ton..-what's the narne? Von Free-— rnan's brother.-.VVel1, I knew---rnostly all the drummers, big drurnrners that they had there. I knew all of thern. PI-1: VVel1, that was an arnazing story. (see page 50) TH: VVel1, it's true. That's how I rnet Sun Ra- That's why I becarne so inter- ested and I got very interested in what he was saying. PI-I: VVhat was your initial irnpression of hirn when you rnet hirn? I rnean, he was obviously different- 54 rence how long I've talked to thern- They going to get rid of thern even if they have to kill them. Now, that Inakes this very serious indeed. It's got Ine where I'rn really worried about What rnusicians get in this band because if they don't fit they going to die- Now, it's clown to very serious unintelligible. I was placed here for to do something. It's not going to let nobody stand in my way. Governrnents can fall, churches can fall (and) everything- But what I'rn talk- ing about is for the sake of humanity. And they have to listen- And I'In not Jesus Christ but they have to listen to or their friends now- They rnust listen- And that's it and I can't stop me from being propelled out there for nations to listen to. Now thezrn folks (who are) hi- jackers, they got to listen. Thein folks out there who unintelligible, they got to listen. They facing terrible danger if they don't listen 'cause the real Creator will come through and when he get through with thern they'll be sorry they ever was born. Now, that's my rnessage to the world. They rnust be careful- They rnust be very careful now- Because he let all these things go along and now he's taking over this planet and it's going to be straightened out. You will not have those prisoners. You will not have thern hospitals- You will not have even death itself to dernean and destroy hurnanity. It will not happen- That's rny rnessage. If he have to get rid of every governrnent on the planet he'll do it. If he have to get rid of every church he will do it. Only those who are sincere will be left standing- That's it. Now 39 it ain't no recourse talking about for—. giveness. He does not do that. You either can do the job or you can't. If you can't do it, that's it. It ain't no second chance. That's it. Of course, people like to feel that their God will take care of them. Of course he'll take care. Right over in the cernetary. He got some caretakers over there. That's what they call thern. Now, they need Wake up and see they're dealing with sornething terrible. In fact, in all busi- ness contracts they talk about the acts of God. Acts of God: Tornados, cyclones, tidal waves . . . PI-I: Earthquakes. . . SR: All those are acts of God. And death itself is an act and enactrnent of God. Act and enactrnent. You see, in order to rnake sornething a law it have to be an enactrnent so phonetically that means sornebody could come and act the part and the Bible says that. The law perforrnath the things that are appointed for us. It says that- l\/Ian is appointed once to die. Now, even the rnost ignorant person must listen. There's no excuse that they can't read. They rnust use their intuition and listen to rne and I don't want thern. I don't want to talk to them, I don't want no-— thing to do with this situation 'cause I've rissen up above all of this. I'rn not in the category of being a human being or a rnan. I've rissen above all that and I've given a Whole lifetirne. I gave up my life to do that because I haven't really lived- I don't have the nice things 40 other people have- I gave all them up. I gave up my life. I never lived it. So it's pure. I never lived and did the things I want to do and should have done. I didn't do it. I spent my life thinking about the Creator and trying to find out why hurnanity was suffer- ing. And I found out but I had to give up my life to do it. That's it. Now, they can believe it if they want to- And then ‘I was sitting back watching what was‘ happening, what grown people was doing in my generation: Neglecting the music. And I studied and I kept developing the music at the point where it should have been if they had sup- ported it. And that's the reason their children in trouble now ‘cause they don't have any music. And it's the elders and the grown people's fault that they're so busy thinking about sex and rnoney and religion and everything (that) they neglected the future for their children. So I stood there and I devel- oped it and I kept rnyself away from my generation and thern other people who was doing wrong- That's setting up the structure for their children and I see it just like I thought because they ne- glected the rnusic and thought about everything else but the future of their children. And that's it- Now, they have to be sincere (and) see I'm telling the truth. Anierica neglect the Inusic. God sent thern all kind of talent. I was listening to Jirnrny Lunceford today, fantastic. And those people were sincere and they was trying to do sornething beautiful for Arnerica and Arnerica killed them. -And I got my proof of other ' 4'1 rnusicians. God sent all kind of talented people here and Arnerica killed them. And they've been killing rnusicians a long tirne because of color and because they wouldn't be into the systern and they pure and sincere and they didn't bend and they kept on trying to do beautiful things and Arnerica killed thern. Now, they can listen to that ‘cause it's the truth. And _I saw it. And I'd see that I had to give up being involved in Iny generation and part of the main- streaxn of Arnerica because they were doing wrong by their children. And now I see their children rather sleep under a bridge than to be around thern and I don't blarne the children because they can see sornething is missing in their elders. And they don't know what to do. I'rn in a position where they going to listen to Ine because there ain't nobody else to tell thern anything but me. PI-I: It was really nice (that) you had a chance last night to reach rnillions of people. SR: I'rn not trying to reach thexn- They dead and dying. ‘What do I want with a dead kingdorn? The kingdom of the dead- As far as I'rn concerned every- body on this planet is dead but Ine. Because, you know, they don't have the truth. They following shadows and rnake believe stuff. I'rn not doing that. 'Cause I don't have to do it- I stand up against the governrnent and churches and schools and every rnan and wornan and ‘. child. And I've had that shown to me 42 a lot of tirnes and I didn't understand. Vvhen I first went to New York the building I was staying in got set on fire every night- And when I asked- It was a thirteen story building—And when I asked the owner of the building why those things were happening he ‘ said,''Your enernies-" I said,"but I just got to New York. I haven't done any- thing to rnake enernies. Are my enernies white or black?" I-Ie said,"The whole world.'' Now, I pushed it back in the back ‘of my mind. He said,"The whole world and they trying to run you out of New York 'cause you can do things but this is rny building and you stay here as long as you want to. Don't leave." That happened to me in New York City. Now, in Chicago, sornething happened to me where a voice carne out of heaven and said," Find your enernies and destroy thern." And I said then‘, "VVho are rny enernies? I'm not doing anything to rnake enernies-" There you are. So I've had these strange exper- iences of another being. Another being who's been my companion and protected me and taught rne these things. A very, dangerous friend to those who against me. Now, that rnakes me feel sad 'cause I'rn for everybody. But this force does not equivocate- No, it does not. You either are or you aren't. And what— ever you are, that's the way they'll be judged- People don't want to hear that. They all Want to talk about freedorn. But they are not free 'cause they didn't make thernselves. They did not make themselves so they owned by the one who made them, who let theni be. 43 They got to face it. They must face it'if they want to survive ‘cause he can get rid of them in the twinkling of an eye. And when you look at the world today and see the catastrophies unintelligible, they should wake up. VVake up now before it's too late.’ VVhen they go back and reading history and they read about this tidal wave that carne in Portugal and reached up and took about 200,000 or more‘ people out to sea in one split second. Now, they have to recognize the bad things that are happening to people and stop shutting their eyes. PH: VVhen did that happen? I've never heard about that. SR: VVe1l, you go back there in history. Portugal. It happened in the twinkling of an eye. This tidal wave carne on (and) just swept those people out to sea without warning. In Chicago, when I was there, people on the beach and everything. It was not a cloud in the sky or‘nothing and a big wave came up and took sorne people off the shore and boom, and they was gone. Now, a lot of things be happening and it be sort of like kept up under wraps but it's tirne for people to face reality. They must face it now ‘cause sornething is on the for them that going to obliterate every rnan, wornan and child on this planet. And the Pope has said so. And another fellow who a basketball player was on there the other night and he said that he was into basketball and they lost. He was so disappointed (and at the time) he was a teenager and he was 44 walking the beach or sornething and he rnet a horneless wornan. The horneless wornan talked to hirn and encouraged hirn and told hini things that nobody else had ever told hirn. It was an elderly homeless wornan- Now, he said it changed his whole life. He said since then he hasn't lost a garne. And he never saw the vvornan again- But he said now, we have to—he was talking» about all the bad things happen to people-we have to take care of one another now we all are going to die- That's what he said. We have to take care of one another now or we're all going to die. VVell, I'rn not the only one saying that. And did I tell you about Albert?—I told you about what this African said? PI-I: VVhat was that? SR: VVhat this African said at the rne1'n—- orial for Albert Ayler. PH: Yeah . SR: Yeah, he say he saw some Angels. And he's frorn Africa. Now, black folks talking about they (are) Africans- But here's an African calling them Angels. And the Bible does say Angels reserved in chains of darkness. That's talking about black folks in Arnerica- Reserved, chosen- It's very serious, you know. That Bible is a fantastic book- It's got everything in there- It's What you might say a...It concerns all nations. It touches upon every nation and it's over there dealing on that Russia too. Even cornpelled Gorbachev to go to the. Pope 45 and tell him they made a mistake, that they need religion. PH: Yes, I saw that. Did you see that? SR: Yes I saw it. 'Cause that's the way it is- It's true. Of course, people had ideas. Those men were honest and they had ideas about helping hurnanity. But how can you help hurnanity when they don't belong to man, they belong to the one who created unintelligible. And you can't do nothing without him. VVe11, I do say all of rnen—-all of them was try- ing hard to help hurnanity- But you can't help thern unless you have the authority. That's my rnessage. Now, I don't want to be giving no rnessage to Inan. He's in such a rnost rniserable condition. Like I said in the interview, when I see one now I want to run. I want to run. Juxnp out there with the animals and say let's go brothers. Unintelligible a man. I'd like to get in the wind. If I had me some wings I'd see the birds and I'd jurnp in there and I'd say let's go brothers and I wouldn't have nothing to do with the thing called rn—a—n. 'Cause they ain't got no future the he is. 1\/Iost dreadful- He full of disease and he dead and dying. VVhat do I want with sorneone like that? VVornan the sarne way and the children- It's rnost terrible for rne- I'rn an Angel. I'rn not used to nothing like this- I can't accept this- It's not for rne. And it's not for thern either. But they have to realize this is not a good creation- The Bible says that creation is unintelligible and into pain 46 and all that. VVhat do I want with a groaning creation? that book is true- Of course it's true- VVe11, anyway, I got to get myself together now- V Spencer's (VVeston) here and we going to go up to the office and look at the (show) I think. Talk to you later on. PI-I: Are you going to be home for the next few days? SR: ‘VVell, I'm thinking about going back to New York 'cause if they throw- ing snowballs at—This city is getting on rny nerves. I don't understand nothing like that. I'm scared to walk the street. PI-I: Are you going to .be at the Edison (I-Iotel)? SR: I don't know what I’In going to ‘do at this point. PI-I: OK, I'll keep rny eyes open for you. SR: I got rny ticket- I can catch a plane to Egypt. PI-I: That's fantastic. SR: OK, I'll talk to you later- PI-I: Talk to you later Sun Ra. 47 TOMMY HUNTER CONVE RSATION WITH PETER HINDS APRIL 9 5. 13, 1998 Peter I-Iinds: I want to thank you for all your contributions from me and my brother. VVe've been big fans of Sun Ra and the whole Arkestra for many, rnany years and friends with Sun 'Ra_and once again thank you for all you've done. Tornrny Hunter: VVell, thank you so much, you know. Thank you so much. It wasn't Ine. I was just part of it be- cause I believed in his rnusic and I be- lieved that whatever I did to help was (because) I. did it for that and it wasn't for nothing else. PI-I: That's sincerity right there and that's the word--.It's really a pleasure to talk to you and once again from my brother and I thank you for all your great contributions- TI-I: You know, I got to thank you. ‘cause it's people who collect the infor- mation and keep it and dedicate it, you know, otherwise everything that you've done or been with anybody that done anything gets lost and nobody really knows the truth about it- You talk to people or at least-frorn interviews and stuff I have read like John's book. PI-I: John Szwed's book (Space Is The Place). TI-I: They give half truths. VVe1l, that was because that's the way Sun Ra did- VVhen you was with Sun Ra you never knew what he was telling you. ‘Cause he was like that. ‘He always wanted to be on top and be ahead so you never 48 know what he was telling you. You never really know what if that's the way he really felt or ~ if that's the way he felt at that moment. VVell, he had the band—rnost of the people in the band was also like that, you know. He was saying...Sun Ra was funny- VVhat he told rne once was that it's not al-— ways the truth that...A lie is just as powerful as the truth is and a lie can rnove things when the truth can't. If you are (speaking) rnostly truth it's like electricity. That if you have nega- tive and positive and when they get equal there's nothing to be done. They can't do any work ‘cause they equal but when you have a positive and a negative and one is draining from the other, that (is when) you get work done- It does work so it doesn't rnean that you... (tape interruption)..’.you doing a diffe- rent version and it Inakes things happen. VVe1l, that's kind of his philosophy. VVel1, I rnean, I shouldn't be telling you that but you probably figured that out already. PI-I: John and I have...we've spent hun- dreds of hours talking with Sun Ra and so we had a very good friendship with Sun Ra so we've certainly been exposed to many, many ,rnany, many hours of his philosophy. TI-I: VVell, he certainly did a lot of things that I didn't understand but he was the leader of the band and I was vvith the band and I was free to leave any time I wanted to and so you say well, you know, if that's the way he 49 wants to do the things and you want to be a part of this you have to do, you know, you have to do your part. And, you know like, I knew Sun Ra before he was Sun Ra. PI-I: VVhen was that? Vvhen did you rneet hixn? I TI-I: I rnet Sun Ra in.-.when I come out of the Navy in '45? In '46 I went to the I\/Iusic Conservatory in Chicago and I met Sun Ra (when) we both got in Lil Green's band the same tirne. I met him- we both met the sarne tirne when We joined Lil Green's band. And we've been friends frorn that rnornent on. I didn't really understand what he was talking about but I wanted to know more and he was talking about Lil Green's hus- band wearing a cross- And we get in this little station wagon. About nine people in a little station wagon, you know, and everybody was drinking, everybody was drinking and they was drinking a lot (of) Old Crow or some- thing like that. Yeah, it was bourbon. They drink this and we got in this station wagon and they had a whole case so we all sitting all over top of each other and so when Sun Ra saw this cross around Howard Callender's neck—I rnean, he went out, rnan. He went out and he says, "Do you know.-- VVhat are you supposed to be doing? You killed Christ and then you wear the cross as a symbol as saying look at me, look at Ine what I did. Don't you dare corne back here again." You know, he says, "and you talking about 50 the crosses for varnpires." He says, "You not fooling nobody. The cross is not for the varnpires, the cross is for Christ if he comes back. You hold this cross up and he retreats-" He says, "You're not fooling Ine-" You know, and this stuff went on and on until1‘we got to Kalarnazoo, l\/Iichigan and I re- rnernber it like it was yesterday. VVe set down to do soundcheck and rehearse the band and do the soundcheck and Sun Ra just kept on and kept on ‘cause Howard was the first trurnpeter and Sun Ra just kept on and kept on untill they started- He carne after Sun Ra and they running around, they running around (laughs) the stage and finally they running around the building and Howard's got this little old rusty gun that probably didn't even work. PH: Really? , TH: And he's running (laughing) unin- telligible. It's the funniest shit you've ever seen in your life man. And Lil Green was a big wornan, real big wo- man. So she goes and she grabs Howard by the collar and takes the gun away from hirn and told him, "I'rn going to throw this rusty thing away and you put it away and I don't ever want to see you do this again." And she told Sun Ra, "You sit down and play your rnusic and keep your mouth shut." (PH and TH laugh) And so we went through the soundcheck and we played, we played the show—a lot of people there too—VVe played the show and we had to do extra show- After it was all over, we went 51 back to Chicago- Neither one of them said one word. Howard didn't drink- well, Sun Ra didn't drink anyway and I didn't drink, so Howard didn't drink a drop of whiskey on the way back- And the only other person didn't drink was Lonnie Fox and he was the driver. And everybody else in the band was wasted. That's how I met him. PH: ‘The natne of this trumpet player? His naxne again is.... TH: The trurnpet player was Lonnie Fox. The driver was his .brother which was Richard Fox of the farnous Fox brothers- PH: And the guy who was chasing Sun Ra with the little rusty gun..- TI-‘I: Howard Callender. That was Lil Green's husband. And the saxophone player was Sax Crawder. He was (in) a very farnous band -with, I guess, Earl Hines and the bands back in those days (1930's). He was also with Fletcher Henderson- PH’: C2—r-o-w——d——e——r. TH: C‘,—r—a-—-w—-d—e-—r I think- l\/Iy spelling could be wrong 'cause it's been a long time . PH: VVere you a photographer back then? TH: I was a photographer but I wasn't taking pictures then. I was taking pic-—-' 52 tures—-not taking pictures of rnusicians. I was taking pictures of snow ‘cause .at that time it snowed a lot in Chicago and they had these beautiful snow stornns so I was taking pictures of snow. Yeah, I wasn't taking pictures of people at that tirne- Occasionally I took some pictures but I Inight have taken a picture of Vernon Davis or somebody. But I wasn't turned on to taking pictures of music- ians. Sun Ra did that to rne- He turned that around when I started doing photo-— graphs of people but I...During the time in high‘ school I went to Arts High School and I was studying art and... PH: This was in Chicago? TI-I: No, before I went in the Navy. PH: So where did you go to high school? TI-I: I went to 1\/Iontclair I-Iigh School but then I Went to the Newark (NJ) I-Iigh School for the Arts. But I left that school and Went in the Navy because rny farnily Wasn't all that rich and so it Was either go to school or either get a job. I would have had to quit school and get a job- I-Iowever, sornebody found out about that and was helping rne so I wouldn't have to quit‘ school but even- tually I knew it was going to happen. I would've had to quit school so instead of doing that I went into the Navy and finished my high school in the Navy- PI-I: You started taking photographs then? Is that Where your interest started 53 in photography? TI-I: VVe1lA, I had started photography- it was during the time I was in high school, l\/Iontclair High School. And I started in the photography club at the YIVICA learning how to develop film and negatives and stuff like that.--so that's how I got into photography- And once I got in you get hooked, you know. April 9, 1998 ._—:-.-.-—__..—-._-.---.-——————._.:--.:——_.—.__———.._—___—.—.¢_;._;.__—_.————-———:.j_.::._.—:____:._..._. PI-I: You ever know a druxnrner in Chi- cago naxned Jarnes King? TI-I: No..-I knew Ike Day. Ike Day's the one that showed rne a lot of stuff. I knew Red Saunders, I knew Charles VVa1ton..-what's the narne? Von Free-— rnan's brother.-.VVel1, I knew---rnostly all the drummers, big drurnrners that they had there. I knew all of thern. PI-1: VVel1, that was an arnazing story. (see page 50) TH: VVel1, it's true. That's how I rnet Sun Ra- That's why I becarne so inter- ested and I got very interested in what he was saying. PI-I: VVhat was your initial irnpression of hirn when you rnet hirn? I rnean, he was obviously different- 54 TI-I: VVell, I thought that the‘.'. .I thought that he was very knowledgable and V intelligent, you know- That was first watch him rehearse the show and ‘ re-- hearse the band for Red Saunders and it was funny, Red Saunders would get rnent right under him. I rnean, it was rnore pencil marks. I guess he had to‘ have it recopied; -He used to change it —-and it swung too. Do you know..-what's his narne? Joe..-.p1ayed with ‘Count Basie- PI-I: Joe VVi11iaIns. . TI-I: Joe Williams was with the band that was doing"the show and that was one of the nurnbers and it seemed to rne"1ike‘ Everyday I got the Blues, it seerns like Count Basie did the same arrangernent that Red Saunders had and Sun Ra's the one that changed that- I don't know who did the arrangernent but Sun Ra changed the arrangement around-‘ And he would, like, he would do that every week when the band, you know, they'd do a show and they'd change the show every week and Sun Ra would go in’ on 1\/Ionday and Tuesaday and rehearse the band ‘and re—- hearse the dancers- That's where he got the dances, a lot of his dancing frorn. 55 And he had a choregrapher. I can't re-— rnernber his narne. (He) VVas good and after they rehearsed the band then they would rehearse the dancers but the band didn't play for the dancers, Sun Ra played for the dancers. He just played piano with the dancers unintel- ligible rehearsal for I guess it would have been too expensive to have them stop and then start, you know, just sit there and play two bars, four bars and then have to stop- And the choreagra— pher would work with him and so Sun Ra was doing that by hisself on the piano. Now, he said that I had rnet.-. the bandleader, the other band leader that was there before Red Saunders. He said that I had rnet hirn and I can't re- rnernber because at the tirne I went to I didn't know anything about—I -didn't know hirn. I didn't know anything about the band. I didn't know anything about rnusic, about rnusicians and bands or what not. The initial time that I started studying rnusic was Fats VVa1ler and then frorn Fats VValler, since I was studying saxophone it was Fats VVa11er and after that it was Louis Jordan and Lionel I-Ianripton was around that tiztne. And they had rnade those popular tunes un- intelligible. That's how I got introduced to Inusic was through that- PI-I: So you were playing saxophone. TI-I: VVe1l, it was rny first instrurnent- VVhen I went to Chicago I was playing drurns then because I changed from sax-— ophone to drurns because of there was no place in the school band for a saxo- 56 phone player. They was all taken up by girls and everybody played saxophone- So the only thing open was tuba and trornbone or something like that. I didn't want to play that so to really get in the band,- there. wasn't too rnany drummers. So I got in to playing drums. At least I got, you know, the first year I was able to play with the rnarching band. And so that's why I changed (to) drurns. And along the way I was still taking saxophone lessons but along the way coxne Charlie Parker, you know, that's why I changed, that's why I stuck to drurns. PI-I: And you also got into recording, Tape recorders and things like that- ' TI-I: I got into tape recorders from Sun Ra. PI-I: VVhat was his influence? TI-I: After I Inet Sun Ra-..The union started giving rne lots of jobs and so I was so tiredywhen I'd go to school I'd go to sleep and they caught rne sleeping a lot and I dropped out. You know, when I went into the Navy I told you I got my Art's High School diplorna but I was de- ficient in english so I couldn't really get into...what's the narne? Unless I took an english class. I unintelligible an english class at a university on the sarne street as I was going to the conservatory--. Roosevelt College. OK, and so after missing so Inany days in the rnonth they expelled rne- After two years I got ex- pelled. And so then I had to work ‘cause 57 I was going (to school) under the G-I- Bill so I didn't have any money after I stopped -school 'cause my G.I- Bill stopped. So then I had to work so I to work more steady than what the union was giving rne- So I got a job at Calumet City playing drurns with one of the big piano players unintelligible. But anyway, he got tired and so he quit and the owner of this club in Calumet City said, "Listen, I like you so why don't you get sorne other people and make your own band and corne out." So I did. I got Sun Ra and I got Jirnrny Boyd and Red Holloway- PI-I: Jirnrny Boyd? TI-I: Jirnrny Boyd who used to play piano with this farnous singer.-.Anita O‘ Day. And at that tirne he was playing trurnpet and piano and he's a better‘ trurnpet player I guess. I thought ‘he was a better trurnpet player than piano. PI-I: So it was you and Sun Ra and .Iirnrny Boyd and... TH: So yeah, me and Sun Ra. I took the band and so Sun Ra played with me untill the incident I told you where he sent Ine back home and-.-that's how I started working with hirn- PI-I: And the tape recording? TI-I: And Sun Ra had a tape recorder. PI-I: OK, Sun Ra had a tape recorder. 58 TI-I: Sun Ra had a tape recorder and he would bring it to the job (at) Calumet City and he would tape everything every night. Every night he taped everything. But when I heard it back it wasn't the best. To rne it wasn't, didn't. really rep- resent what we was doing. It was just like a record- And so I told Sun Ra I'd like to have a tape recorder of my own. So he took rne clown to’ Lyon's and I-Iealey and for five dollars down I got a VVebcor. I think that's the narne of it. And I started taking the Vvebcor around to jam sessions. They still had jarn sessions every l\/Ionday and Tuesday or l\/Ionday and VVednesday, whatever. I used to take it around and record the jarn sessions. You know, it's so stupid ‘cause I had so many good tapes. VVe1l, I thought was good. Like Sonny Stitt and all those people that was there and I was taping all of that. But the tapes was paper tapes and thetapes would break and so I would throw them away. Now, Sun Ra didn't do that. Sun Ra kept all his tapes. ‘But I would throw my tape away and for three dollars I could get another tape. It only took the five inch rolls on the machine. So that's how I got into taping and then I started tap- ing (and) placing the microphone untill I would find the place that I could hear everybody and everybody would be in balance and whatnot. That's why I used- when I was doing recordings or when I I do recording I very seldorn II1iC the drurnrner. ‘Cause the rnic, if you rnic the drurnrner it doesn't sound 1ike...It sounds studioish and it doesn't sound like it's-.- It doesn't sound natural because you hear 59 the drurnrner over the band. You don't hear hirn dorninate, you know. So I got in the habit- I never rniced the drurn1n—— ers. And to this day I don't rnic the drummers unless it's a real big band and they just block out the drummer or just the drummer just can't be heard or what not. Or he's playing some integral part that's just got to be in there- So that's how I came to do recording- And of course I was always taking photographs. And then when I got with Sun Ra's band when he carne to New York then he gave rne-..VVe1l, even before he carne back 'cause I was working in a recording studio. Not recording studio, rehearsal studio. So I was ‘doing photographs of dancers and actors and things on the weekend, charging them five dollars for a photograph. PI-I: The Choreographer's VVorkshop'? TI-I: No, before I 'went to Choreograph- er's VVorkshop I was Working at Variety Arts. I was working for Variety Arts and they had, they had three, three re- hearsal studios in New York City. Colurnbus Circle was the one I was work-— ing and rnanaging. And then they had a showcase which I worked at sometimes on the weekend or if somebody wanted to take off I worked at the showcase. And then after they tore the building clown at Colurnbus Circle, he had to have another one and that's when he took on the building at Choreographer's VVorkshop- Now, I was living in Bayside with my faxnily so he gave me the apart- rnent on the top floor at Choreographer's 60 VVorkshop, so I lived there. And so that's how it was open because they could corne and rehearse at night, the band could come and rehearse at night 'cause the studios closed at 9:00. .So the band could come in at 10:00 and I was the only one there. VVith my job I had to sweep up the studios so they had nobody there. VVas nobody there but me and my girlfriend. We were living to- gether and so the band would come in and rny girlfriend would cook for every- body and we would stay there 'till 12:00 or 1:00 rehearsing the band- So even- tually I started recording 'cause I was ~ lucky I found an Arnpex 602 in a pawn shop 'cause I couldn't afford to buy (one). And that was a professional rnachine and I couldn't afford to buy one new. So I found one in the pawn shop for five hundred dollars. And so I was buying microphones one at a tirne ‘cause the good rnicrophones was, like used studio rnics I would buy for fourty dollars. Didn't have no rnixer. so I rnade my own rnixing board and that's the way I started recording it. And for a long time, why I guess rnaybe about four years, I recorded Sun Ra with just four rnicrophones- And,of course, I was buy- ing the tape 'cause I was doing it for rnyself and then Sun Ra want to hear the tape and he would take the tape and then I wouldn't seepit no rnore. Next thing I know—at the saxne tirne I had started working with Richard Otto and Sarah l\/IcLaw1er but I still had the ‘studio. I still had the studio, I still lived there and when I was in town I did my job managing the studio, renting the 61 roorns and stuff. And so they still carne in and it went on untill I went to Swe- den and then when I went to Sweden I didn't corne back-..when I came back that Was in like-..I went to Sweden in what? '64. And I didn't corne back untill '65. I carne back Where I played (with Sun Ra) with hirn at the Village Gate and I played with hirn in New York and for the two weeks I was horne We was re- cording this stuff. Then I went back to Sweden and then when they started corning to Europe he started sending for me. But I didn't want to corne ‘cause I was in filrn school there and I didn't want to corne horne to just rehearse for so he would write the parts and send thern to rne- He would write the drurn parts and he didn't really like to do that. He didn't like to do that. He didn't like the drummers to have music because he wanted you to be able to react ‘cause he wanted to even the rnusicians to play differently. So anyway, it worked out fine. And the first concert, I think the first big concert that.-.that included Stockholrn was the one that we went to Egypt. And I played saxophone rnostly... l\/Ie (and) Lex (I-Iuxnphries) played drurns but I had corne to the states and We re-— hearsed in California for the concert and then after that we left for European con- cert. So it was the second big concert- The first big concert I was already in Stockholrn. VVas the second big concert that I went with hirn and then we went to Egypt. And that's when I played, I was playing both drums and saxophone in the band. 62 PH: Alto sax? TH: Yeah. On those records from Egypt I'rn playing, rnaybe on three or four different nurnbers- PH: And you rnentioned Egypt. I've al- ways wondered which pyramid did Sun Ra go into? TH: The biggest one. PH: OK, that's the pyratnid of Cheops (Khufu). TH: And whoever gave that thing (story) to John (Szwed), whoever, I don't know who told John but they apparently was sornebody that told hixn that wasn't there because it was only three of us that went in the pyrarnid. VVas rne, Danny Thomp- son and Sun Ra. There was nobody else- So I don't know. Danny couldn't have told hirn ‘cause Danny knows better stories than that. Danny was with him. But whoever told that story to John, they didn't tell it just right. Or rnaybe Danny did and Danny, following tradition, Sun Ra tradition, they don't tell every- thing. PH: VVhat happened? TH: VVe1l, we go into_the pyrarnid and Sun Ra takes his Inusic, selects the rnusic before we go. He selects the Inusic and puts it on a cassette tape. So then we go in with one of those portable cass- ette tape players. It was hand held. VVe go into the pyrarnid. VVe had to clirnb it. 63 I think it took us about ten or twelve rninutes to reach to the top (the en- trance). And it's just enough roorn that you can get through that thing they had, board that went all the way from the tbottoxn. VVel1, in the Inidd1e.--I-Ialf of the pyrarnid you clixnb up rocks and then they found the entrance. And so you go in the entrance. Then they have, they had bored holes and you could clirnb up, they had a wooden plank with two by fours nailed to the plank like it was a real lad- der and you walked up this plank- It was steep though (referring to the Grand Gallery) and untill you come to the Queens Roorn and-..(correcting hirnself) "Queens Charnber"--- PI-I: You had to crawl though, right? You had to crawl on_hands and knees, right?) TI-I: Yeah. PI-I: Yeah, that's arnazing- TI-I: And then we went in the "Queens Charnber" and then we carne out (and) we went to the top (charnber) of the pyrarnid where they have the "Kings Charnber." Now, when we get in there Sun Ra says, "I'rn going to play my rnusic-" And he had read sorneplace that if you say Ra nine tiines sozrnething was supposed to happen- OK, so we go in, we go in the charnber and Sun Ra ex—— aniines the whole wall and he finds the (so called) air vent. And he could feel the fresh air coining in. So he plays, he puts his tape recorder speaker to the air Vent and he plays his rnusic. After this 64 The Great Pyramid, cross-section looking west . entrance to descending corridor . unfinished chamber . ascending corridor . Grand Gallery . Queen's Chamber . unfinished shafts 7. shafts leading to surface from King's Chamber 8. shaft leading to descending corridor CD 9. King's Chamber ‘. :,’.i 050'!-500k!-i Diagram of the Great Pyrarnid of Cheops/Khufu at Giza . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Sun Ra, Danny Thompson and Tornrny Hunter entered the pyra- rnid (1) and crawled first to the Queen's Charnber (5) and then crawled back to the Grand Gallery (4) and walked to the King's Chann- ber (9) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- section of the music plays, then hirn and Danny said in unison, "Sun Ra, Sun Ra, Sun Ra.--" for nine tirnes- On the ninth tirne the lights went out. Now, about this tirne I'm standing by the door and that shaft (descending shaft), if you rniss it you not going to catch your- self and you'going to go all the way down. You going to go down past the entrance. They had this thing that could go down to the bottorn of the pyramid ( A shaft that connects the ascending corridor at the base of the Grand Gall- ery to the descending corridor which runs approxirnately one hundred feet in to the bedrock under the pyrarnid). You could slide all the way and I'm sure you would be dead by the tirne-.. PI-I: It would be a pretty rough slide, that's for sure- TH: Anyway, when the lights (went out), I was right outside, I walked right out- side the charnbers but I didn't know exactly where that place where we enter— ed. I didn't know—I knew it was about four or five feet from the entrance but I didn't know, with the lights out, I didn't know what direction. So I stood there. I got outside the chamber and I stood there and I could hear they was pretty excited in the charnber. ‘Cause we had a guide and this guide was a old rnan with a white’ robe on. He had white hair and he had this long stick that he used to walk with. So, now, he had candles. Now, maybe he had sornething to do with that ‘cause he had these can- dles and this robe and they, they lit 65 these candles in the charnber and they walked it outside- Now, when they walk outside (into a srnall roorn outside the chaxnber) he cornes out first with this candle and as soon as he gets out the side of the entance he turns right in to rne and I'rn standing there with my arrns folded ‘cause I'rn petrified- I'rn afraid to rnove- This rnan jurnped straight up, straight up in the air and here comes Sun Ra and Danny right behind hirn. They jurnped straight up ‘cause I looked like, I guess with that candle in my face I rnust have scared thern. The rnan never called rne Son no rnore- He. was calling Sun Ra father and he was calling rne Son. The man didn't speak to rne no more (laughs). About two or three Ininutes after they carne out, the lights caxne back on-’And so we was able to go outside the pyramid. That man disappeared- I never saw hirn again (laughing)- I rnust have scared the shit out of hirn. Alrnost happened to rne too. I was in one of those underground things in..I think it was another city- And we had to ride donkeys in the rniddle of the desert and was no pyrarnids- Then we found this opening in the sand and we go down into, we go dovvn underneath the desert and they had this beautiful stone thing under there with different roorns and different burial places and everything- PI-I: This rnust be the Valley of the Kings. TI-I: Yeah, probably was. So now I get lost- I'rn looking'at sornething and they went and left rne and I couldn't find 66 thern. But I could hear thern talking but I couldn't find them. I turned the wrong Way and so I looked through this hole and there was this," there was this statue looking backiat me and the way the light was hitting it, it looked so real and I jurnped up and I hit my head 'cause the ceiling was low. Anyway, I get out of there- Now, this is the strange part: After I leave there I found a room beautifully painted with the paintings was—you know, it looked like they was just done. And they had paintings on the Wall and they had musicians and dancers and whatnot and it seemed like I could hear the rnusic and I could see the people dancing and it se-erned like I could read the heiroglyphics. This puzzled me. Now I'm getting delirious and I want to get out of there because I think maybe I'm joining the-..what do they call it’? The sornething of the dead. ‘So I find a Way out and when I find my way out I find rnyself outside in a patio and where we went was underground. But where I came out——I carne out in this patio and pretty soon I stood there try- ing to figure out—'cause I couldn't hear Sun Ra and them anyInore—-and I figured out: VVell,. where am I going to go? I don't see nothing in any direction I go to. I don't see nothing- But then here cornes Sun Ra and the group- They corne out too. So by this tirne I had a headache you wouldn't believe- I guess fronri hitting rny head and I had a head-— ache. So then we leave and we go back inside and then we go back out and clirnb up the stairs and corne back out in the sand Where the donkeys are. 67 Now, from the donkeys I cannot see that patio. It was just like sornething disappeared—soInething appeared right in the open Sun and everything but we was underground. And I haven't been able to explain that to rnyself. So that was how that came about. That was two days that we went. One day We went in the pyra- rnid, the next day we went up to, I guess it was the Valley of the Kings. PI-I: I'was wondering (about) that photo on the cover of the Black 1\/Iyth Equa- tion Vibration alburn- One of the albums recorded in Egypt and you must have taken that photo I suppose- It shows Sun Ra and a few other people walking... TI-I: Yeah, you know, they didn't allow carneras inside or you had to have a special permission to take pictures out- side. That was why the people from Gerrnany was following us. But anyway, I was the only one taking pictures of Sun Ra ‘cause nobody knew who he was. PI-I: So that was taken outside. VVhere was that photo taken? TH: I got to see it. It was probably was taken outside the big pyrarnid (Cheops/ Khufu) because that's where we started to filrn, at the big pyrarnid. PI-I: VVhat's happened to those filrns? Q TI-I: I don't know what happened to the 'filrn. I took the filrn and I edited the filrn in Sweden. I brought the filrn back with two soundtracks and Sun Ra took 68 it and I haven't seen it since. But he never got it finished. So he just kept the soundtrack and I had the soundrack and the filrn seperate, in seperate cans. So I don't know what happened to it. But Sun Ra saw it because we had to go to a special studio to see it ‘cause the filrn was, you know, the edit filrn and then they had two soundtracks which means they had to go on a board and then be put in synch- So we did that sorneplace near Columbus Circle. VVe went to some filrn studio there. And they charged a lot- You know, like, they was charging us 1ike.-.I don't know, fifty dollars an hour or son:1e- thing like that. In Stockholrn you rent a filrn roorn 1ike...two dollars an hour or something like that unintelligible editing board or viewing roorn. And it was so cheap over there and it cornes here and I was shocked at the price‘ that you have to pay if you have to edit a film or if you just have to show it, you know, unintelligible professional studios. It was really expensive but he had sornebody to pay for that. I don't remember who it was that paid for it. But it was sornething to do with T-S. l\/Iirns set it up. And after that I don't: know what happened to the filrn- I saw...VVel1, the one that I did I did it, I got it done in black and white. The edited (version). And I edited the copies in black and white so, but Richard (VVi1kinson) had the originals. We got the copies of the original rnovie before I left and I had the tapes, I had the sound tapes. And I don't know what I did with those sound tapes. VVhat I rnust 69 still have..-I don't remember if I gave them back to Sun Ra. I don't think I did. I think I got those sound tapes someplace. The sound for the film. And so that's what happened- And I taking photographs ‘cause we were re- hearsing for the film so when they de- cide-—when they would rehearse how they going to walk into (toward) the Sphinx and stuff like that- VVell, they had to do it first- And I had a guy fI'OI‘I1 Africa there (and he) was doing the sound, ‘ helping rne do the sound- And he would have to do a soundcheck. PI-I: That wasn't Tarn Fiofori was it? TI—I: Yeah, he would have to do the soundcheck and then we'd have to listen to tape back or find out where we have to place the tapes (meant to say micro- phone)- But if you saw the filrn you will never see a rnicrophone. And we had good sound. But, you know, at that tirne Tarn and Sun Ra wasn't getting along together ‘cause Tain hadn't got any money for quite a while and then we was doing, we was doing our own docu-— rnentary filrn which Sun Ra didn't really want to cooperate with us, you know. He wanted everything he did-(that) we filrned he wanted the filrn unintelligible in Egypt. VVe had some stuff, the only stuff that we had that we owned was sunrise when it was coining up over the pyraxnids or sornething like that or the sunset. VVhen we fortunate enough to see the sunset with the Sun going down ‘K’ behind the pyramid. And of course we had to be at a different location to do 70 that. But in the rnornings we was in the right location but when the Sun carne up it carne up right behind the pyramids. That's what happened in Egypt- VVe was there for quite a while. And then I did a lot of taping there. All the perforrnance. I taped all of the perforrnance. And we did a lot of per- forrnance- VVe did the Arnerican College. They had an Arnerican College there. VVe perforrned there, we perforrned at the Balloon Theater. We performed at tele- vision. That's the only place I didn't tape. PI-I: At the TV studio. TI-I: VS/as at television. It was a conflict there with placing Iny Inicrophones, you know. So it was a conflict so we decided we wouldn't record there ‘cause they had prornised to give Sun Ra a copy‘ of the sound tape. I think he might have even-no he didn't get..- He probably got a copy of the sound tape- I'm not sure. He was supposed to and but he never got a copy of the video- And then, plus we played at the German Ernbassy quite a bit. And then we played at night clubs a _few tixnes- So during the time we was there we worked a lot. PI—I: And you played at I-Iartrnut Geer—— ken's house? TI-I: Yeah, we played at his house also. PI-I: VVhat was I-Iartrnut Geerken like? TI-I: I-Ie seerned to be a very nice rnan. 71 I-Ie seerned to be very fond of the band and he's the one who got us the work at the German Ernbassy. And they got along together but Sun Ra didn't like that they was following us when we went to the pyrarnids because we knew the ministry of culture. The rninister, we knew him and so we was able to get past unintelligible and take photographs and everything. PI-I: You're referring to the Egyptian Ininister? TH: Yeah, and they (the Gerrnans) couldn't do that so they was way out (and) we would see thexn but they was out on the perimeter and I think they was using telephoto lenses or something. They probably have some pictures. But anyway, they met with us quite often and sat down and take us to dinner and stuff. But tell you the truth, I didn't like going out to dinner because in the hotel we lived, it was called the 1\/Iena House, the ,1\/Iena House where we stayed was right on the road that you walk up to the pyrarnid. Old, old build- ing but it was so beautiful and they had restaurant there. I'm telling you it's the best salad, best tasting tornatoes, lettuce and tornato I have ever tasted in my life- I rnean, they had the steaks was good and chicken was fair but the steaks was great and the salad was great- 1\/Iost the time, instead of getting Ineat, I would just get a salad and it was really nice- You know, it's the only place—Did we have beer? I think we drank beer. I think that's the only thing they allowed, 72 they sold was beer. I don't rernernber, I think it was beer that we had with the dinner. But it was so nice and then I went back to Egypt by rnyself when I went to Nigeria. I went back and they had built another hotel on...they had built another hotel so I couldn't stay at the l\/Iena House- I had to stay—-it was still at the sarne location and the l\/Iena House was still there but I had to stay in a new building and it had Warm and cold water showers. It was nice. But only stayed one night and so I didn't get a chance to go to the restaurant. It ‘was nice, I stayed there one day and I saw the rninister of culture. I Inade a visit. He was also a musician. I used his (Sa1ah Ragab) drurns. I didn't have--.I left my drurns in...'cause We didn't have the money to pay for equipment so I left my drurns in Amsterdam ‘cause we left from Amsterdam I think. VVe went frorn Copenhagen, then We went to Ani- sterdarn (and) we put everything in sto- rage and then frorn Arnsterdarn we went to Egypt- Then so when I got there I didn't have nothing but rny cyxnbals and so they had to-.-Lex (Hurnphries) the saIne_ thing. No, I think they took Lex's druxns. They didn't take my drurns be- cause first they thought that I would just play saxophone and but I have enough to do to be doing- Editing tapes and stuff like that. But when we got there it seerned like Lex wasn't strong enough so I had to get drurns and that's where we got the drurns- I think the only decent set was owned by the rninistry of cul-— ture. And he lent me his drurn set throughout the whole stay that I was 73 there. And they weren't the greatest, you know, but at least I was able to play thexn. And that was it as far as Egypt was concerned- There's a lot of other things that probably Richard (VVilkinson) can tell you more about those places when we played in this nightclub. The reaction was phenornenal- You wouldn't believe the reaction when the people (because) they had never heard this type» of rnusic before. And when John (Gilrnore) and thern would start playing those high notes which sometimes hurt rny ears- This wornan started screarning and blah, blah, blah. She screarned and she had to be led out of the place. And it corne to the point when it come payday, no rnoney. Rich- ard and June (Tyson) went back, I think June was with Richard. They went back to get the rnoney and they had these guys in the office of this nightclub with guns and they told hirn not to come back no more. Now, Richard got out of there (and) we never got our rnoney. But anyway, I didn't have a tripod-.. I. went to Egypt without a tripod but I had professional 16rnrn equiprnent un- intelligible and a Nagra tape recorder and I had everything. But with the arnount of people at the pyramid, you can't stand without sornebody hitting you. So the first day shooting when they was walking (and) the band was dancing, clirnbing the pyrarnid on the outside and dancing, it (the catnera work) was kind of shaky. So I had to edit and it come nice after I edit. And the second time so I talked to the rninistry of culture and so he took rne out to their filrn studio 74 and they lend me, well, they gave me an old tripod. It served a purpose. And so that we was able to filrn _the rest of the scenes where they was walking down from the pyranriid with the Sun in the background and then the dancing by the pool and then at the Sphinx when they walked in and danced in the Sphinx so I was able to have a pretty good tripod so I really got sorne good results there. VVhen it was tirne to leave I went back to the studio to return the tripod and they told me, "No, you can have it and, incidentally, you can have a job here if you want to stay." So they offered Ine a job in the so called I-Iollywood...you know, their filrn studios but Sun Ra said, "No, no. Everybody I bring here I'rn taking back with Ine." PI-I: I-Iow'd you feel about that? TI-I: VVell, he probably was right because if I would have took a job there they was going to pay rne well but where would I live and the food is different and probably took all my money just to support myself. But it would have been sornething else so I would have learned a lot. PI-I: I wanted to ask you about your experiments with reverb (echo) in re- cording Sun Ra in the early sixties. TI-I: That was.-.You know, I had two inputs. One rnicrophone and one line input but they both was independent of each other. And the line input where, if you put it on output, you could put I 75 earphones and speakers and you could hear what was coming in. But it only _had one microphone input so what I did wasAI took the earphones, the outputs from the earphones and I put it into the input for the line input. I had made up a cable with two different plugs and one carne out of the playback so that you could hear and the other end went into line input. Now, with the Arnpex you could hear what you were recording directly as they play or you could from the input head- They had three heads on that. They had a playback head. You could put it on playback and you got a delay because you was hearing what was already recorded. And so if I fed that output into input it was like a echo and the louder you...when you increased the volume the tempo also changed. And so I really didn't think that Sun Ra was going to like it. So I fixed it up one day and I tried it and I fed it...Because I was buying the tapes and it was my tape recorder and it was my place they was rehearsing and I never knew that Sun Ra was going to take those tapes and make records. I thought it was just for, you know, just for our own purposes. To irnprove the sound, you know. And so I was experirnenting because I. thought that that's what it was about. To be continued in the next issue- sun RA uasuncu Pususﬁsp av omil mass « no. sax 786. MILLBRAE. ca 94030 © 1993 OMNI miss. EDITED or warm HINDS. smcu can so. OUTSIDE us. 57. 76 Now, IN CHICAGO, SOMETHING HAPPENED To ME WHERE A voI<E <AME ouT oI= HEAVEN AND sAID, “FIND YOUR ENEMIEs AND DESTROY THEM." AND I SAID THEN. “WHO ARE MY ENEMIES? I'M NoT DOING ANYTHING TO MAKE ENEMIES." THERE YOU ARE. so I'VE HAD THEsE STRANGE EXPERIENCES oI= ANOTHER BEING. ANOTHER BEING WHO'S BEEN MY <oMI>ANIoN AND I>BoTE<TED ME AND TAuc. HT ME TH EsE THINGS. A VERY DANGEROUS FRIEND To THOSE VVHO AGAINST ME. NOW. THAT MAKES ME I=EEI. sAD ’<AUSE I'M FOR EVERYBODY. BUT THIS FORCE DOES TO EQUIVOCATE. NO, IT DOES NOT. YOU EITHER ARE OR 4 YOU AREN'T. AND WHATEVER YOUR ARE," THAT'S THE WAY '\ THEY’L|. BE IUDGED. suN RA » DECEMBER 11, 1989 wH EN I I=IRST wENT TO NEw voRI< THE BUILDING I wAS STAYING IN c.oT SET oN FIRE EVERY NIcHT.% AND wHEN IASI<ED -IT wASA : THIRTEEN STORY BUILDING wHEN I ASRED THE owNER or THE BUILDING wHvTHoSE: THINGS wERE HAI>I>ENINa SAID, “YOUR ENEMIES.” I SAID, ; “BUT I JUST GOT To NEw YORK. I HAVEN'T DoNE ANTTHINETOI MAKE ENEMIES. ARE MY ENEMIES wHITE oR BLA<I<.>"HE SAID. wHoLE WORLD.” Now, I RUSHJEDI“ IT BA<I< INTo THE BAcI< OF MIND. HE SAID, “THE wHoI.E§ WORLD AND THEY TRvINc RUN vou oUT or NEw ToRI< '<AUSE vou <AN Do THINGS BUT THIS IS MY BUILDING AND vouf STAY HERE AS LONG AS YOU wANT To. DON'T LEAVE." THAT HAPPENE To ME IN NEw YORK CITY,
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-32
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 33 (April, 2001)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2001-04-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: 3 3 E U S S I APR. 2001 AND I TURNED AROUND TO LOOK DOWN ARMET STREET AND I JUST SAW AN OBIECT THAT WAS ABOVE ARMET STREET THAT LIT DIRECTLY BELOW IT. I STILL NEVER COULD DISCERN WHAT THE SHAPE OF IT WAS BECAUSE THE BRIGHTNESS OF IT WAS STRANGE. IT HURT MY EYES BUT IT WAS LIKE LOOKING AT SOMEBODY WELDING. P. HINDS: SO IT WAS A ULTRA WHITE LIGHT? YEAH, I MEAN REALLY, REALLY, REALLY HARSH, HARSH. HARSH AND I STILL HEARD ITS SOUND SO I RAN UNTIL I GOT TO BAYTON STREET WHICH WAS LIKE A BLOCK AND A HALF AWAY. WH EN I GOT TO BAYTON STREET THE LIGHTS CAME ON BETWEEN BAYTON AND MORTON WHICH WAS ONE BLOCK BEFORE I TURNED THE CORNER ON TO MORTON STREET. AND THE LIGHTS WENT ON AND WHEN I TURNED AROUND TO LOOK I DIDN'T SEE THE OBIECT AND I DIDN'T FEEL THAT STRANGE . . . FEELING IN ME. AND SO I WENT ON IN THE HOUSE THINKING MAYBE I'M TIRED, I'M HALLUCINATING (LAUGHS). ANYTHING BUT THAT. BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GIVE THAT KIND OF INFORMATION TO PEO- PLE WHO ARE IUST ...
Show more3 3 E U S S I APR. 2001 AND I TURNED AROUND TO LOOK DOWN ARMET STREET AND I JUST SAW AN OBIECT THAT WAS ABOVE ARMET STREET THAT LIT DIRECTLY BELOW IT. I STILL NEVER COULD DISCERN WHAT THE SHAPE OF IT WAS BECAUSE THE BRIGHTNESS OF IT WAS STRANGE. IT HURT MY EYES BUT IT WAS LIKE LOOKING AT SOMEBODY WELDING. P. HINDS: SO IT WAS A ULTRA WHITE LIGHT? YEAH, I MEAN REALLY, REALLY, REALLY HARSH, HARSH. HARSH AND I STILL HEARD ITS SOUND SO I RAN UNTIL I GOT TO BAYTON STREET WHICH WAS LIKE A BLOCK AND A HALF AWAY. WH EN I GOT TO BAYTON STREET THE LIGHTS CAME ON BETWEEN BAYTON AND MORTON WHICH WAS ONE BLOCK BEFORE I TURNED THE CORNER ON TO MORTON STREET. AND THE LIGHTS WENT ON AND WHEN I TURNED AROUND TO LOOK I DIDN'T SEE THE OBIECT AND I DIDN'T FEEL THAT STRANGE . . . FEELING IN ME. AND SO I WENT ON IN THE HOUSE THINKING MAYBE I'M TIRED, I'M HALLUCINATING (LAUGHS). ANYTHING BUT THAT. BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GIVE THAT KIND OF INFORMATION TO PEO- PLE WHO ARE IUST GOING TO LOOK AT YOU AND SAY. “YEAH IACK. ALRIGHT. GO LAY DOWN." (LAUGHS) IAMES IACKSON ‘ FEBRUARY 3. 1993 ‘ISSUE 33 APR. 2001 SUN RA REsEAR<H TOMMY HUNTER . . . . . . . . .. 1 JAMES JACKSON . . . . . . . . . . . so TOMMY HUNTER . . . . . . . .. 72 SUN RA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. 92 MER<ER ELLINGTON . . . . . . . 93 suNRA...- . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..94 SUN RA REsEAR<H |ssuE 33 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER Hmos © 1998 SINGLE cow: $3.00 OUTSIDE us: $1o.oo TOMMY CONVERSATION VVITI-I PETER HINDS APRIL 13, 1998 CC) NNNNNNNN R()% S U N R A R E S E A R C H I S S U E 32 _ Tornrny Hunter: And so I was experi- rnenting because I thought that that's, what it was all about, you know. Ex- perirnenting, basically experirnenting with the music so I'm experirnenting with different taping situations 'cause I only had three rnicrophones. There was one Inic and _I had to set John (Gil.-— Inore), Pat (Patrick) and l\/Iarshall (Allen) in a circle so that they could use one rnicrophone. The other rnicrophone went to the bass and the other rnicrophone went to _Sun Ra.....Now, when they brought the singer in I was shit out of luck 'cause I didn't have a rnicrophone for the. singer. So what I did was to set Ronnie Boykins next to Sun Ra, put the rnicrophone under the piano and have hirn point his bass under the piano and that way I could get Sun Ra and Ronnie Boykins-. And then the singer could use his rnicrophone- (Peter Hinds: VVho was the singer? TI-I: They had a coup1e.of singers. They had a woman (Theda Barbara)and the , singer is still the singer with the band today. He came in and he was doing like Billy Eckstine's type of singing but Sun Ra didn't like that. He didn't want that so he told him, he said... I PI-I: Art Jenkins. TI-I: Yeah, Art Jenkins- He said, "Listen, try sornething else." So there was, we had all kinds of little gadgets. l\/Iarshall had a cow horn or sornething. You know, a real horn from a cow and so he, Art Jenkins started singing into that and that's how we recorded, started recording Art Jenkins doing that and that's where he got his style from. And then we had a wornan (Theda Barbara), a real big fat wornan- I guess she was an opera singer or sornething- She carne in and she sang and what we did, Sun Ra had her do an acappella and I was, by that tirne he had Clifford Jarvis (and he) was also coming and joining the band so I could do more - recording, better recordings and play the gong. So on this day Clifford Jarvis was playing drums and Sun Ra liked the re-— verb (echo). He couldn't wait to hear it after recording session and so what happens was I was playing gong and so he had rne to play the gong behind this woman singing (Circe). And it was quite a shock unintelligible- And I don't know. He never put those tapes out- I don'.t know where he didn't put the tapes. He put one tape out with the singing but it was before we found this new thing to record her with the gong and I don't know what happened. He took the tape and I don't know what happened to the tape. But I never heard that tape played back again and I never heard—VVel1, I haven't heard all the records that Sun Ra put out either and, but I haven't heard that tape that they did with that wornan. The last one that we did. I never heard that tape- I heard the first one when we first started recording- They put that out and she was singing like Yrna Suniac. Then--.of course we had..- at tirnes we would bring in diffe- rent Inusicians- Like he had what's his narne? corne in frorn unintelligible and the trurnpet player- Then he had Billy.-- --«va-—««rs..:u.' « A __, .____ k__~ -_‘ ‘ I 1 _ PI-I: VValter I\/Iiller was there. TI-I: Yeah, VValter l\/Iiller but before VVa1ter l\/Iiller he had Billy.-.Billy some- thing frorn Chicago. PI-I: Trurnpet player? TH: Yeah, and-..it was rnainly just, you know, he'd have people come in and he have a couple good drummers come in but they never lasted more than one day ‘cause they didn't know what to do and they wound up on some of the tapes. ‘Cause we taped everything and they wound up—Sornething else was on the tape that was more irnportant than the drummer so some of those tapes he'd release with the other drurnrner on it. But the drurnrners didn't last. Only Clifford Jarvis lasted. VVhen I left I guess that was the end of recording at i the Choreographer’s VVorkshop and then when I left Clifford Jarvis joined the band and I want to tell you sornething. VVhen I carne back and heard that band, when I carne back for Christrnas they was playing at the Village Gate and I heard that band. It was fantastic. It was just like a sound wave. I rnean, he had the volurne turned up on the drums and the bass and he had the l\/Ioog...Did he have the l\/Ioog? PI-I: Too early. TI-I: No, he didn't have the l\/Ioog then. But he had, I'rn telling you the sound was like just a wall of sound plus they had a good acoustical system there and they had good sound and it was fan—— tastic. And I got up and it was like playing with a whole new band- Really was like playing with a whole new band and I didn't change my style any but I sounded different, you know. I sounded a lot different- And then the next tirne I saw the band Clifford was gone and he had Lex I-Iurnphries- And Lex, the problem with Lex, -Lex was not a pro—- blern but a problern with Sun Ra. That Lex would never change- They go to rehearsal (and) Lex's rnernory was like a elephant- .But everytirne Sun Ra to play, when they get on the gig that's the way—-he didn't change- If Sun Ra changed the rnusic Lex didn't change. Lex played what he had been told to play in rehearsal when they rehearsed those tunes- That's why what happened when they carne to Stockholrn- That‘was the first tirne I played Space Is the Place- And it was in 5/4 tirne and I didn't know that- But I soon figured it out because I was working with dancers and we was playing in all kinds of tirne signatures. So I heard it like after about four bars or sornething I heard it and it was in five- But Lex was playing five but it didn't seern like it fit with the band- You know, he was probably playing what Sun Ra wanted hirn to play and didn't change. But he was a good drurn— rner- Tirne wise, rnan, the ternpo didn't budge and he was there- But he wasn't a loud drurnrner- So what happened was when I joined the band again, Sun Ra sat rne next to hirn and it lasted for rnaybe two years or sorneth.ing like that then Sun Ra got the idea (that) you play too 4 ”i much like me, you know What I'm going to dovand We're playing like one person and I don't want that. I want you to play different. So he moved me to the out- skirts of the band so I couldn't get on his vibes. ‘Cause I knew him so well that he couldn't lose rne ‘cause I knew exactly how he played- I been playing with hirn at Caluxnet City and all those other things. You know, once you Work with a person a long tirne it's intuition- You do exactly,- whatever they do different you know ex- actly what they doing rythrnic Wise- And he wanted rne to be playing, to play sornething different from what he was playing- And John (Gilrnore) was having a fit because John liked rne over all the other drurnrners when it corne to play- ing real fast. I had no idea how fast I could play. I never thought I was playing fast but when I listened to some of those records, I'In playing fast- But to me, up to that tirne I wasn't playing fast and I was trying to. I used to corne home and set up rny drurns and play Bird Gets the i VVorrn. That was the one, I guess the g fastest record I heard that Bird was play- ing on. I used to set up and practice—set. f rny druxns up, put the record on to play" Bird Gets the VVorrn. And the hardest part about playing fast is to play cyrnbal 1 beats on the closed hi——hat. That's how I was practicing so I could get rny rnuscles in rny hand.-.And it seerned like to Ine I never reached it but when I played with the band and got away frorn the record I could play faster than that. So _that's how I developed- PI-I: I guess you preceded Sun‘ Ra to New York . TI-I: Oh yeah, Sun Rasent rne back to New York after that incident. PI-I: I don't know about the incident. TI-I: VVe11, on rny twenty first birthday... Now, at this tirne everybody knew rne at the DeLisa, right? And so on my twenty first birthday we corne into the breakfast show, they gave rne a cake and they gave rne a bottle of charnpaigne. And’ they gave rne a good seat right in front of the band stand. Table all by rriyself. Now, I"rn drinking -charnpaigne and ‘I never drank before in my life- So I'm thinking that I'rn drinking strongiginger ale- And after I drink the first thing (glass), you know, then the alcohol taste went away- So any- way during and after I drinking a couple of glasses of charnpaigne this beautiful blonde shows up at the table. Now, rm feeling no pain and she's very ternptive and she's very affectionate and so we started hugging and kissing at the table and stuff like that. And so the 1\/IC started having fun with rne and stopping the show and say, "Listen young man. The show is not down at your table, the show is on the bandstand. You know, everybody would laugh- He was a corne- dian, you know, he rnade everybody laugh. Now, what happened was when it was all over and I didn't know I was I drunk. I tried to get up but I couldn't get up. I couldn't rnove. ‘Cause I didn't eat breakfast. Usually you eat breakfast, you know, when you go to the DeLisa.‘ The first thing you do is eat breakfast‘; before the band stops. But they was keeping rne outside and everybody was talking to rne outside because they wan- ted to hide the fact that they was having this birthday party for rne. So I didn't have no breakfast and I had been playing all night at Caluxnet City- So that little bit of wine went to rny head very fast- And so I got drunk and I didn't know I was drunk. The first tirne I've been drunk in rny life but I didn't know I was drunk ‘cause I didn't know what being drunk was. So anyway, they got rne out. They took rne outside and they rnade rne stick rny finger down rny rnouth and brought everything up and the fresh air revived rne. So then within three or four rninutes I was walking and so I went home with the girl and I didn't show up for the jarn session. You know, like when you leave the DeLisa they had a jarn session at three different locations and I 'didn't show up for any of the jarn sess- ions. So that night I found out from the girl that she worked at Caluztnet City. So, you know, we had ten rninutes off every ‘hour so I go to this club where she's working. Now, this guy that owns the club, his narne was Frenchy and he liked rne. I used to corne in and (during) rny ten rninutes and he would sit down and he would have these, like, two sticks and we would play solos together, you know, while the band is playing we would be playing on the tables and he liked to challenge druxnrners. He wasn't a drum- rner but he could handle_those chopsticks that he had. 'And we'd becorne very good friends. 1\/Ieantirne this girl was working at that club but I had never seen her before that night so when I go there I'rn standing backstage and I'rn waiting for her to corne on and Frenchy shows up- And he says, "I want you_to get out of my face, I want you to get out of my club and I'rn going to‘ tell you'sornething. If I .didn't like you, you would be dead." So I started crying because he was seri- ous and I thought that this rnan was rny’ friend. Then he says, ''I am your friend- That's why I'rn telling you this- VV/e do‘ not allow rnusicians and our girls to patronize each other. VVe do not allow you to be socially. You corne here, you play for thern and that's the end of it. Socially, you're not to be rnixed." And Sun Ra heard this- The next day, rnan—- That night Sun Ra said, "Take your drurns horne with you." And I always did what Sun "Ra said’- I packed rny-. drurns and the owner. of the club where we was working, and I'rn the band lead- er, right? So he says, "VVhat are you. doing with your drurns?" (TI-I rep1ies),.,_.-: "Sun Ra say he got a record date tomor- row." He says, "Oh, OK- Lots of.g1uck-'-'* You know, so I take my drums and‘ I , put it in Fox's station wagon and wejget horne (and) Sun Ra says’, "You're going to New York tornorrow." I‘ said, "Sun Ra, I don't have enough rnoney." Sun Ra says, "I'11 get you the ticket." The ticket to New York at that itixne was $48. And he says, "I'1l take it out of your salary-" And so that's what he did. He put me on the plane and sent me back to New York- Now, in the rneantirne when I get back to New York I get a telegrarn‘:-froni Chi—_ cago, from a drurnrner that was supposed to go with this band and he decided- he 8 wasn't going to go so he sends me a telegram and said they going to be in New York and they need a drurnnier to go to the south. So I went to see this man and come to find out that it was the Sweethearts of Rhythrn, all girl band. So OK, I said it will be a experience so I went on tour with thern- We went all the way to Key VVest, Florida. PI-I: What year was this? TI-I: This must have been '49 I guess. '48 or '49. PH: OK, you went to Florida. TI-I: Yeah and we did the whole thing in the south. Now, in the band they had two white girls playing. They was pretty good. One (was a) saxophone player, one ’ was. the trumpet player I think. And so we had another girl that played saxophone and she was Ivluslirn. So we go into Geor- gia and we stop at the gas station to fill» up and the white girls (and) everybody wants to go to the toilet- So now the white girls go in the white section and so the black girl follows her. That place got into a frenzy and they said, "No, you niggers can't go into that place, into that toi1et." And this girl (said), "I'rn not nig- ger, I'In l\/Iusliin." And this stuff went on so they called the police- The police come in and they was getting ready to beat me and Duke's head-, and Duke flashed a sign ‘cause Duke was a Ix/Iason and this serg- eant that carne up was a l\/Iason so they didn't beat us. But he told Duke, "Listen, we can't have no incidents like this- And so you got to get out of town now." And Duke said, "VVe playing here to— night." He (police officer) said, "No you're not- VVe don't want to see you no more in this city. Get out of town. 3:‘ And as soon as they give you gas," ‘cause they stopped giving us gas after that incident- So the cops said, "Fill this car up." They finished filling it up with gas and the police car escorted us to the city line- After we left the police we went about maybe ten rniles and we pulled off and we waited untill it got dark- And we was walking in the bushes and walking on sornebody's farrn. All these people but nobody said anything to us and we waited untill it got dark and we turned around and we went back into the black section and somehow we hid the car- VVe had two cars. We hid the cars and we played and so after the job when we got to the _hotel Duke told (her), "Listen, if you're going to do this, you can be a l\/Iuslirn, you can be anything you want to but We in the south and here they rnean business. Now, you can be a dead 1\/Iuslirn but we don't want you putting this band in jeopardy again- Especially (since) we got two white girls in the band and they don't like that in the first place." He said, "So either it's going to go down like it's been going down or We going to put you on a bus to New York tonight." So she said, "OK, OK, OK-" Because she just come with the band and I guess she wanted to stay with the band. 1\/Iight have been her first gig. So no other incidents and we get to F.1or- ida and we turn around and we on our back and but you know what happened was that when we was in North Carolina 10 _g—:- when we finished the gig I used to ask if there any jarn sessions or is there any good rnusicians I can Ineet? And the guy says, "Yeah, tornorrow when you get up after breakfast I'll take you out to rneet a rnusician." And so the guy comes by and picks me up at the hotel and he takes me out to this farrn and who's sitting on a log practicing? VVas Lou Donaldson. Nobody had ever heard of Lou Donald- son._ That's how I met Lou Donaldson. ! But when we get to Jacksonville, Florida, they had a jarn session at the American I Legion. So the whole band went there. We had a trombone player that was really good. That could play with the best of the trombone players and she was a VVO-- rnan and she played her ass off. And we go to this jarn session and so she and I are the only ones that played out of the band- The rest of the band just sat there and had their Cokes or their beer or whatever they was drinking and so then all these rnusicians come up on the stand and we start jaxnrning. Do you know who they were? PI-I: VVho? TI-I: Cannonball (Adderly). Cannonball and his brother- They was teaching there. No- body knew anything about Cannonball- At least I had never heard of him before. PI-I: And his brother Nat. TI-I: And hixn and Nat played in the jarn session and so we met them (and) they was interested to meet the girl that played trombone and so I guess as a 11 courtesy I played in the session- So they carne over and introduced themselves to rne and they said they was teaching there and blah, blah, blah and they started ask- ing us about New York and Chicago and a lot of other places they had never been. And I was surprised, a year later I hear about this new saxophone player. I don't know if Lou Donaldson came first. I think Lou Donaldson carne first then Cannonball arrived on the set and he was playing in the (Greenwich) Village- I don't remember the name of the club and then I go down to see hirn but I don't know it's Cannon- ball. They saying Cannonball and he wasn't introduced to rne as Cannonball- He was introduced to rne as Julian I think it was. But everybody was talking about this alto saxophone player that was going to give Bird trouble. So I go down to see hirn and it's Cannonball. It's Julian. They had in the paper Cannonball Adderly so I didn't put the two things together and I go down to see hirn and it's Cannonball. Two people I rnet before just by being on the road with that girl band that carne to New York later that I had met. Oh God, rnan- Those are experiences, you know. PI-I: It seerns like through the years you and Sun Ra got along pretty well. It seerns for the rnost part. TI-I: Yeah, except, well you know, what happened was that I went back to Chicago. I think I went back to Chicago about after ' two years I went back to Chicago. And I stayed for another two years in Chicago. But Sun Ra still didn't have his band. He still didn't have a band. So that time I 12 _got a job with Sarah l\/IcLawler and Richard Otto. I think he plays violin better than any jazz violinist I ever heard. And it was a good group- VVe had a nice group. You might be able to find-we only did two albums unintelli- gible. One was called We Bring You Love and then the other one was We Bring You Jazz- But what happened was we did (a recording) with Vee—Jay re- cords and as soon after we did that re- cord date—only one tune rnade it and it was a ballad. But the government carne in and locked up the place and took all the masters (tape) because of taxes. So that was the end of ...we never recorded for anybody else- But I recorded them. I got the tapes now, you know. So--.we thinking about how we can put them out. ‘Cause they're good tapes, you know. And nobody—the wor1d---as far as the people are concerned never really heard Richard Otto play. It's just that we had a following all over the country 'cause we worked every week. For the thir- teen years we worked every week and, you know, not every week- Sometimes we'd be off for a Inonth or sornething like that and then Sun Ra would coxne around the studio and we would record- I was still working with Sun Ra, you know, like (during) weeks off or sorne- thing like that. I would work with Sun Ra and work with the band and record the band untill we went to Europe in '64- I went to Europe with Richard Otto and Sarah IvIcLaw1er. Now, we had made a audition before we left. We made a audition for a show, a farnous show. I can't remember- I'll remember probably 13 before I finish talking- We got to Stock-— holrn (and) we supposed to be there for six weeks- VVe did the whole country. VVe went there in l\/Iay and we stayed there untill October- Now, in the states I was rnaking like $150 a week, you know. And when we got there I was supposed to be getting—the contract was I was supposed to get $80 a night, everytirne we played and free roorn and board, everything. VVell, they gave rne the free roorn and free food and all of that stuff but I wasn't getting paid every night. So then two weeks go by and they pay rne $150- l\/Iy calculation for two weeks was a Whole lot more than that- VVell, they say, "VVe1l Bugs, they want to keep us over here untill August but they can't pay, they can't pay that price so we going to pay you what we was paying you in the states, $150. I said, "Sarah, I didn't really need to corne over here for the sarne price I work in the states. I probably could rnake Inore rnoney if I stayed in the states working with other bands. I didn't need to come over here for this, you know" She says, "This job here is going to put us in a higher paying position so when you get back to New York you're going to see an increase in your pay" or sornething like that. VVel1, I didn't believe her no more because when we left we had this contract and I was supposed to get $80 a night and I'rn not getting it- 1\/Ieantirne they've taken out half of the rnoney. They only paying you half of what you’ get- That's why I got $150 instead of getting $300- They giving you half of the rnoney and the other half of the 14 money you supposed to get it when you ; get back to the states. Well, they was ‘ doing that during that period ‘cause a everybody was spending up their money so and go to Europe and then come back with nothing, you know. And it probably would have happened to me anyway. Well anyway, after the job was over I was so pissed off I didn't want to corne back right away. Oh I know, the Johhny Car- son Show (see bottorn of page 13). So now we had made an audition and we supposed to go back there and play and" the reason they left Europe at that time was 'cause we supposed to go back and play for the Johxiny Carson Show. VVell, I decided I‘rn going to stay and take a two weeks vacation. So they fought me on that. They had this director, tour director come in, took my passport and they held my Inoney, they took my ticket. VVell, I never had the ticket. They had the ticket, you know, return ticket. I had never seen it. So but I knew I had a re- turn ticket. They took rny ticket and say, "VVell, if you stay in Stockholrn you going to stay but you going to have to come back to the states to get your rnoney." And they-they had this Swedish tour director and (he) said, "And furtherrnore, you're not going to be ever be able to play while__.you're in Stockholm. You can't play- If you're going to take a vacation, that's up. to you but you won't be able to play." But ‘nieantirne they took my passport. So what happens: I call the American Ernbassy 'cause they going to force me to get on the plane and go back to the states. So I call the Arnerican Ern- bassy and first they was ‘a little hesitant 15 about getting in it until- I told them they took my passport. VVhen I told them that they took my passport, oh they got excited. they ‘was over there in twel.ve Ininutes they had this tour director, they had everybody right on the floor. They said that, "Do 'you know that's a prison thing? You can never take a passport from an American. That he has a right for his passport. Nobody can take that away from him except for a foreign country can take it for exarnination. That's all that's perrnitted. But. they have to re- turn thea passport to him or they have to return‘ hizrn and the passport to the Anaer- ican Embassy if he had done soxnething." So they scolded them and told thern we can really fine 'you for this- So then the guy looked at the? contract. Now,‘ what ' the Swedish Government was tvvorriedi about (was) that now I'_ had V_ no ticket to._ go? back to the states. And I had notarnon-A ney. Now, what was I going to do in Sweden? So the American Ernbassiyarriade them give me back my passport. They made them pay the money that they owed me. They gave me all my money which canie to sornething like $3,000 or some- thing like that. They had to give me all rny money there and they ruled that my ticket back, they was saying, "VVell, he's not going back and it's in the contract that he goes back."_. They read the. con- tract. They said, "No, ourinterpretation is that the ticket is included in the pay for the job and he's done the job- Did N. he do the job satisfactorily?" _Yes. "VVell then, give him his ticket. I-Ie's:.earned the ticket." So naow I have my‘ ticket, I have , rny rnoney and for doing all that shit, I 16 said, "'I‘he hell with Johnny Carson. I'm not going back right now." So what I was going to do, I was going to stay in Stockholm for two weeks and then I was going to go to Paris ‘cause I had met, ‘I knew Kenny Clarke and I was going to go to Paris and "stay for a while but I met this man that was corn- ing to the concerts and I met him and come to find out that he was into cinematography and he had been watch- ing rne take photographs and stuff like that. But ’he wasn't interested in me taking photographs or anything like that. He was interested that I'm a young nlan and they have no black actors in Sweden. He wanted to use rne in film. So I rnet hirn, I went to talk with hirn and I did a couple of filrns where I just walk on and stuff like that. No speaking ‘cause I didn't speak Swedish and so'I had no speaking parts but I would walk on or I'd be standing on the corner or something like that. I was doing a little work and it wasn't that he saw rne play- ing drurns ‘cause I started working for the Ballet Academy and I was playing drums for dance classes. They had Her- rnan I-Iouk, unintelligible, VValter Nix and all the big American teachers was teach- ing in Stockholrn so ‘I got the job play-— ing for the jazz class. Good job because being ’a foreigner they could only take out 20% tax. Swedes pay 50 or 60% tax. So it was a pretty good job and I signed the contract with the governzrnent of Sweden so I didn't have to pay. And they gave me a place to stay also- Itwas in the contract. So anyway, it rneans that I didn't get out of Sweden. So I had met 17 this rnan so I had met this man so after I carne home for Christmas and had made those recordings for Sun Ra I went back to Sweden. (Tape break.) It's not really surnrner- It's_like just be- fore spring they send the students to Spain so that you can go on the beach and have your dance classes there so I went to Spain and there was this big rnan and I was playing for classes and every class I played there was this big man sit-— ting beside xne listening to rne and mak- ; ing notes- I didn't know who he was or X what he was doing- So I thought maybe he was Swedish press or something, you know. So anyway, when I get back to Stockholrn a woman calls rne and she says, "There's a film director narned Tor-—ivan C)dolf," so she says, "I-Ie's interested in you doing something for his filrn." So I go and I meet hirn and he says, "Yes, we doing a film called Stockholrn Surnrner" and blah, blah, blah "and we'd like you to be pa.rt- VVe don't know, we haven't written a part but we going to see what we can do and see and it will give us a test to see how you look on the screen." So they put rne in a few scenes- Nothing talking but I was playing drurns in a couple of scenes with the rnain actor- I was at her house and she was dancing and I was playing drurns and her boyfriend corne in and pissed off that I was there and I didn't have nothing to say, you know- But anyway, the guy pissed rne off. He was acting but he really pissed rne off. I mean, I was sup- posed to exit and I was just supposed to exit but when I exited I offered him my I hand and he just ignored it and they said, 18 9' "Oh that was great. But the guy really pissed rne off because he was-..but he, was acting, you know. I unintelligible girlfriend and he didn't like it. And he played his part well ‘cause he made rne...it pissed me off. So I think that was the only scene they kept that I was in the picture. I rnight be in another scene or sornething like that- OK. so they did the movie. They edited it and, they brought it out and I think the rnovie ran fo.r about six days. It was a flop. But before that I had done the rnusic for the filrn- But just C1I'L'lI1.‘1S but I had done music for the film. Guess what he was interested in? Vvhy he was sitting rnaking notes and stuff. So he _ told me, you know, out of w‘hat he could rernernber what I was playing he told me what he—so I did the sound- track. Now, when they get a review, when the review comes in the revi‘ew. was negative to the film but they said the best part of the filna was the rnusic. VVel1, we become very good friends, Tor-—ivan and the star Lena l\/Iadsen. And she had been "in the states for about five years and she was a big rnodel for I-Iarper's and all that stuff. But now she had gone back and she didn't want to rnodel any more and she was taking jazz ballet and she was acting in rnovies and stuff. So I got a chance to know her and we liked each other. Not lovers or any- thing but just liked each other and we were good friends and we'd have dinner and then she eventually started taking classes at the Ballet Acaderny where I was working. VVe11 anyway, through that situation I got a chance to rneet a lot of 19 people. to film school for, I got into the filrn school, I went I guess it was three years. The first year you have to take still photography which I went through that year like a buzz saw because I al- ready had experience. I already had ideas about composition. So, I mean I went through that class with the highest rnarks and then you have to go through that to get into the documentary film school. So then after that year I got into the filrn school- I went through that and halfway through the school one of the best known actors in Sweden wanted to rnake a film so I was acting. I did the sound and I did some film work in the film in the filrn. We did a film called 1\/Iy Name Is Ebon Lundin but I made enough money from that film that I bought my own filrn carnera, bought a Nagra (at that tirne the Nagra was the state of the art portable reel to reel tape recorder). PI-I: So you bought a Nagra. TI-I: I bought an Eclair (?)1\/IPR camera which is a professional carnera and I bought a Nagra and I bought some rnicrophones . PI-I: You're ready to go- TI-I: Yeah, you know, sorne of us from the school, we got a little cornpany to—- gether and so our first job was making that rnovie with Per Oscarsson. VVe did this filrn with him‘ and I rnade enough that I could get a good 26mm camera and get the Nagra and cases and all of that stuff- And after that I finished 20 school and what happened was I couldn't get a job because I didn't want to take out a Swedish citizenship which Ineans I would have had to become a Swedish citizen and get a Swedish passport and becorne Swedish to be able to work on television because when you sign a con- tract with the work for te1evision-..Now all my classrnates eventually went to tele-— vision but when they sign a contract with television you got to go wherever they send you, when they send you- And it might mean a military installation or, you know, sornething that they don't allow foreigners to see. VVell, by me being a foreigner I couldn't do that so I worked in television as a free lance. You know, they would call me to go out and do something, news shorts or sornething like that. But the pay wasn't all that good. I still had to work as a musician to maintain myself because I was no longer working at Ballet Acad- erny 'cause I had Aquit that job and I was trying to work as a filrn rnaker. Anyway, I got invited to go to the main filrn school- I passed all the tests except one and that was...They give you a roll of film, of color film and you put it in your still carnera and you got to do a story line. And they give you a location where you do this story line and what happened was they gave rne the Film I-Iouse (as a location to shoot photos) and you only have a half hour to do it so everything is spontaneous. They want to see how your mind works. l\/Iy rnind was a blank. I couldn't see anything I could put together except I saw a police corn—— ing in a helicoptor. It was landing behind 21 the Filrn House so I took stills of that and then I followed the police untill they went in the door and then five minutes afte_r they wen_t in the door I went in and I tried to follow them but I don't know where they went so now .I've shot eighteen frarnes of rny twenty four frarnes and I have no ending. PI-I: You're stuck. TI-I: I'rn stuck- So I go into the Filrn House and I do like I'rn the policeman. I Inake believe that the carnera is the policernan and what the policernan sees. And he goes to the bar and he gets a beer, you know. So I'rn taking pictures of the bar where he sets down .then I take a picture of the waiter coming up with the glass of beer and I'rn out of film. So I turn the film in- You have to wait two weeks for an interview but" they didn't say anything about my photo- graphs because they don't return them to you ‘cause they give you the film and they give you a note that all the pictures that you take is their property. So I had an interview and the guy told rne that consider rnyself worthy and to even be chosen because only sixteen people out of the whole of Sweden is taken in to this school- And they saying that they don't see anything from my records and frorn the filrns that I had worked on, they don't see that they can teach me anything more than what I have and so they regret that they didn't approve me for a student. But you know what hap- pens is not what you learn. It's the _ prestige frorn corning out of that school. 22 VVe1l anyway, even with that I had rnade this filrn and so in school we had to do a film. The last year (of school ) we .had to do a film. Our Whole tearn, we picked tearns. We had to do a film so those filrns go into filrn festivals. Now, the filrn that I worked with, I just did sound. I didn't do any.-.I ‘Was ruled out. Sorne—- body else got the filzrn carnera work. But I was doing sound ‘cause I was good with sound so I was the first choice for doing the sound. I did the whole sound for the picture- All the filrns Went to the different film festivals. The film that I work on is the only filrn that won a prize. We had the best technical filrn and the filrn Won the prize for the best sound which I did. So then I started getting offers for.-.and this is after I had gone and made that tour with Sun Ra and gone back to Swe- den. and I started getting offers from different countries to work in their film departrnents. I got an offer from Greece, I got an offer from Turkey, I got an offer from Egypt and I got an offer from Nigeria. PI-I: VVhat year is this now? TI-I: This must be about 1970 or 71. PH: '71 you were in Berkeley ( April to July). right? TH: Yeah, it was after Berkeley that I got the job, took the job in Nigeria. So I took the job in Nigeria because I had never been to Africa. PH: Lagos? 23 _ TI-I: Yeah, I went to Lagos but the department I was working I was the director for cinernatography for the River State and that was at Port Hawk- l\/Iaybe twelve hundred miles from Lagos- I take Nigeria ‘cause I never been to 1 Africa and I wanted to see, you know, rnaybe I have some roots there or what- not- So I go to the Arnerican Ernbassy with this contract- So they told me, you 1 know, this contract is not even worth the paper that it's written on. That it's a rnilitary governrnent (and) they can kick you out of the country any tirne they want to or they can kill you and we can't do anything about it ‘cause they can hide it for so rnany years ‘cause there's so rnany places that we can't go and we can't do and we can't I I investigate. So we would advise you not to take this job. So I said, "Oh, the hell with it. I'm going to‘take it-" It was really good paying job. I'rn going to take it anyway. So I took the job and I went to Nigeria- After I did that tour with Sun Ra ,_I went to Nigeria and I worked there for three or four years. I was rnaking good rnoney but I couldn't take it out of the country. Could only take out two thousand dollars a year- So but what's dangerous about there is to have rnoney and, you know, if you have rnoney soInebody's going to find out about it. And they have robbers . there and they kill you- So I was ad-— vised by lawyers there to put the rnoney in the bank- I put the rnoney in the bank. So when I got paid every three rnonths I would put the rnoney in the bank and. just keep out, like, rnaybe five thousand 24 _ dollars to spend on whatever. For food and stuff like that- Although my food was free, I didn't like the food so I would buy my own food. VVhenever we went to Sweden to edit the filrns and stuff like that, I could take out a lot of money but it would be governxnent rno—— ney for pay. You know, like they pay , you so much for every day, they pay you so Inuch for hotel, they pay you 1 so rnuch for this and it turns out to be , like sixteen thousand, seventeen thousand dollars and so We'd go to Sweden twice a year to get the filrn out of the labor- atory and start editing- VVe edit a filrn in Stockholm and usually would take us three or four weeks to edit a film and then go back to Nigeria. VVell, I would send that money home 'cause it didn't cost me that much to live in Stockholrn. I didn't have to stay in a hotel 'cause I had a lot of girlfriends. VVell anyway, rny rnother died. lvly father died first and then my Inother died and I came home and the house was ‘burned down and nobody wanted to take care of all the stuff- Nobody had no rnoney that they wanted put it in a house and then (in the) meantime nobody had paid the taxes on the house. PH: VVhat happened to the house that ‘ burned clown? TH: VVhat happened was my brother 4 tried to collect the insurance but the house was in my narne. So we had problems with the insurance company and this went on (for) years. So I figured, well, by the tirne I get the 25 money from the insurance company- have paid the lawyers more than that. So I said to hell with the insurance and so then I stayed home. I didn't go back to Nigeria and they fired tne- Now, when they fired rne they took all my money out of the bank. So immediately when they did that I. went back to Stockholrn and I put a lien on the negatives. We. had all the negatives in the laboratory in Stockholm because they have no facility to store anything in Nigeria. Plus it's huxnid there and the filrn would disintegrate- So I had all the negatives in the laboratory so I got a lawyer and I put a lien on it. I put a lien on the fi1rn...they can't get the film untill they pay me. So they didn't want to pay me so after so Inany years the film becornes rnine anyway. Under the Swedish law it's already my film because I'm the one who did the filrn and since I didn't get paid I have the artist's’right. In Sweden the artist has the right unless he sells it. So if I'rn doing a filrn for somebody and say, sornebody hires me to do a film, documentary film or something like that and then at the end of the film they have paid all expenses but they decide that they don't want to produce the film and they don't want to pay you the rest of the Inoney that they owe you and so they just drop it. Well, they have a artist right(s) there. The artist can claim all the rnaterial, everything. So everything has to be turned over if they decide not (to pay). VVe1l, the same thing applied since I was living in Sweden. The sarne thing applied for Nigeria. Since they put’ down the prograrn and they took my 26 money and said that since I disbanded‘ the program that they had to. start over again and they didn't want sornebody to come in and try finish the work that I started so they had -to start anew and they was taking my rnoney to finance that- So OK, I went and put a lien on the film and the filrn is still in the» lab-— oratory and the statute of lirnitations has run out so now the film is rnine. It must be about rnaybe fourty hours of filrn- Negatives. Now, the reason I haven't done anything about it was be—— cause I was working for the government and we was going in and we was filrning stuff that Nigerians don't even know about because each place Where you go in, they have their own culture thing and it's private. It's private to that clan or whatever you call it- But because it was Black Arts Festival the governrnent gave us perrnission .and since it's rnilitary governrnent and a rnilitary governrnent has guns, we could go in and film, you know. And they was quite glad, you know, that the governrnent would' supply thenri with whatever they needed and we'd go in and filrn whatever we needed, you know. So I got lots, lots and lots of hours of cultural stuff that rnost Niger- ians never’seen unless they corne from that village- And it's different when you go village to village and go into state by state, everything is different. So now I own that filrn. But I don't want to sell it to a foreign governzrnent- I don't want to sell it. I would like to return it to the people of Nigeria but I'In not going to do it unless they cornpensate me. So but I've been advised:Don't go back to 27 Nigeria. Don't ever take the film back there. If they going to- take the film you be out of Nigeria- (You) Can rnake a deal, let ‘thern come to Stockholm. and take the film. Don't deliver the film because it's a military government and you don't know what they going to do. They can be agitated or whatnot. But it seerns like they don't care about it. They don't care about it at all. So they have never...The laboratory said they "have never corne and ask about the film or anything. So now I got all this filrn sitting in the laboratory in Stockholrn. lvlaybe I have _to go this year and see about it ‘cause they wrote rne a letter and talking about if I'm going to edit the film and use their facilities that they would never charge rne storage but since it's been such a long time they're saying they debating whether to charge me stor- age if I keep the filrn there. So I got to figure out what I'rn going to do with the filrn- Ivlaybe I'll just return it to thern anyway ‘cause it really belongs to the people of Nigeria. I feel that way any- way. It’s a lot of stuff on there that-.. You know what had happened? Before I got that job all filrn stuff was done in England and they was getting ripped off royally ‘cause the guys would come in, they would charge thern for the filrn, they would do negative filrn, charge thern for everything and then they would edit the filxn and just give thern the copy back. the negatives would go to the British l\?Iuseurn".W"I‘he "l3'ri't'i's_l5i" l\/Iuseurn was buying the negatives from the filrnakers that was hired by Nigeria. ‘Cause the Nigerians didn't even 28 know there were negatives that exist. And so these people that they hired to run the film sections was ripping thexn off royally. They didn't know anything about it- All of the stuff for years, their culture, has been done and they think that they have the only record is the film that they got back. They think that's the only record but they don't know that the negatives and everything, uncut negatives and every-— thing belongs to the British 1\/Iuseurn. So I found this out. I found out what they was doing and so they offered me a job to be the film director for Nigeria- And the big people was doing it and so when I was being interviewed I was naive and I dropped a narne 'cause they asked me a question. VVou1d you...how much money would you be..-accept to take this job? And we had been through that already. We had been through everything and I didn't know-..I didn't think they was supposed to ask me that question. But anyway they did and I said, "Yes, we have already discussed that with Dean so and so and so and so-" "Oh rnan," they said. Oh oh, they srnelled the mouse right away and so they cut the interview short and I couldn't get the job because they thought this was...It was- It was on the up and up except they should have gave a report and it was for a university. The job was for the university but I was going to be working for the Nigerian Governrnent. But I was going to be working in the university. I didn't know that they just couldn't do it. That they had to have more people subrnit bids. I didn't know 29 that and apparently they had done away with the bids and they done away with all bidders frorn all countries and we had to corne together even before the interview on how rnuch I wasgoing to get paid, where I was going to stay, where I was going to live and how many years and whatnot. So when I dropped this deans narne, that was it. That was it. And they just stopped the interview and said there is sornething irregular here and it has to be investigated- So the professor said to me, "Listen, let's forget about it and you continue the work you doing and in three years probably going to be a different govern-— Inent and we'll do it again-" But this time my Inother and father died and so I never went back to Nigeria. So it's just as well- But that was the end of my filrning career. I didn't have no . job to filrn anyrnore 'cause I corne back horne and I went to all the TV stations and film and they gave me the run- around and they probably put my resume in the trashcan as soon as I walked out the door- But I was in this catch 22- You got to be in the union to be considered for the job for, like, ABC or whatnot television or any filrn cornpany and you go to union (and) you can't get in the union unless you have a job. It's one of those things. You got to have a job to get in the union. You got to be in the union to get a job. And so it cornes down to who you know. Now, I didn't know anybody- Now, later I knew Newrnan that rnade the Sun Ra...(Space Is The Place)- 30 PI-I: Jiin Newrnan. TI-I: But I never thought about him. I never thought about going to California. I just Wanted to do some TV work here. I wanted to get a job as TV cameraman or something like that. But I never wan- ted no studio job- I wanted to be, like, news. PI-I: Out in the streets. TI-I: But I wasn't even considered so I decided I would go to NYU and I was accepted right away but I don't know what happened. I went on tour with Sun Ra. PI-I: VVhat year is this? TI-I: I don't remember. It was when I carne back from Nigeria and I came home. PH: '75 or sornething like that? TI-I: Probably '79. PH: So you got back together with Sun Ra? TI-I: Yeah. And I started travelling with hirn and stuff like that so I didn't have time to go. I Inean, I said it's just as recording equiprnent ‘cause we recorded 31 everything we done and so it was too rnuch so I had to leave the camera and stuff behind.I took it a couple of times but when we got there, there would be so much commotion that he didn't want to buy the filrn and I decided I'm not going to buy, pay two hundred dollars for a roll of film and never see it, you know. I stopped doing cinernatography for Sun R.a ‘cause I just couldn't afford to do it- I could afford the tapes and stuff like that..-for filrn it's very ex—— pensive and once I got the film in the can he would put it in the laboratory and pay for that but he never would pay for the film and the filrn was ex—— ' You know, four hundred feet is two hundred dollars for a roll of film and that was more than he was paying me. And especially when I was buying, like, three rolls of tape or ‘ four rolls of tape. For each job I had at least four rolls of tape. Of course I could get the rolls that had thirty six hundred feet but that tape was so thin and plus it stretched and the sound (would suffer). The rnost was eighteen hundred feet tape- And eighteen hundred feet is about fourty five rninutes of re- cording tirne. So, you know, playing (and) half of the tirne with the earphones on and recording at the same time. It was quite a job but it was intriguing. It was 1ike...you know a thing where you say can I do it? I know I can do it. I'rn going to do it, you know- And I would do it, you know. But the problem is that the only time I would see the tapes back again was when he was edit.ing___a tape for a record, Then I have to bring 32 the Nagra and edit the tape 'cause the Nagra was the only stereo recorder I had at the tirne- And when I bought it I was in Sweden so the last recordings I made of Sun Ra was all ‘made on the Nagra and I would have to edit it on the Nagra 'cause it was in stereo. Now when I had the Arnpex, that was really a job because Arnpex was a half track so I could record on both sides of the tape- And I never knew that .he was going to put those tapes out for records so I never considered just doing (recording on) one side of the tape so he could edit the tapes. So when we did, when we went to California that time he was doing tapes that I had done, like, in the sixties. That we had done at Choreo- grapher's VVorkshop and I was editing those tapes but I had to rnake copies first. I had to rnake copies of the tapes because I had sound on both tracks ‘cause it was a half track. and it was going different directions. So I would have to record one track on the tape before I could edit it- But he didn't care about the quality- Sun Ra never cared about the quality. V\/hat he cared about was sornething on the tracks that he liked- And he didn't care about the quality- He put it out. So I had to be careful when I recorded. I tried to get the best quality I could get 'cause if it was a tape that he liked he was going to put it out with the quality. And one of these days sornebody going to know that I did the tapes. I had to be very careful. And that's the way it worked. PI-—I: VVhen was the last tirne you recorded 33 Sun Ra? TI-I: The last year I didn't record it- I videotaped it. PI-I: VVas this 1989? TH: VVel1, when did he die? PH: '93. TH: VVel1, two years before he.died I started videotaping instead of recording. I would only record if he insisted. But I would get so I couldn't handle the drums and handle all that taping. It got to be enormous (with the) taping equip- ment with mixers and stuff and so I couldn't handle it and there was nobody to help me. And so I stopped recording and then he started going into studios, you know. He started recording for ~ cornpanies and we'd go into studios. So I was just doing 8rnrn videos. PI-I: How rnany photographs do you think you've taken over the years? TI-I: I did a lot of photographs- Now, what happened with my photograph(s): I had rny stuff in storage ‘cause after my house burned down I didn't have enough room so I put stuff in storage and the last trip we went to Europe for unintelligible and I forgot to pay the bill, storage bill- But I used to pay it every three rnonths. Instead of paying it every rnonth, I was paying it every three months. But they would let me go three months and then I 34 would pay them off. But what happened was that when we went to Europe and we stayed longer than we was supposed to stay that when I got back they had changed-..they had sold the company (and) went under different rnanagernent and so he auctioned my stuff off. But I think I was ripped off because I had noticed when I would go in and get something out of storage, you know, like I had a lot of whiskey- I was sav- ing—like you know, you go and play clubs and stuff on New Years and special occasions people will give you whiskey and I didn't drink so I must have had about ten cases of different kindvof whiskey and I would notice that when I——I'rn supposed to have the only key to that roorn—but I would notice that when I open up a bottle of whiskey or case of whiskey I would see it had been opened and I would open and there would be whiskey rnissing. And then there was fishing rods and stuff. I'd go down to get a special fishing rod to go fishing and I couldn't find the fishing rod and I say well maybe I didn't put in storage. But I noticed that things was missing so they knew what I had there. They knew what I had in storage. So when I went to Sweden and carne back all my stuff they said they auctioned all my stuff off and I lost a lot of stuff. I lost discharge papers from the service and I lost a lot of stuff. Just lucky I was able to get a copy of my birth certificate back. But I had lost all legal papers and stuff like that. And I lost a lot of tapes. VVe did a tour of Italy and so Sun Ra didn't 35 want to- Usually he'd collect the tapes after each concert but in Italy he didn't do it because he didn't have that much bags and so I guess he thought it was better if I lugged the tapes around. So I kept the tapes and he bought rne a special bag to put the tapes in. And I brought the tapes back horne and at that tirne he would corne over to my house and listen to tapes- You know, when I had this little apartrnent- PH: In New York? TI-I: Yeah, and he would corne up and he would listen to tapes and we would edit tapes and do photographs and stuff like that. But it corne to a point that I sold the house and I had to put every- thing in storage and I put what I couldn't take was tapes that I had cases- I had cases and cases of those vinyls- You know, that he put out with thern labels and stuff. PI-I: The (Saturn) alburns. TI-I: VVell, he would bring it to my house to storage. And, you know, like then they need to go to someplace (they) would corne to my house and get a case of what's the narne? Corne to rny house and draw pictures on the covers and stuff like that. So I had these cases and cases of vinyls and I had the original tapes, edit tapes for that they used to rnake the rnothers. VVe1l, then after he rnake the rnothers he would leave thern over at my house ‘cause he‘ got to a point where he trusted me. So I hadi a 36 lot of Sun Ra stuff and I lost all that stuff in storage. VVhen I came back from Sweden I couldn't find it- So IA talked to some people there and they said what they did with the tapes, the Barry I-Iarris tapes are also lost. But I was lucky on Barry I-Iarris' tapes that I put thern on cassettes- So I asked the guy about things that I really needed to have and he says all the tapes and nega—— tive files, the guy didn't want thern. They put thern in a dumpster so I tried to trace the durnpster and the dumpster went to some place in Ohio. To some kind of land fill and so that was a dead end. I don't know where they went then. All I know is they went sorneplace in I think it was Ohio. So I lost“ all the negatives- VVell, I list a good deal of the negatives. I lost the negatives that I had done between '79 and the tiine that Sun Ra died. I lost all those nega- tives that I did of Barry I-Iarris when he had the Jazz Cultural Center. I really had the good negative file 'cause a lot of musicians that would corne by and set in and I would take—I had really good pic- tures. And I lost thern all. The only thing I got left is sorne bad pictures that I have- You know, when you do pictures you do bad copies. Paper cost so much I just didn't throw thern away ‘cause I could always use t.hern for ref- erence. And (it's) the only thing I have left- But the real pictures now that Barry uses a lot, those negatives are gone- PI-I: You still have photos from the '60's? TI-I: Yeah, I have those photographs, 37 fortunately- Those photographs I have but they was in the fire in the big house and they scorched some of the :negatives and I lost a lot of the nega- tives. But I got some left in the 60's. VVhen I was coming home frorn Sweden I was taking a lot of pictures.of Sun Ra and stuff like that and pictures in Europe- Now, what happens with that was those negatives I had. in Sweden so I still have a lot of that- I still have a lot of negatives of Sun Ra- The recent ones that I "took after...I still have a lot of negatives- PI-I: Is there any chance of publishing these in a book? TI-I: If sorneone was interested. You know, at this tirne I have a problern. I still have darkroorn equiprnent but I‘ have problerns with my eyes and focus—— ing. SS0 to go into the darkroom to get a good, sharp picture, it takes rne a little while because I got to wait untill my eyes get adapted and then I have to use a special kind of lens to focus the enlarger and stuff- So I stopped doing so much darkroorn work. So What I do now is when I take photographs, Barry (Harris) has a place I go and I take photographs, I take it in color. Then I get the color (print and) I take it to a place and just let thern rnake the 4x5's copies. Then I corne horne and I scan it into my cornputer and that way I get a...I got a pretty good scanner and I got a pretty good printer so I get pretty good quality and I can get up to 8x 10 color shots. So that's what 38 I'rn doing now instead.of doing dark- room work. It's a little more expensive- Color filrn is expensive. -z¢uu—..-—.-————~—:———-_._——-———————-—_———¢—-_—.—.——..————._.—j.:.—:.:¢——_.-_—_—_1_...:——_.—._.._. TI-I: VVhen did we stay in Berkeley? VVhat year was that? PH: April 1971. TH: I came back to San Francisco with Sun Ra again because we finished the filrn (Space Is The Place)- PH: You did the filrn in '72. TH: Yeah, but they did part of the filrn with the band. Then just rne and Sun Ra corne out to do the rest of the filrn. They did the interior shots and they did the shots when we was out in the desert and We did the shots where he was inside the space capsule. We did the shooting when he got kidnapped. I don't know, I think‘ they cut that out now. Where he put him in the van- And we did the scenes (where) We supposed to be in this joint in Chicago and he was rehearsing the- band in DeLisa and they had the dancers and he started playing his space music and the chandeliers and everything started falling down- All those scenes were done at different times. ‘Cause the band-I was in Europe- I didn't come back with them after that tour and they went to california and did the first part of the filrn and it was just Inusic. They recorded the band, the 39 ‘g * rnusic and stuff like that. But then when (they filmed) the second part of the film with just me and Sun Ra. Nobody else. We took a plane out and we rented a car- I think it was like that. We rented a car. VVe took a plane out and rented car and I made a stupid mistake‘. a Danny's girlfriend was also helping us- PI-I: Danny Thornpson? TH: Yeah, he had a girlfriend and she was helping us- And I didn't .know—well, Sun Ra always warned rne about talking to wornen. VVe11, we was in discussion..- PI-I: V\/hat did he say about that? TI-I: VVe11, What happened was that we was discussing and she was asking rne about what I was doing in the daytirne and---anyway we was living in the same hotel but in the sarne room but it was a double roorn. I had a room and Sun Ra had a room. But in the mornings I had to dress hirn, you know, help dress hirn ‘cause he was so fat he could hardly bend over and so I had to help hirn put on his shoes and socks and stuff like that- And I was telling her, you know, I had the irnpression ‘cause he had rne bring all this film equiprnent and carnera equiprnent. I had an impres- sion that we was going to do some filrn- , ing and that's what I was supposed to be doing and recording and stuff like (that). Although I did do recordings. VVhen we was filrning, Sun Ra, if he was playing any kind of music, I had to record it- So I was telling (her) I'rn_ 40 a little bit disappointed (with) rny role out here. It seerns like I'rn just out here to dress Sun Ra and drive hirn around and stuff like that- And then they didn't pay me nothing for doing photographs and being in the film. I was in a lot of shots and I didn't get no pay for that but I'rn sure they paid Sun Ra for it. But anyway, and he was paying all the bills we'd gotten and food and stuff like that. And then I got to rneet a lot of people- VVe went to diffe- rent places just to see shows and music- ians and stuff. You know how Sun Ra likes to get around and go incognito and sit down and listen to people play and they'd never know that- That's the way he used to find his musicians. VVe1l any— way, I said sornething to the girl and it got back to Sun Ra and we was on the verge of buying a car for rne be- cause we wanted to go——Since I had the carnera we wanted to go up in the rnountains again where we did those first filrns. That when we was out there the first time we did a lot of shooting up in the mountains with the band in silhouette and stuff. 'End up like they was walking on the edge of the Earth. And so he wanted to do that and we couldn't do it ‘cause we were unin- telligible with the University (of Calif- ornia-—Berkeley) so we didn't have a car so he was going to buy a car. VVe11, then she went back and blabberrnouthed what I had said to her. She said to Sun Ra (and) Sun Ra got offended and he didn't buy the car and then he started- VVell, it changed a little bit. I didn't have to go in and dress hirn and every- 41 thing in the morning. Just have hirn put on his shoes and stuff- I didn't have_"_t1o go in and (and ask) what are you going to wear today? Sorne of his clothes srnelled so bad I had to take_ them out to the laundry and get them washed a_nd whatnot. And I was doing stuff like that and I didn't feel like I wanted to do that- That's not my kind of life that I wanted to be that. And my impression was when we left New York that I was going to be filrning. He gave tne the irnpression I was going to be working for Newrna.n as a..- But it wasn't like that- V\/hat I was doing I was doing for Sun Ra and not for New- Inan- And when I got out there I learned that's what it was- But then I had to do all this other stuff. I-Ielping hirn dress and put his bags together and put every-— thing together- VVhen we had to go to rehearsal and stuff I had to pack all his stuff and get a cab and all that stuff-. So I just let it out to this girl and she went back and told Sun Ra and then Sun Ra got very hostile- Not really hostile but he changed and we didn't buy the car and we didn't do no filrning. VVe didn't do nothing. VVe just spent those last two Weeks there doing nothing. V\/hen he'd get back to the hotel he would go in his roorn and go to sleep- And I would have to go out and find a place to eat and all that stuff by my- self. But before, you know, we used to go, when We finished we'd go out and find a place, hear sornebody, have a nice dinner sorneplace and whatnot. But I guess I had to pay the price for that and I opened my rnouth and instead of going out with me he was taking the 42 girl so that's what happened and I came‘ back to New York so I decided I'll go back to Sweden. PH: You knew Sun Ra for fourty five years or so. TH: It seerns like it's yesterday. PH: How did he change through the years if at all? TH: How did he change? I don't think he really changed at all except his music conception. And he stopped playing be- bop and everything that he played was different. He even played blues different in the later years. He wasn't playing blues like he was playing blues in the beginning in Chicago. VVe11, in Chicago he sound a lot like Errol Garner- But he could play, he could really play and he had a good sense of rhythrn. He had a good sense of tones and whatnot. And his arrangements was always rich but then when he came to New York he started writing different. And then he started to have at one point when I come back he would have all these in- ferior musicians that couldn't play. You know, all they could do was get up and just play all these weird sounds and it seemed that he liked that. And most of the tirne when they was sitting in the section they was only faking, they wasn't really playing. Like Elo (Ornoe), I don't think Elo could read rnusic. _And in the beginning Jackson couldn't read Inusic. I don't know how Jackson carne in the band because he was in the 43 band and he was just playing like a bongo type drurn. This big drurn corne_ by accident- They had an electrical storrn and this tree broke down. ' PI-I: Next to the house (in Philadelphia). TF1: The tree when it broke down and they exarnined, they found that the tree was rotten in the inside. So it was easy to make a drurn. So he used it and rnade this drurn but I don't know where his skill come to do that carving. The Egyptian symbols and stuff, the heiro—— glyphics. I mean, he had a lot of talent to be able to do that ‘cause the drurn was very irnpressive but it was fragile. He had carved out so that the drum would rest on its unintelligible. Those things in travel would—those legs, those little knobs that he left on the bottorn of the drurn that he carved out would break off you know. So I think he had to develop a new kind of stand for the drurn. Then the other problem was ‘that the drurn was always too high for hirn to play so he had to have a chair. But it didn't matter. People loved it. But before that, before he had the drurn Jackson was dancing a lot- And they had these costurnes like...VVel1 anyway, they had these costurnes and different crea- tures frorn filrns and they had this one of the devil and it seemed like when Jackson started dancing with this devil costurne on he would like go in a trance and he just moved, you know, and he didn't know when to start—well, he knew when to start but it looked like he never knew when to stop. To stop hirn Sun Ra 44 would have to stop the band and then rnanipulate hixn with the rnusic, from the lvloog or sornething- Then, you know, Danny Davis was doing...Frank- enstein. So they put on quite a show- You know, like during that tirne I think reason he was putting on a show 'cause he only had maybe three or four people in the band that could play the arrange- ments. You know, like John (Gilmore), l\/Iarshall (Allen) and the trumpet player and trornbone. He had Craig Harris, a good reader and Pat Patrick but then some days, sorne Inonths or some years they wasn't with the band so you'd have these other musicians to take their place but they couldn't read. they couldn't read Sun Ra's Inusic anyway. So he had to put on a show. so he would have John and Ivlarshall play and the drum- rners knew the arrangernents and it's a lot of times that he would have a bass player and the bass player didn't—He would do without a bass player ‘cause he couldn't get a bass player to play the arrangements. PI-I: I've seen that- TI-I: Unless Pat (Patrick) carne back and then Pat was playing a lot of bass in the band because he had lost his place, bari- tone (place) to Danny Thornpson and so there was this friction between Danny Thornpson and Pat- PH: Oh really? TH: Yeah, Pat didn't like Danny and Danny would do everything to try and 45 please hirn but it was just one of those things. And plus it carried over to Sun Ra. It was noticable that Sun Ra wouldn't give Pat solo time and he would prefer to have Pat play bass 'cause Pat played electronic bass and so a lot of the jobs Pat was ‘on you didn't hear hirn blow because he was playing bass. A.nd that was because of ego trips. TI-I: V\/hen I was in Chicago I played with Eddie South and I played with.-. (Stuff Srnith). I'rn on that record inci- dentally. That Sun Ra made with Stuff Sxnith. Now, how that carne about. Sornething happened and the drurnnier got sick or something and the musicians union sent rne down for one night to play with hirn as a replacement for the drummer. But as it so happened, the drummer was out for three nights and everyplace I'd go or play, if he wasn't on the gig he would be there- VVe were very close- You know, like we'd meet in the daytime and have food and stuff and he kept very close to rne. And so I'm playing and so Sun Ra is in the back. Nobody knows Sun Ra is sitting in the back rnaking notes and stuff like that. So then after the job I see hirn and so I go to hirn and I introduce hirn to Stuff Srnith and so we hung out- Next thing I know—-But what I don't rernernber is...Sun Ra taped it but I think we did it at Sun Ra's house. But_I'rn not sure ‘cause Sun Ra used to carry that tape recorder around with hirn- VVe rnight‘ 46 have done it at Stuff Srnith's house but I can't remember if we went to Stuff Srnith's 'cause I can't remember Stuff SInith's house. It seerns like to rne In never went to his house because I had just met the man, you know. And I knew hirn for three days. But I think, ‘cause he was irnpressed with Sun Ra and Sun Ra was telling hirn he was a rnusician and writer and he knew Sun Ra, I guess, from the days that he was with Fletcher Henderson. And they had Sonny Blount. And so we went some- place and it must have been Sun Ra's house, or it didn't have to be ‘cause but I had brushes ‘cause I carried this little bag, you know, you carried this little bag with your sticks and brushes and things- Always somebody in the daytirne will play your drurns if you leave the sticks and brushes. So when- ever I leave my drurns on the job- at that time you didn't have to worry -about people stealing your cyrnbals, but they would play your drurns during the daytime. And you come in and your drurns are not in--.you know, you have a place how you sitting and how your drurns are unintelligible and sornebody touches your drurns you know right away when you sit down. And so you don't want that. You want to come in and be comfortable and play the first set cornfortable and,you know, without adjusting the drums and I would take my drurnsticks and my brushes and 47 rnallets. I would take thern home with rne at night- And so I just happened to have my brushes and stuff with rne and wherever we vvent I can't reniernber to save my life. There was a piano with a solovox. That's an attachrnent. and it's attached to the piano and it sounds like an organ and whatnot. So Stuff wanted to hear some arrangements that Sun Ra was doing 'cause he was writing and he was telling Stuff about these arrange- rnents- So Stuff wanted to hear it so Sun Ra took—VVe went to this place and Sun Ra was playing different tunes that he had written and arranged ~and Stuff Srnith got interested and he pulled out his violin and we started to play and I was playing on telephone book ‘cause there were no drurns there- But Sun Ra was recording and so I'm so far away from the rnic it just at tirnes you can hear. But whoever did the rnastering of that probably wasn't interested in the drurn sounds anyway. So I don't know who rnastered those tapes ‘cause Sun Ra did those tapes while I was in Sweden. He sent rne the alburn and the first tirne I heard the tape he sent rne an alburn in Stockholrn. And then he told rne—VVell, I already knew that that was the tirne that he had recorded Stuff Srnith and I was instrurnental in hirn rneeting Stuff S.rnith- But you know what‘? No credit on the record what- soever. I got no credit. VVell, he couldn't hear rne anyway so I guess he say well, why I got to put his narne on it? You can't hear him. TH: Vvhat happened was that I’ve been 48 working for these people for twelve years-.. PI-I: The construction (company). TI-+1: They know that I'rn a rnusician. They used to give rne time off when- ever I had a concert with Sun Ra in Europe or anyplace they would let rne go and they would pay rne. If it's two weeks, three Weeks, whatever it was they would let rne go and rnake the concert. VVhen I took the job I told them so they said anytime you have a concert and anytirne you have to go someplace just tell us and you can go. But I never expected to get paid. But it's just recently that they knew any- thing about rne ‘cause they bought the book (Space Is The Place)- I\/Iy boss got the book from sornebody as a Christrnans present and they started reading this book and then they started asking rne, "I'rn reading a book about (Sun Ra) and somebody has the same name as you-" (TI-I re- plies), "VVel1, you reading about rne." "You did all those things?" But I ' haven't had the book so I don't know what they talking about. I read a couple of chapters but my eyes are bad and they starts to water. So I can't read a book anymore like I used to so I just put it down and I haven't really read it because I ran into some things that's not true. You know, that was interviews that he (John Szwed) did with somebody that is really not true What they said. But__ John had no waylof knowing that. 49 CONVERSATION " w|TI-I PETER HINDs FE BRUA Int 3, 1993 Peter Hinds: I-Iow's Sun Ra doing dovvn there (Birmingham) Jan1es,Jackson: Oh, he's doing pretty good. Seems to be Corning along better than he had been. PI-I: Vvhen was the last time you talked to him? JJ: I talked to hirn 1\/Ionday- And he seerned in pretty good spirits- -PH: I gﬁess Jothan (Callins) is down there with hirn- JJ: Jothan is over in Atlanta, Georgia now at the moment. He had went down with Sonny- VVe had to rnake sure he was in sornebody's hands that he knows and could trust With a lot of strangers. Birmingham is Jothan's home town... PI-I: I-Ias Sun Ra seen any of his old (friends)...Like, say VVa1ter 1\/Iiller? JJ: 1\/Iore than likely because he said everybody, all of his old friends carne over to his sister's house‘ to see hirn. So a rnatter of fact he caught a cold from all of these people Corning in the house so he had‘ to, sort of like, get i out of the way of them. Because they Were.-.you know, he caught a cold and what he did was sign himself into the hospital so he could get away from everybody. PI-I: Is that right? 50 JJ: Yeah, he signed himself into the hospital, you know, and to help the cold too. So he could really get some rest, you know. I-ie said he wasn't really getting any rest _because people were over there, you know, like twelve hours a day. His sister's next d.oor neighboor is a registered nurse and specialized in rehabilitation for stroke victirns- So the Creator has kind of stepped in there and helped out the whole situation which we thought was a really good thing to do- PI-I: So he's back with his sister now. JJ: Yeah. PI-I: I was just curious (about) a couple things- Reading those liner notes on .the (Evidence) CD'S, especially the new ones and all those photographs by Tommy I-Iunter which were just arnazing. JJ: Yeah, he's a hell of a photographer. VVell, he was a fashion photographer for quite some time. I-Iad his own studio up on.Broadway in New York- He's an amazing person. PI-I: VS/hat other kind of stuff has he been doing? JJ: He does wood.carving. He's a cinema- tographer, he does video, he does sound engineering- I rnean he's just like this all around person that's got good ears and good vision. I rnean he can see a picture before he takes it ‘cause he knows what the camera is capable of. And that's sort 51 of like the magic touch with photo- graphy rather than going in to the darkroorn and changing the picture. He can see the pictures he sees and he takes them. He's quite an arnazing person. PH: Those are amazing. I was really surprised to see those pictures there- JJ: He's an amazing kind of person. I mean he's just bubbling over with talent. PH: When did you first meet Tornrny Hunter? JJ: I think I met Bugs (his nickname) in '63. VVas that the year that Kennedy was killed? PH: Yeah, Novernber- JJ: Right, that's the year I rnet hirn. PH: Under what circumstances? JJ: I just met him at a gig in New York over on the VVest Side, you know, in the Village. PH: You started when with Sun Ra? VVhat year was that? JJ: Yeah, that was '63. PH: VVas Tornrny Hunter lugging around his tape recorder back then? Doing any live recordings ? JJ: Oh yeah, he used to do live record- 52 ings. He was a really excellent record-— ing engineer. He had this very, very well put together tape recorder. I think it was a Swedish cornpany (actually Swiss), Nigra or something. PH : Nagra. JJ: Yeah, it's the one that National Geo- graphic and all the ornithologists use to record birdcalls. It works under extreme conditions- PI-I: It's the rnachine. JJ: Great machine and he always had a battery pack and he didn't have to worry about the current i.n the place. He's really a good technician- PI-I: Does he still have tapes stored away? JJ: Yeah, I'm pretty certain he does. PI-I: That's great. That's arnazing. JJ: He's an amazing person, really an amazing person. PI-I: To capture stuff like that back then- That was rnuch more difficult to do. The technology wasn't as ‘accessable and sorne thing like a Nagra was (very expensive)- JJ: I had never heard of the machine of the ‘rnachine and I rernernber when I was young, when I was in rny late teens I, had a wire recorder. Yeah, that was long before the tape recorders came in. 53 That was long before the tape record‘-’-'. H ers came in. PH: So what year was this? JJ: In the early fifties. The late fourties, early fifties. PI-I: VVhat were you doing with your wire recorder? J]: I was playing with a group up in New Haven, Conneticut called Avante 1\/Iodes. We used to just record our rehearsals and stuff. We recorded everything we could because we wanted to listen back to it to make sure we were playing what we were playing. It was a strange thing. And then after that I brought a tape recorder that the tape was paper. The first tape recorder was paper tapes but it was just hard to keep the tape because it deteriorated so quickly. You had to keep it at a con- stant temperature. Couldn't have too much rnoisture, couldn't have too much chine and it would come apart. And so then I finally got one of the first tape recorders out that used rnagnetic plastic. But they had problerns when they first came out because the tape used to stretch. And it was all kind of technical problems with thern. But they finally got it together. Ix/Iy old rnan...he had all these 78's. These old Edisons which were about a quarter of an inch thick- I-Ie (JJ's father) played bass and I had an uncle narned Charles, he played drurns. And they always had guys over 54 at the house playing and I used to wind the Victrola and listening to Fats VVa1ler and Jirnrny Lunceford and all of the bands that were around and I fell in love with Fats VVa11er and Henry "Red" Allen- And the first time I heard Louis Arrnstrong I thought that's who it was. I thought it was I-Ienry "Red" Allen- Because they sang in that same gruff voice and they had that sarne kind of talent for phrasing- You know, every- body thinks that when I sing sornetirne that I'In irnitating Louis Arrnstrong but I'm really trying to i.rnitate I-Ienry "Red" Allen who was to me the person to sing like. I used to try to sing like him when I was a kid- But my voice was too high. But I used to fake a low voice. PI-I: So you've been interested in record- ing for a long tirne. JJ: Oh yeah, I've been doing it ever since I can rernernber. Because we used to go down to VV.T- Grants which was a five and ten and we would go in the sound booth and you could get a recording _rnade of yourself. A ‘little vinyl record- ing about the size of a 45. And we used to go and we used to sing or we would scat the tunes that we wanted to do- PI-I: VVo'u1d you get looks from people? Like, what's going on in there? JJ: No, they sort of like, got used to us coming in there, you know. ‘Cause there was like, five or six of us. VVe'd all crarn ourselves into the ‘booth (starts 1aughing)..-and we'd do one, two, one, 55’ two, three you know. PI-I: Do these things exist or are they long gone? JJ: They're long gone. l\/Iy old man probably has a few of them now- I know we must have done about two or three dozen of them- ‘Cause we were down there every th.ree or four days. PH: How rnuch did that cost to do? JJ: At’ that time it was seventy five cents which was a lot of money. That was a lot of rnoney ‘cause we're talking about the mid thirties and the early part of the 40's- I arrived on the planet in 1930. So by the tirne I was fourteen the war was on. I was ten years old, eleven years old when the war started- But I can rernexnber going there before the war started and I used to collect bottles. VVe'd all collect bottles for two or three days and take the bottles to the stores and we'd get the rnoney and we'd put all our rnoney together and we'd go down there and we'd rnake this little rninute and a half recording. PH: That's about the length? Ninety seconds? JJ: Right. PI-I: What was that, 78 RP1\/I? JJ: Yeah, it was on a 78. And we'd use to look and we would see the stylus 56 cutting in to the vinyl- The same way you'd do planing wood- these little curleycues would corne off the vinyl when the stylus was cutting into it- That was a long time ago- And the s.lot that you put the money in was one of those push in slots where you'd put three quarters and you'd push it in- Seventy five cents was a lot of money. I remember because rny rnother used to get upset because I'd be scuffling and I'd be delivering papers and shining shoes and I'd get seventy five cents and I'd head right to VV-T. Grant. (Laughs) PI-I: For ninety seconds and then it would be gone, but you'd have the record. I'm sure you guys must have brought it horne and listened to it quite a bit. JJ: Yeah, we listened to it over and over again and we always had thern at our parties, our little parties in the basement. PI-I: That rnust have irnpressed people to go, here we are. Put that on- JJ: Yeah, you know, it was strange that the people that I grew up with...It's strange to be in a group that included fernales, like, in the pre teen years. And we were all sort of like, I don't know- VVe didn't play cowboys and indians stuff- VVe were all about vaudeville and stage and singing and dancing. Everybody could soft shoe. And that was the kind of crowd I was with. There was about eight 57 or nine of us and We kind of hung out together and we went to the movies to- gether and We used to trade in our bottles sometime and we'd catch a stage show and we wanted to see actors. VVe were more concerned with in person situations than we were with recordings and stuff- And the rcording industry at that tirne, though it was blossorning, it didn't impact on us as much as an in person performance. So we were more satisfied with seeing actors on stage than we were than going and seeing the rnovie. Our favorite thing in the rnovie was seeing cartoons. That was a great thing and the world news. VVe had all of these crazy things that were happen- ing all over the world but other than that, the regular rnovies was usually, well, it more or less left us cold because the reason We liked the cartoons was that Fletcher Henderson, Jirnrny Lunce— ford, Duke Ellington, I-Ienry "Red" Allen's group, they were all playing for the car- toons. And often the cartoon would start off with a shot of the whole orchestra while they were playing. People like Betty Boop and, what was his narne? There was a dog. I forget his narne. It wasn't a VValt Disney...And there was these two crows that were really our favorites. But we kind of grew up in a kind of strange environment because most of the kids that I knew, their par- ents were in some kind of situation like that because my father was a bass player and my cousin Eddie, he hung out with us. His father, who was my uncle, played the drurns and he was trying to play the trumpet, but there was no trurnpet in 58 school so he was playing bugle and I was playing fife in the fife and drurn corps. And he used to play bugle in it even though it said fife and drurn corps, there were bugles. I would switch back and forth-_ I couldn't rnake up my rnind ‘cause the head of the drurns corps which was the Elk, one of things that is quite like the 1\/Iasons, they got us uniforms and all of that stuff. I would switch back and fort.h- I didn't know which one I wanted really to do. VVhether I wanted to play the fife or whether I wanted to play the drurns- Because I really liked the drurns. I could really play tenor drurns really well and I picked up rhythrns Without even—the teacher would play it and I would play it right behind hirn. VVith— out any real forrnal learning because I played wrong handed. VVhich is why he tried to deter rne from being a drum- rner- Because I was playing left handed when everybody e1se's right hand was going up my left hand was going up- So he would always stick rne in the rniddle so I wouldn't be so noticable. PI-I: Have you had any forrnal drurn lessons at all or anything or you just learned on your own? ' JJ: It was just a natural thing to rne- Even to today, if sornebody tells rne to play a marnbo, I don't know what a rnarnbo is. I don't know what a cha cha, rnarangue is- I don't know what a sarnba is- I don't know any of the narnes of those particular rhythrns- But I've always been able because of- 59 rny natural leaning towa.rd rhythrnic sit- uations, to be able to play with any- body. _It never rnade a difference- I don't care what they played, I would seerningly be capable of playing without interrupting. I always was more con- scious of, rather than the rhythm, I was conscious of the pulse of the rhythrn. Like, you know, the pulse of the rhythrn rather than...I wasn't too conscious of the individual rhythrnic beats that went on. I was always very aware of the pulse of the rhythnri rather than the rhythm itself which gave rne the opportunity to play anything I -want- ed to as long as I stayed with the pulse. So I got a lot of invitations to play a lot of places because everybody realized that I never got in there Way. But I was always playing something that was inter-— esting. So I played for a lot of Portugese bands, As a teenager- PI-I: You're up in Conneticut. Lot of Porutgese in Conneticut. JJ: Right, I played with a lot of Portu- gese bands. As a matter of fact, the first tirne I rnet Horace Silver he was a tenor (saxophone) player then. He was living in Bridgeport (Conneticut)- Either Bridgeport or VVaterberry, I'rn not certain which but I used to always see hirn at I\/Iusician club in Bridgeport. ‘Cause everybody went there to play because it was a rnuch nicer spot than they had in New Haven. So I played with a lot of Portugese bands and I Jﬁarned a lot of Portugese songs. _.}’;or1:ugese and VVest Indian songs. 60 Then my father's from the islands so I already knew all about--- PI-I: VVhich island ? JJ: I-Ie's from St. Kits. l\/Iy rnother's from St‘ Croix and they had. to run. away ‘cause they was from different sides of the track. Her family was teachers and doctors and lawyers--. and certified public accountant, that kind of thing. Vvhereas rny father's farnily was, they was strictly fisher- men. They had a lot of boats. Actually, rny farnily had more material wealth than my mother's farnily but my rnother's farnily socially was rnore acceptable than my father's farnily even though his farnily had all of these boats. PI-I: You went with Sun Ra down to Nigeria didn't you on that tour? JJ: Yeah, I was in Lagos. I played with the Burundis. I rnean I played with everybody I could find. V\/hen we were in Nigeria. VVe were outside of Lagos about five or six miles outside of Lagos- they had built a whole other town called Festec Village and they had black people from every place on the planet irnagin—— able. And I played with some fellows frorn Guinea- I played with some fellows from South Africa, I played (with n1u—— sicians) from Senegal and Gabon and Tanzania and l\/Iozainbique- Everybody that could play a drurn I was playing with thern- 61 PI-I: Did you have the lightning drurn with you? JJ: Yeah, ‘cause that druxn was built in 1970. PH: And what year was the Nigerian tour? JJ: '76- And so I just played with everybody and everybody was sort of like startled because they're looking at rne like there's this Arnerican with this big giant darnn drurn which is a drurn that when they have big drutns like that tey usually call that drurn the King's Voice. l\/Iost tribal people, when they have really large drurn and that's the drurn that's usually played to tell people here corne-s the king; the procession of the king into the village or that the king was leaving the village- One or the other. So they were kind of arnazed that I didn't live in Africa and yet I was able to play with everybody- ‘Cause I wasn't stuck down into traditional drurnrning. I was just drumming. It didn't have nothing to do with me knowing anything. And they found that kind of startling- It wasn't as startling to Ine. The only thing that was startling to me was that they were startled. To me it seemed norrnal. I was a little per- turbed with the fact that these tribal people over here found it irnpossible to play with these other tribal folks over here because they were frorn different tribes, different parts of the continent. So they had no common ground with which to play the rhythms. But they 62 were more concerned with the traditional and every rhythnq had a particular mean- ing and had it's place in whatever the social situation was. VVhether it was the birth of somebody or the passing of sornebody or the marriage of sornebody or good crop or bad crop or appease- rnent for having done this or Whatever have you, I was never aware of all of those things. It left me free to just play the drurns and not be concerned with what I was playing but feeling where the other drurnrners were going- And the most fun I had were with the Burundis ‘cause they were arnazing. VVe “played for about two hours and then they started trying to do different drurnrning like cross the pulse up or change the pulse to find out whether they could catch rne (Laughs) in a position where I was unable to play something. But because I knew where the pulse was the rninute the pulse changed I was changing with it without any pre think- ing- Unintelligible the thought process. Any kind of trick they wanted to I was still right there and a lot of the things I would cut the pulse in half and then sometime I would double the pulse on the pulse that the rhythms were playing. A lot of tirnes the guys would bust out laughing because it was like a musical joke- And they were just fascinated and wanted to know where were rny people from and how did I learn the drum and who told me and where did I get the drum. PI-I: VVere_they surprised when you said I made it in Philadelphia? ~ 63 JJ: Yeah, they said, "How you make the drurn?" I said yeah-.-They say, "A.hhh-" And I rnet these fellows frorn Senegal and there's a word in Senegal that means bright lifting light. In other words it's like sunrise. It's another word for sun- rise but it also rneans high spirit. And the word is (sounds like) ojack- They say it like that. They asked rny narne and I'd say, "Oh, my narne's Jack-" So right away everybody in Festec Village was saying ojack corning down the road- (Laughs). Yeah, really arnazing stuff. PI-I: I was looking in the paper today and I noticed there's been a rash of UFO sightings in VVisconsin. Did you hear about that? JJ: (Indicates yes) PH: Have you ever had any UFO exper- ience? JJ: Yeah, we were on our way from Chicago one time going out to Seattle, VVashington. PI-I: VVhat year was this? JJ: This was in '73- And I rernernber because we were in this observation car on the Northern Pacific Railroad going through the Dakotas all the way... PH: During the evening? JJ: Yeah, and all the rnernbers of the band, we went up to the observation car and we're all looking out through this 64 observation dorne on the top of the car and, you know, we were intensely look- ing because the skies out there are, like, you don't got that backwash of light frorn the city. You don't have the kind of.-.what would you call it? Debris in the air. PI-I: Very clear. JJ: Yeah, very clear air- PI-I: VVas this during surnrner (or) winter tirne? JJ: This was in the...right at the end of spring, going into surnrner. And the people were asking us, "VVe1l, what are you looking for?" And I remember sorne—— one saying, I'rn not sure whether it was John (Crilrnore) but I think it was John and He said, "VVe're looking for flying saucers-" This guy just kind of laughed and turned to a wornan sitting next to hirn and said that, "They looking for UFO's." And so everybody in the car kind of had a chuckle about that but then suddenly we looked out and Clifford. Jarvis, the drurnrner, said, "Look! VVhat's that!? VVhat's that!? VVhat's that!?" And we all ran to the other side of the car- VVe went across the aisle to the other side of the car and we look up and there's like a v—shaped formation, you know, just going along, you know, like seerningly in line with the train. PI-I: Now, wasnthis high in the air? JJ: Not straight up- VVe were looking, 65 like, almost on the level with the hori-— zon, but above the horizon and the sky was, like, black because there was no lights from any cities or anything so the sky was really black- The stars really look like...I rnean they were really luminous. I rnean it was like looking at the stars alrnost in the desert. But not quite that clear and pronounced. And all the people in the car jumped up and they started looking too. And then all of a sudden the train's going along and they're ‘sort of like seem to have been keeping pace with the train but they're quite a distance off. We had the feeling that they were quite a distance off but then suddenly they, like, shot up. I rnean, they had been going along, like, above the horizon, midway between the horizon and straight up and‘ suddenly they, like, started up without making a curve. It was alrnost like a 45 degree angle. They shot up and far ahead of the train we could still see them. And then they just stopped. They just stopped and hung in the air. And the train was going along and they hung in the air untill it seemed like they had gotten to the point where we were looking at them in the same position that we were when we first spotted thern. VVe were looking directly out of the train. Like a right angle to our line of travel. And they were much higher then. They were be- tween the horizon and straight up- And then one by one they just seemed to shoot off into different directions. I rnean and disappeared arnazingly fast. And you knew that they were going away from you because they dirninished 66 in size but really swift. PI-I: How many do you think there were? JJ: I think there were something like seven or nine. I know it was an uneven nurnber. In my rnind it seerns more like seven because it seerned to be on each side Vand one on the point- That was the rnost memorable one. I had seen a few here in Philadelphia which scared the hell out of me because John (Gilmore) also had the same, just about the sarne ex—- perience. PI-I: John told me about that- VVhat was your experience? JJ: It looked like it was following hirn. I had the sarne kind of experience and I was even afraid to tell anybody. PI-I: Sarne kind of thing? You were out in the street? JJ: Yeah, I was on my way home frorn a friends house during the evening and there's this—and it's on the same street. There's this street called Arrnet Street. and there's two trestles that go across Arrnet Street for the high speed (rail) line that goes to center city. Vvalking along and all of a sudden you get that hair standing up on your neck kind of feeling. You know sornething is not the way it should be. There was an unnatural kind of presence that you could just feel in you and I becatne really appre- hensive. Especially when all the street 67 lights went out. PI-I: Did they go out or were they out? JJ: No, they went out. PI-I: VVhat tirne was this about? JJ: One thing that has sort of like intrigued me for quite a nurnber of years, this is been happening to me: I will come down a street and as I come <:lown ‘the street sometimes one or two lights would go out, street lights and at first I didn't pay it any mind. I think what I did was, I was in a state of denial on that level because I just couldn't accept that just because I'm walking down the street the light goes out. It was time for the light to go out, that's what I told myself. Just coincidence. But after a while it got to the point where it got too crazy. And so I would always get sornebody to drive me home if I was far away from home ‘cause it was just too scary to walk down the street and have lights start going out. But this particular evening all the lights on Arrnet Street, all of the street lights went out just like sornebody had thrown a switch. PI—I: VVhat tirne was this about? JJ: This was close to rnidnight 'cause it was in the summertime 'cause I rernern— ber having a t—shirt on. And I was corning frorn Gerrnantown going toward home and that's like four blocks down Arrnet Street, corning horne from 68 Gerniantown and I get between German- town and the first block and there's nothing in the block but a construction company on one side which is just fence and on the other side of the street there's the telephone cornpany- So I'm walking down and all of a sudden all of the lights on Arrnet Street just...they didn't get brighter or slowly go out. They just went out like somebody threw a switch. So I look over at the telephone company and the telephone company is well lit and the construction cornpany, their yard with all of their trucks and equipment and stuff, it's well -lit. But the street lights are out totally. And then I got that feeling of, I was really apprehensive and having had the exper- ience of lights going out before I'm still in a vague state of denial. I don't want to accept the fact that this is happening so I stopped. And when I stopped I heard, well I didn't hear, actually I felt. Like you feel a bass fiddle. I felt this sort of like alrnost sub sonic kind of throb- Like a bass throbbing on the fourth string. But it's not throbbing like slowly. It's alrnost like (l\/Iakes sound). And my first thought, that sound was very—- You see, this wasn't a sound. But a sound like that makes me think of helicopters. ‘Cause I was in Korea and I rexnernber the helicopters. VVe used to call them the bhuddas 'cause that's what it sounded like. Bhudda, bhudda, bhudda, bhudda, bhudda- But that was that sarne kind of feeling without the sound. And I turned around to look down Arrnet Street and I just saw an 69 object that was above Arrnet Street that lit directly below it. I still never could discern what the shape of it was because the brightness of it was strange. It hurt my eyes but it was like looking at sorne- body welding. PI-I: So it was a ultra white light? JJ: Yeah, I mean really, really, really harsh, harsh, harsh and I still heard heard it's sound so I ran untill I got to Bayton Street which was like a block and a half away. VVhen I got to Bayton Street the lights carne on between Bayton and 1\/Iorton which was one block before I turned the corner on to l\/Iorton Street. And the lights went on and when I _turned around to look I didn't see the object and I didn't feel that strange.-. feeling in Inc. And so I went on in the house thinking Inaybe I'm tired, I'In hallucinating (Laughs). Anything but that. But you don't want to have to give that kind of inforrnation to people who are just going to look at you and say, "Yeah Jack, alright. Go lay down." (Laughs) PI-I: I-Ie's with Sun Ra, we know about that (PH and JJ laugh). JJ: Yeah, yeah you know. So I didn't deal with it too much but I knew that that was what happened and I wasn't... Strangely enough, once I got home and I got in my room and I layed down ‘I thought about it and I said, "Darrin! I Wonder‘ whether or not they were trying to tell the sornething?" And then I hooked 70 up the whole thing about the lights- I said, "I\/Iaybe there is sorne kind of cornrnunication that's being atternpted that either I'm too dense to be aware of or recognize and I never Wrote down the dates when these particular lights would go out on me. And it used to happen to me quite often right here on l\/Iorton Street. I would be coming frorn Shelton Avenue and I would walk and the rninute I made that turn in the street it was usually the light at the corner or the light that's before the house. They would just go right out. I never wrote down the dates so I didn't have any sequence. I never wrote down the tirne. It was only later that I begin to think of that and I say, see, I should have had some kind of written record of exactly when these things took place so I would have known, so I would have had some kind of astro- logical point in time to rnake some kind of corralation with what was going on in the heavens, what was going on on the planet, what was going on in my own life, vvhat was going on in the life of people who I knew, so that I could have—'Cause I got to the point where I realized that it's just very well might have been sorne kind of coded message or attern_pt at cornrnunication that I was dense to deal with ‘cause of fear and denial overode rny ability to deal with it. 71 Peter Hinds: I was listening to a piece called Circe. That's a real fascinating piece and you have a feature on gong. Tornrny Hunter: That was the third tirne we taped- And he had this big, fat wornan come by (Theda Barbara). She was an opera star or sornething like that- And so instead of Sun Ra having her singing words he had her to do (wordless vocal), how do you call (it)? I don't what type that is. But anyway, she was so excited to be able to do that for the first tirne in her life- So she was very excited- But it's a funny thing, she never carne back again- PI-I: That's what I understand- So was that your gong? VVho's gong was that? TI-I: It belonged to a Broadway show- that was rehearsing in the studio. And we borrowed it 'cause we were down——, stairs so I went upstairs and borrowed a gong. They was doing Sound of, not Sound of l\/Iusic. VVhat's the narne of that thing with Yul Brenner? PI-I: The King and 1. TH: The King and I. They was rehears- ing in the studio and we borrowed the instrurnents frorn thern. PI-I: It sounded like you were rnaybe walking around a little bit. TI-I: You know, we only had three rnicrophones so I had to switch from place to place. I would have to hand 72 hold the mic and then when I was playing the gong I would have to give the mic to the lady that was singing ‘cause the gong was too loud. VVe did a little trial and error that where she should stand. So we found that exact place and-..haven't heard that in a long tirne. PI-I: VVhat kind of rnicrophones did you use? TI-I: We were using Shure l\/Iicrophones- They was the square kind that looked like studio rnicrophones but they was pretty good because you could change them to lower irnpedance to higher irnpedance. PI-I: Do you rernernber the nurnber on them? TI-I: I cannot remember the nurnber. I still have the rnicrophones but they in Sweden. PH: There's a photo that you took of a rehearsal that's inside one of the Evi-— dence CD's and it's taken like you Were on a ladder or sornething or in a bal- cony. TI-I: No, it was in the balcony. PI-I: And you can see a rnicrophone on a stand right next to the piano and right in front of the keyboard. TI-I: That was a lone rnicrophone? 73 PI-I: I could see one rnicrophone on a stand. Just right next to the keyboard where Sun Ra is playing and then every- one is gathered around in a serni circle, pretty close, righ.t behind Sun Ra. TH: I think that rnicrophone, I got that one here, that was a---I forgot the name of it- However I lost the cable and it's one of those five pronged cables that you change the irnpedance of the rnicro- phone in the cable connection. So I lost the cable and when I lost the cable I don't remember what the connections are for the low impedance- PH: Did you usually record the band in a serni circle, fairly close? TH: VVhen you don't have but one In-ic for all the horns, they have to be in a circle- And the lowest playing horn is closest to the mics and the loudest is the furthest away from the rnics. PH: I was listening to Cosmic Tones For l\/Iental Therapy last night and it's really interesting because I was thinking of the way you recorded and the bass violin is really nicely balanced with everything else, with the saxophones- And everyone sounds rea.l close around that rnic and it's a very nice recording- TH: I was recording that with," I think, two or three rnics and the bass and the piano, the bass was alrnost touching the piano and I had the rnicrophone on the stand under the piano facing the bass. And so it was just a record and play- 74 back, you know, record and playback untill we got the Inicrophone... PI-I: The right balance- TI-I: The right balance - I t didn' t take long. After a while you start to learn and you start to be able to judge- PI-I: You get a feel for what's going to work. TI-I: Yeah . PI-I: I was also listening to a piece last night called Infinity of the Universe and... TH: You got Ine because I don't listen to those records too much. PI-I: There's a drurn solo on that piece- I)rurnrner's using rnallets. TI-I: That Was rne. And that Was done in Brooklyn- I was playing with an organ trio. PI-I : VVith Whorn? TI-I: It was Sarah 1\/IcLaw1er' and Richard Otto. I was playing with them at this Tip Top (Club) in Brooklyn and so in the daytirne, We only went a couple of tirnes. We went there and recorded 'cause Sun Ra had never played a I-Iarnrnond Organ before. So We did that the Tip Top and I used rnallets because I was a little bit too close to the rnicrophone. The Way we had to set 75 the rnicrophone up so that you could get the-..VVe1l, the organ is so powerful so we couldn't set the rnicrophone too close to the organ but we had to set it at a place where we could get John, 1\/Iarshall, Pat and Ronnie Boykins, so that we could get thern in rnicrophone range- And to do that I couldn't rnove rny drurns- The bandstand was so srnall that I couldn't rnove rny drulns so we had to figure out a way to record with- out the drunls taking out everything- But it worked out OK- PI-I: It worked out very nice- It was a very nice solo too- I suspected it was you- TI-I: You know what happened? VVhen Sun Ra put those records out I was in Sweden and he put on the records, he put on Clifford Jarvis’ narne on the record- Now, Clifford Jarvis never played with Sun Ra playing organ- So I'rn the only one that ever played with Sun Ra playing I-Iarnrnond Organ- Now, he played a V\/urlitzer and I think that he was by~ hisself, rnaybe with the band and he didn't have a drurnxner- I'In not sure about that because rny rnernory is getting a little cloudy- But I rernernber that after he did the Hammond and this was the first tirne he ever played on a I-Iarnrnond Organ- The I-Ianlrnond Organ with all those buttons and stuff and stops- I don't know how he rnanaged- Listen, he Inanaged the 1\/Ioog so I guess-.- PI-I: VVhat about Scoby Strornan? 76 TH: VVhat. happened with Scoby was that we was rehearsing for a concert at the Henry House settlement and it was Sun Ra's first concert (In New York City). PH: The narne of this place was? TH: The Henry Street Settlement. Now, what happened was that I had to bring Iny drurns back. I was still playing in Brooklyn so for rehearsal I didn't have no extra drurns so I would have to bring my drurns in the car to rehearse- And so we were off for a l\/[onday and a Tuesday I think so I had a habit, ‘cause I live in Bayside, I had a habit of leaving the drurns in the car and so Sun Ra told me you shouldn't leave your drurns in the car- You should take thern out. If it takes a little tirne you still got your drurns. But anyway, we was rehearsing every day and they had a Broadway show at the place where I worked so we couldn't rehearse there so he was re- hearsing and Scoby had a loft with sornebody and we was rehearsing there. Now, the night before the concert my car got stolen with my drurns. And so he had to get another drurnrner so he got Scoby- And that's how Scoby corne to be with the band. And he showed up a couple of tirnes when we was rehears—— ing or recording at the studio. But he didn't stay with hirn very long- But after that, like I would be on the road with Sarah and thern for rnaybe a rnonth and I don't know—During that tirne he had just started taking Clifford Jarvis so I don't know how long Scoby stayed with the band. 77 I don't remember hirn recording more than one tirne or two tirnes at the most. PI-I: I—Ie was a dancer also, wasn't he? TI-I: Later- He started dancing when he was with Barry Harris‘ group. ’VVell, he might have started earlier but I never knew about his dancing untill he was dancing with Barry Harris’ concert. But he was considered a drurnrner- PI-I: And also, Al I-Iassan was on these recordings too. TI-I: Now, Sun Ra would bring in some ‘ new people and they'd just be there one tirne- I never got a chance to know hirn- So he's probably one of them that I really didn't get a chance to know- PI-I: He was around for a couple years in the Inid sixties. TI-I: It rnust have been after I left and went to Sweden- j——..__.:——_:...—___j1—._—_————.—_._._..__jj._——..__:.—__.:..—.._.—__.._:_._..__.:...__—..¢__—. PI-I: VVhat did people rnake of Sun Ra when he carne to New York? TI—I: It was amazing that we could go into a place——VVell, you know when he first carne to New York he was still playing a lot of Jazz repertoire. But he always started his -Inusic with a different kind of rhythrn. I rnean, whatever he played usually have a different kind of rhythm unless it 78 was real fast or sornething like that- And rnaybe that's why I stayed with hirn so long because I could play real fast. But it was always crowded- Even at the first job we had in New York we was at this---on Fourth Street I think it Was. On Third Street and it was a place called The Bazaar and they had sawdust on the floor and all these instrurnents and bicycles and all this stuff hanging from the ceiling. And it was a big open place like there was-— They had doors,I guess, for the front but it was always open and people carne in and We start—It was in the VVinter tirne when We started I think- Or it was just becorning Spring or Whatever. But it was kind of cold in there but this place was always packed, it was full of people and I don't know- I guess they wanted to corne the place was known to be avante garde place according to other clubs, you know, the standards. So rnaybe they just wanted to corne but it was crowded. And incidentally, the whole band and I think We had about eight or nine people in the band, the whole band only got—The Whole band, Sun Ra got five dollars a night, sometimes eight dollars. That was enough to pay the rent and buyrfood plus l\/Iarshall and I was working on the day that we ,weren't playing there, B/Iarshall and I was playing at another club on Bleeker Street and I was playing conga drurns and he was playing flute and We made five dollars a night- The both of us together. And of course I was living at hprrie and I didn't need any Inoney 79 so all the rnoney went to help the band. But it was fantastic. We got a following frorn that. Then after we left the Bazaar we went to the Playhouse- And this was about the tirne that Richard Otto had caught on‘ and so we started working and we really started working- I would be gone for two or three rnonths. But we was working at the Playhouse and so during the time I was away Sun Ra had-..VVhat's his narne?..-Bi1ly I-Iiggins- I came back in town one night and I went by to see Sun Ra and so Sun Ra said yeah, sit in. And he told Billy who I was and Billy let rne sit in on his drurns- And when I carne off--.what's this saxo—— phone player that was with l\/Iingus that died?--.I can't think of his name and it's like---VVel1 anyway, he was there and he wanted to rneet l\/Iarshall and after the set was over Billy Higgins carne up to me and said, "l\/Ian, you sound like l\/Iax Roach." And why did he say that for? Sun Ra wouldn't let rne play no more that night (Laughs)- He told rne, "I want you to play my rnusic-" But anyway, that was the first tirne I rnet Billy Higgins and we've been friends ever since. BB B B- TI-I: I haven't played since Sun Ra died. I haven't played since we did that last concert in Europe. So I just stopped playing. V\/ell, for one reason I didn't like the way Buster (Srnith) played drurns with the band. I didn't like that sound. I don't like the way he was being. 80 pushy and you can never really play anything tasty ‘cause he plays so loud that he tries to cover up anything you doing so I just said, well I don't like it. Better than cornplaining, I just stopped playing. So if Sun Ra wanted hirn, that's Sun Ra's business. So I just stopped playing and then after a while, you stop playing for a while you lose your coordi- nation in your hands and your feet- And you lose your ideas and when you get back on the drurn everything is foreign and you think you can do something and it don't work, you know, and you don't have a good sense of time. VVhatever people says, I think that's developed and you have to practice and play and your time cornes with everything else. VVhen it all cornes together it's good but When it's rnisplaced out sorneplace it's like a jigsaw puzzle. You have to bring it all together- So I think what I'll do is practice a little bit. 1\/Iaybe for a rnonth I'll practice on practice pads and then I'll go out unintelligible. One day a Week is not going to get you anyplace ‘cause actually need to play everyday to get that feeling- But one day a Week, at least I"rn putting my feet in the Water. _-——:;.—_:.._—.————-_—:.——..————————j.__..j—_.—-—__._____——_..._._—jjj-.__.:..-.—.——j______—__ PI-I: The story about the Pyrarnids was just wild. Going into the Great Pyrarnid- TH: And it's funny, Whoever gave the inforrnation to John (Szvved) gave hirn the wrong inforrnation. I don't know. l\/Iaybe Pico (Danny Thornpson) did that. There were only three of us there. 81 It was rne, Sun Ra and Danny Thornpson. John never asked rne about it- And when I read it, it wasn't quite the way it happ- ened- PI-I: It's arnazing to think of Sun Ra clirnbing up the Pyrarn.id. TI-I: You got to rernernber that the» rnan that was leading us rnust have been ten years older than Sun Ra- PI-—I: Sun Ra was 57 when he was doing that. TI-I: This rnan was pretty old‘ and so he was clirnbing up and it was hirn, Sun Ra, I was after Sun Ra and then Danny Thornpson was after me going up. And that was untill we got to the Queen's Charnber. Then after we got to the Queen's Charnber it was the leader and Sun Ra then Danny Thornpson ‘cause Sun Ra give Danny Thornpson his re- corder to carry and I was last. And'I didn't have nothing (laughing) to fall back on unintelligible. I didn't look back- I just kept clirnbing. It was arnaz— ing to see all of these big stones, huge stones. You can't irnagine just how huge they are and it Vvas like, they were held up by stone and you knock out a peg and those stones slide down and it had blocked the entrance and it's axnazing that thern grave robbers out through that stone- Tiny hole that you can just body through. It's what ’we had to do to get into the Queen's Charnber- But getting in the King's Charnber Was_OK ‘cause We could get through it alright. 82 Sun Ra had a little hard tirne getting in to the Queen's Charnber. PI-I: Tight squeeze? TI-I: Tight squeeze , yeah . PI-I: I've seen Videos and people crawling and I just think of Sun Ra and you guys crawling down those passages. ‘TI-I: And in the Ineantirne he's telling us things that happened in the Pyramid that he read about and people have told hirn about. And they had told him about this rnan who slept in the Pyramid and I don't rernernber if it was the King's Charnber- I think it was the Queen's Charnber. (He) had slept in this Pyrarnid, the next rnor.n— ing they found hirn dead. And sornebody else slept in the King's Chamber and he died shortly after. Now, these was stories that Sun Ra was telling, you know, he had been told. So I don't know how true they were. _—.:..-————-—._—._—_..j_._.j.:._—j._—-.:1_——...—..—.__._.._..i.3._—..:.j._____..__._1___.j_:_._—_. TI-I: VVhen the ligh.ts went out and I was saying I hope we don't have to stay here all night- This thought was in my mind. I hope We don't have to stay here all night- PI-I: How did Sun Ra react after Corning out? What were his feelings and thoughts about the whple incident? TI-I: Sun Ra was arnazed. He was arnazed that part of-—son‘1ething he had read about .33 saying Ra's name nine tirnes that some- thing would happen- And he was arnazed that it happened- That when they chanted Sun Ra, I don't rernernber if it was Ra or Sun Ra but anyway, whenthey chanted after nine (times) the lights went out. And he was saying, "I-Irnrn hrnrn, I told you so- I told you. You're going to listen to rne now." But he was quite arnazed about that- I don't really know if he thought really it was going to happen. ‘Cause he didn't show no fear. The only ones that showed fear was me and Danny. Danny tried not to show no fear- But, I rnean I was a little bit afraid‘. l\/Iessing with nature and rnessing in sornething you don't know about- I was a little bit unintelligible. 1\/Iaybe it was true, I don't know. But if it is true I don't want to be shaking the boat- But it happened- I was there! It actually happened, rnan. First they played the music. Sun Ra had recorded some special music. PI-I: Do you rernernber what it was? TI-I: No, I have no idea. l\/Iaybe Danny Thornpson knows. But he had recorded sorne special rnusic and he was playing this music on, he had one of those... portable (cassette p1ayer)...They played the rnusic. This was after we discovered where the air was corning in- VVe walked around untill we felt the air corning in and it was the air corning through a seam in the wall and they said that air vent went all the way to the top of the Pyra- rnid. But anyway, they» played the rnusic through that vent- After they played the music, then Sun Ra said, " Now we going 84 Ra's narne nine tirnes-" And hirn and Danny started. And I didn't have no part in it. Hirn and Danny started say- ing Ra, Ra and they got to nine the lights went out. Now, I don't know if anybody else, there was only us up there. How could anybody else in the Pyrarnid hear what we were saying or hear what we was doing and turn the lights out? l\/Iaybe they read the sarne thing Sun Ra read had read and--.Was trying to keep it alive- But I don't see how anybody could hear us- But it happened and I was there- And when the lights went out I was near the door so I went out the door and I stood—I have a good sense of direction on where we came so I know that directly in front of the door, about ten feet is where we go down. So What I did when I carne out the door, I turned to the left and went to paces and then turned around and faced the door and I had my arms locked together on my chest. And I just stood that way. And when they decided to corne out, the guide lit a candle and they decided to corne out of the Pyramid. The guide carne out first and the guide put the candle in my face and I swear he rnust have jurnped I don't know how many feet. He jumped quite a distance and he was a old rnan- I-Ie jurnped. I-Ie turned White as a sheet- It scared hirn ‘cause I'rn standing there 1ike---an ancient Egyptian- The way I'rn standing there with my arms folded- Sun Ra came out, "VVhat happened, what happened?" And the guide's still got the candle now. Sun Ra sees me and Danny sees me. They jurnp. VVe stood there for a few rninutes 85 and they discussed it- The guide (said), "You can't go down in the darkness with the candle because if we lose this candle and the candle goes out for some reason it can be very dangerous-" And while they talking about that, the lights came back on. And so we got out of there- And I just thought, rnaybe I better not go with Danny (laughing) and Sun Ra anyrnore- But I did. I went to another place- PI-I: You're talking about the Valley of the Kings. How did you get your nick- narne Bugs‘? TI-I: I'm part Indian. That was a name that rny grandfather had given me. It was an Indiang narne and nobody could say it- But the name rneant bug. It rneant flying bug or crawling bug or sornething like that- But only Bugs stuck after he died. Just everybody started calling Ine Bugs- I think I was about ten years old before I knew rny own name and I've had that name ever since because rny farnily calls rne that name and there's a lot of the farnily don't really know rny full narne- So then it just stuck. PI-:I: There's a Sun Ra cornposition called Adventures of a Bugs I-Iunter- TI-I: That's rne- PI-1: That's you. That's what I figured- Any story behind that? TI-I: I don't know what the story was- 86 VVe was editing sorne tapes and Sun Ra found this tune in the tapes and he asked me to cut it out but he didn't know how to cut it out. Anyway, the band left to eat and he left me there to edit this tape. So when he came back I had cut it out. I had edited and so he listened to it and he says, "The Adven- tures of Bugs I-Iunter." And then he says, "That's the name of the tune." And that's what he named it. Now, other than that, I was playing on the tune but other than that I don't know. during the sarne week we edit another thing and he called it.-.VVhat's the french horns narne? PI-I: Vincent Chancey . TI-I: Vincent Chancey, yeah. He did one for Vincent Chancey called taking a chance on Chancey. And that was like maybe the weekend or the early part of the next week. We was still editing rnaterial- PI-I: Where were you editing? TI-I: We were in...I can't remember the name of the city. See, that's where my rnernory is bad. VVe was in California and we had rnoved from Berkeley, well I had rnoved frorn Berkeley but Sun Ra had rnoved to Oakland. VVe was in this house in Oakland and so it was a big house and Sun Ra had his electrical instrurnents set up and we would go down and rehearse there and edit and also we did shoot slides for the pro- jector and so it was like a workshop. 87 Plus the University (of California) had given us two cars so I had a car and I could drive clown every day to Oakland. So it wasn't no-..I didn't even get to do anything or see rnuch because we was working all the tirne- V\/hen we wasn't rehearsing we was editing tapes or we was shooting rnovies. PH: So you had a couple of rnachines at your place? TI-I: Sun Ra had rnachines. I had rny rnachine- I had a Nagra then. but Sun Ra had an Arnpex bigger than rnine- It was a big gray box. He had a Tanberg. So he had two tape recorders plus he had a rnovie projector and he had one that you could play sound tape at the sarne tirne as the rnovies and we were trying to edit these films and the film had already had the sound on the filrn and you know, you can't edit that be- cause the sound is like, twenty six frarnes before the picture- So that when you edit the picture you cut off some of the sound. So we're there and we're trying to edit these filrns and the filrns they (Jirn Newrnan) had sent Sun Ra stuff that they had done before and he was trying to re edit because he wanted to take out all the sex stuff and eveything out of that. He was trying to edit and it just wouldn't work. And so I told hirn that the only way I could niake it work is to take the sound off and put it on ,16rnrn tape and edit the sound and the pictures to-—- gether on an editing table. But he didn't want to spend that money that you had 88 to hire editing board. And what happens, I thought it would be cheap like in Swe- den. For twenty five dollars you can get an editing table for the whole week- Here it was like fourty five dollars an hour- So its arnazing the difference in price- And you get a good editing board. I rnean really good editing- It's not like those things that they have in Hollywood where you unintelligible the handle. I rnean these are good editing Steinbeck and what not. They're good editing boards. And it's twenty five dollars a day and they charging twenty five dollars or more an hour. PI-I: So when you carne to California you packed up these Inac:hines...Sun Ra's big Arnpex you said? TH: Sun Ra, when he travels he had a lot of people in the band. VVe travelled (with) alrnost a whole car full of equip- ment when we travelled. Or either he would hire a truck and the truck would be full. I didn't go out there with hirn. I carne out rnaybe few days later, but I flew out- So I don't know if they drove out or how they got there. PI-I: So you had your Nagra over your shoulder? TI-I: Yeah, I always carry my Nagra my- self. I didn't trust that with nobody- PH: That's a fantastic rnachine as you know. TI-I: At that time I only had one track- 89 It was four track but when I went to Nigeria it got stolen so the Nigerian governrnent bought rne another Nagra so it was stereo. It is the one I have now. Still have that stereo and it's in pretty good shape. I do a 1ot_of things for Barry (Harris) and I use that but also have console but I'rn having pro- blerns getting a VU meter for the con- sole. VVe put it in the car and sornething happened. It turned over and it broke the VU rneter. It's a four track and so now I can record it- It doesn't stop the recording but What it does is I can't see what (the recording levels are in) relation to the other tracks. I have to have a earphone so I can do that- And you can't walk around and adjust things with ear- phones on- So I been trying to get that fixed but I can't no place to get that VU rneter (fixed). So rnostly I just use the Nagra and I got a rnixing board and pre arnps that I can put it out the speakers and I‘ have rnoniters and what not- And it's a lot easier and .it's a lot less to carry and I got these clarnps very cheap once at a sale. You just clarnp these clarnps on to Inicrophone stands which means that if they have a sound systern I can clarnp Iny rnic. I can piggyback, you know. But it's not a good idea be- cause they never put the rnic right for your sound. For what I hear and what I Want the rnics are never placed (in) the right place- So then I have to go and try and change the rnicrophones to get different Inicrophones with different sounds and sound characteristics. But I A haven't been doing rnuch of that anyrnore since I got sick- 90 PI-I: You've got a real nice solo on Infinity of the Universe. I was listening to that last night. TI-I: Very seldorn that Sun Ra give me a solo- PI-I: VVhy was that? TH: He told Ine I sound like too much like l\/Iax Roach. So it was very seldorn I got a solo. Sometimes he would give me a solo but usually he would give the solo to Lex (Hurnphries). And when the other drummer was in-..what's his name? PI-I: Clifford (Jarvis) . . . TI-I: Clifford would get all the solos. But Clifford is a fantastic drurnrner. Bar none, he's a fantastic drummer. He's egotistical but he's a fantastic drurnrner. PH: VVe'l1 save that one for the next story. I know he's had his problerns- I know that Sun Ra left hirn in Egypt- TH: Sun Ra tries to tarne everybody- He couldn't tarne Clifford. 91 sum nonmumono CONVERSATION MAY 7, 1987 SAN FRANCISCO, CA Peter Hinds: You're‘ (Don 1\/Iurnford) in (room) 412? Don I\/Iurnford: Yeah . PH: OK, I might as well run up there real quick- (PI-I exits) DIVI: Good cat. Sun Ra: I reckon. It's like I told them on the radio. I said I'rn not of this di- mension. they can believe it if they want to or not. (Someone said), It's irnposs— ible I can peoples together this long and have as Inuch to‘ offer. I said, "VVell, I'rn not of this dirnension and I'rn not a.preacher or a politician or any things that takes from people that they accept." And so if they don't be-— lieve me, I don't blarne thern. I under- stand- Dl\/I: They got their choice- SR: I say but I do have sornething to offer that they don't have. If they can feel that it's true rnaybe they can find a place with rne, not for Ine- If they got a place for Inc, I got a place for thern- Like Jesus-.-I go to prepare a place for you. 92 MT CONVE RSATION wITH JOHN HINDS AUGUST 18, 1991 SAN F RANCISCO. CA John Hinds: I'm a good friend of Sun Ra... Ivlercer Ellington: Oh yeah- JH: ....and he's an admirer of yours and he has been a little under the weather lately and. - ._ ' ‘ ’ IVIE: VVe11, you give him my best regards because I used to hang with hirn all the tirne- Especially when he was first forrning his group around about...I guess about twenty five years ago- I always admired his‘, what he was doing and his style and the fact that he was so defi_nately striking out on his own to get a different identifi- cation than I'1’1OSt people. 93 CONVERSATION WITH Jol-IN HINDs DAVIS. CALI!‘-‘ﬁlth! IA OCTCDBE R 29, ‘I988 Sun Ra: I'm sorry. Took up your (John Ore) tirne. John Hinds: Great! It's been too long. SR: It's corne to a place (where) some people are rny friends and some are my enernies- JI-I: It's just great to hear you though. I rnean, it's been about a year and a half. SR: VVell, we're rnoving forward. JI-I: Oh, I know you're Inoving forward all the tirne. It's like all over the world- Now you're here. SR: VVe've been getting to a place (where) not all Inusicians can play with me in this band. I don't care how good they are or how long I've been l<now—- ing thern- They just ain't going to fit. That's it. And I'rn not going to fight it. I'm not going to try and change thern. I'll get somebody else. JI-I: You're rnusic is so fantastic. lVIusic—- ians should be lining up to play with you. SR: Well, he's (John Ore) a dead man. He just say he ain't got no feeling. Any-— body got no feeling is dead. He worried about his wife. He wasn't born with no Wife. Peter Hinds: VVho's this now? SR: John Ore- He's supposed to play his 94 instrurnent regardless. He just say he ain't got no feeling. Anybody without feeling is a dead rnan- JI-I: Yeah, that's true. SR: People got feeling- They listen to the rnusic. He's a rnusician. He can't listen? It's corne down to the bottorn line. I'rn not unhappy about anything. I'rn playing happiness. Got a world full of trouble and it ain't rny trouble- I'rn not Worried about it. I'rn trying to tell people there is such thing as happiness. I got some- one on that bandstand who's unhappy personally and otherwise. They get in rny way- I played Inore bass than hirn. JI-I: I heard that. (JH and PH laughs as Sun Ra chuckles) But you play more bass than anybody. You're the best bass player anyway- (Sun Ra laughs) You know? You just play bass and swing the whole house down- SR: I-Irnrn hrnrn. JI-I: As far as I'rn concerned- SR: The band too. They all perked up when I began to play the bass. JI-I: No kidding. SR: The way he ought to be playing. JI-I: Yeah, that's true. I know that's what you're paying h.irn—hired him for. That's what he's here for- 95 SR: But we did two nights without hind. JH: Really? SR: And standing ovations. Seattle-.. J}-I: He didn't make it‘? SR: (Indicates no) Problern.-.I-Ie got a lot of problems- There's some people can't be...They can't be helped. I don't care what you doing. I was talking to a girl last night. She said that was true- Some people who are friendly, she tried to help thern but they couldn't be helped. She said she had to turn thern loose. I said, yeah it's reached that point. A lot of people who need help have been helped by people who are kind and who are spiritually awake. And they just took it for granted. Now, they want to be free and out there by thexnself against the whole world, against the Cosmos and think they can survive without those of us who are trying to help thern. Let thern be like that. I'm not going to try to-..Five billion people on this planet and sornewhere sornebody needs rne. JH: You see a lot of thern tonight and they know it. They love that rnusic- They know what you're talking about. Honesty. How much do they get these days? That's at a premium. playing sincerely- JH: Yeah, sincerity too is at a premium- SR: I don't have no unintelligible, no 96 problern. I'In dealing with something else there. I don't have to do that. If everybody in the world did that you wouldn't have any problem. But you got a lot ofaproblern. You got a lot of problern. You. got a _lot of pride, lot of wars. I really shouldn't have sent for hirn ‘cause I got my other bass player up there that doesn't know as II1LlCl’1' but he fits. Ore can play but he got thern other things in the way. Something is always in the way. ’ JH: Personal blockage, personal pro- blerns. That's too bad- SR: He draws negative things to hirn- JH: Some people do that- SR: They draw that to thern like rnag - nets . And if something nice come along and they don’ t even respect it - JI-I: They don't recognize it. I've known people like that- Don't recognize it if it bit thern on the..- SR: Unintelligible. You see, and I turn hirn loose and then he be calling me up five or six tirnes a day. ‘Cause he's really alone, you know. And he feels that and then he calls rne up and I say I'll try hirn again. He done play for top people, you know. He one of the top premium bass players but he got that other stuff in there that's bogging hirn down. It's terrible. J}-I: That is terrible. I hope it's not any- 97 thing like a real self destructive kind of tendency. SR: Each rnusician has got to give. And they different frorn other men. They for- tunate, you know. Creator think unintel- ligible think about everything else but to give. And then they take it away from thern and they be rnost rniserable. At this point I give everybody a chance that I'm supposed to and then I'm going to keep rnoving- I don't have tirne to be doing that because the world is on a precipice, you know- As I see it, it can go either way- One way or the other and the people be elirninated. It's like the Pope said six rnonths ago that every-— body on this planet is in danger of gett- ing elirninated. Every man, woman and child. He said nothing about no Jesus. He said it is in danger. I said it too. UN (United Nations) say so. The church has said. They been preaching the end of the world a long tirne. At one tirne it seem a fantasy, a joke- Ain't no joke now. ‘Cause that gerrn warfare can kill people without thern even suspecting it. They don't even need no atornic bornb right now. That a thirnblefull of can kill about maybe one hundred thousand people or more. A fellow who unintelligible said, he's in sorne part of the Arrny- I-Ie say they teaching thern that there no defense against the gerrn warfare if you can't put on the gas Inask ‘cause it eats through skin. Any part of the body. Go in there and it keeps on eating. It does not stop. So then planet facing annihilation. Some people seem to be just unintelligible. Self destruct. Really, it not about thern being 98 against anybody else. They're against their own self. They don't respect them- selves, in a sense- They really be finding if they against other people (that) they really secretly against theniselves- And they got no confidence, no spirit. JI-I: That's true, it really is- SR: That's bad. JI-I: It's a waste... SR: It's a shame. PI-I: How you feeling? SR: I'm feeling all right. As long as I'm playing and doing what I'm supposed to. A lot of mistakes. They don't know no- thing- You'd think they know but they out there and they need some rnusic‘. They need sorne Inusicians, sorne rnen together who doing sornething and they be inspired to do something, sornething worthwhile- But if they don't see it, they going to be out there doing all kind of things that self destruct. JI-I: It's terrible, all this crack stuff and on the drug side of it. SR: And the Rap stuff and everything. They be singing their life and their life ain't too good and they sing it and that maximize and rnake it.-. JI-I: l\/lore. SR: Yeah, they add more sorrow to 99 thernselves . JH: Reenforce that sorrow- That's so true. SR: (Indicates yes)...I don't know. That's a strange person- He (John Ore) won't leave rne alone- I just go out and gets rne another bass player and then he will call rne up- See if I be playing or re- hearsing or rehearsing (and) all that. He really needs rne but I got another bass player over there-..he doesn't know as much but... JH: VVho's that? SR: Narne Phillip. VVe1l, he waiting- He's in New York waiting for rne to send for hirn. But usually I use two bass players anyway but the bus we travelling in is srnall, in a sense. It's just a sleeper bus. It doesn't have...It ain't got no roorn for no two basses. JI-I: That would take up another. . - SR : Yeah , really . PI-I: That's Carl LeB1anc on guitar? SR: Yeah, I sent all the way to New Orleans and got hirn. But Bruce (Ed- wards) plays well but he's not as aggressive as Carl. Carl projects more. You can hear hirn. Bruce plays sort of sentirnental or sornething but he really playing . JI-I: I know what you mean about that 100 aggresive kind of player- SR: He really couldn't reach people personality wise- He sound _alright on record and everything but it's just the way..-I've had a band where everybody fits and contributing. I don't have as many pieces as I usually use- JI-I: Yeah, not out here. SR: But the people out here be appreciat- ing...'Cause it's hot jazz, you see- They don't hear no hot jazz. They hear the cool jazz all the tirne. J}-I: That's true, too cool, cold (Laughs)- That's nice (Referring to colorful fabric Sun Ra is holding) too. I mean, you always have new things, you know. SR: Yeah, I have to create, you know. Create with colors and costumes. I feel better. JI-I: You're such a rare persorithough, —you know- You're so creative- It's just corning out every second and every direction. It's quite arnazing, you know and inspirational. And that's the kind of people you need- SR: Right, it's energy- VVe playing energy and good. feelings- It's sornething else- JI-I: And this is beautiful. I've never seen any of this stuff before. SR: I bought this in Gerrnany- 101 JI-I: That fabric? SR: This, yes. JI-I: Beautiful fabric. SR: And VVisteria (Judith I-Iolton) .rnade this. And if the place was big enough she would have been here tonight but I thought the stage Wasn't (large enough). JH: Yeah, very tight. —.——:-2:-.——.1_j-—._.—¢—_1-—-.—_—-.1j—————_1——.:.——j.-.—.—————j_.—._::_—_.:—.j._——_._——.:. SR: Unintelligible John (Ore) you see, 4 he's of another kind of generation. They was really, younknow, Bop and all that. They was unintelligible and Kings and Queens but this is another story though- This is not Bop, this is sornething else. _ It's notfnogperiod rnusic. See, ihe's play- ing the period rnusic. For that particular unintelligible. It's like Bop, that's a per- iod rnusic. It's lirnited. .—-1--——.j——.j.:..——.—....__j_._j-——..——j~._..:.———.——._1.---:—...-.—.—_j_.—j-—_———.:___._——_—.1 JI-I: I got a card from Ronald VVi1son who said he visited everybody in Philadelphia but you Weren't there. He saw everybody. SR: Yeah, but I gave hirn-I tried to help hirn too but...Good rnusician but sorne rnen don't fit with rne. JI-I: I know that's so‘ true, you know- I know it's so special- Sorne people... SR: They got to be sociable first. Sorne 102 musicians are not socialable- Unfortunate. John Ore is not socialable- JH: Yeah, that's a shame. That's a real liability in a big band I'rn sure of that. And you would know that better than I'll ever probably know that because you have such experience- But I know that rnuch. SR: VVelI, he's too conservative, you know- I don't think conservative people belong in this band ‘cause there ain't nothing righteous about rne, you know. I keep on telling the world I'rn evil and wicked so a righteous person ain't got no business in this band- ‘Cause they always Want to be right, you know and I'rn not dealing with right. That's not my departrnent- Like I just told John .Ore: Ain't nobody right but God or" unintelligible suppose. So he's supposed to judge things by that standard- Let God be righteous. VVe have to be What we have to be. VVe have no business trying to be like God. The only rnen— The righteous one is in the cenrietary and he can't do nothing wrong and he can't think nothing wrong. As lon.g as he walking around here he's not right-— eous. In the first place he's in an animal body- That's what his body is, an anirnal body- Is nothing but an anirnal body. l\/Iaybe one day he have another kind- Right now he have to eat rneat. I-Ie be talking about eating on rneat but he's n’1ade out of rneat and then he be eating his self you might say ‘cause if he don't get the proper kind of food his body begins to eat the rneat. So then he can't 103 say he eating no rneat- If he don't eat properly every day his body begins to eat the rneat. So he's still eating some meat. ‘Cause it's the anirnal body- Animal body needs the meat. Of course you have to be careful what kind you eat because if you eat some of that rneat it might makes you rnore anirnal like rnentally and vicious. Animals are vicious. Ain't nothing good about them. I see these nature pictures and these anirnals are terrible, ruthless, dog eat dog- Even eat a bird with the feathers on. They don't take the feathers off- JI-I: Yeah, it's just whoosh and they're gone. I know, it's really-.- SR: Pitiful. JI-I: Yeah it really is. It's just that. SR: Then rnan got some sense- Sorne people like they were worried about those whales. Now that was good- They rescued thern. That was nice. They spent a lot of rnoney to rescue two whales- Now, if two rnen had been out there they'd have let thern die. JI-I: (Laughs) That's what I was just thinking. SR2’ They figure they can take care of theyselve. JI-I: (Laughs) Yeah,‘ that's right. You rnake it back on your own- . SR: I'rn...VVell, it's just full’ speed ahead- 104 I just had John Ore. You see, got to do something about hirn. JI-I: Yeah, he seerns kind of downhearted. I could see hirn up on the stand- SR: Just pay hirn to send hirn back. I did that in New York. I paid hirn one night not to play at Sweet Basil- Said you can go horne. Yeah, because I'rn moving forward. I got certain bass fig- ures I want to play. In fact a fellow all the Way frorn Egypt and Was telling me about my bass hand. All the way from Egypt last night. JI-I: Really? Last night? SR: Last night he showed up and he was saying that you got that bass hand. All the way in Egypt. And that was about six, seven years ago and he was talking about my bass hand. JI-I: VVel1, I rnean it's just legendary- I rnean really, I rnean there's no one who can do it even...There's very few people who can even approach that, you know. And no one who can do it like you so I rnean you got your own thing. So de- veloped it's just incredible, you know. People should benefit by listening a little more. SR: I worry I get top players too (and) I be playing strange chords. JI-I: You find that throws some people off sometimes when you alter them a little bit and change?... 105 SR: VVel1, the guitar player, the way I'rn playing, they have to invert the chord a certain way and that's not in the book- JI-I: Yeah, that's the advanced studies. SR: So if they know the book...They have to have another kind of ear like I got. I hear other things that are not part of this dimension. All the time I'rn listening. I listen all the tirne. And people in the band.-.But they listen too. But sornetirne things happen and I say, "Did you hear that?" Strange sounds. Like when we went to Russian (Russian River, California. North of San Francisco). VVaitress came up (and) she said sorne—— thing like...it's like here it is. Unintelli— gible everytirne she would corne out and give unintelligible she would say here it is or I have to unintelligible time to go or let her go-..sornething barn! In this Russian (Russian River). And I asked unintelligible, "VVhat did she said?" She told everybody that. Sometime she'd holler, "One to go" or-..I can't-..She just said three words. VVe1l, when she cantie over to rne she said four words. I asked Buster (Srnith), "Did you hear that? Did you hear what she said?" (He replied) "No." Unintelligible, did you hear— (Someone asked Sun Ra) , "VVhat she saying?""A1'l they heard was the three Words. They "didn't hear the’ fourth Word." I'rn‘ asking What did she say? She said, "Let herigo or one to go." That's not it- I'd remember if I heard it. She said three words. Every time she'd put a plate down there she would say it. "I-Iere itis." No she 106 didn't say here it is. Sornething about go. Vvell, I just walking (in) and sitting down to order-.-l\/Iarshall (Allen), what did that waitress say everytirne she would give sornebody some food? The last restaurant we was in- Did she say here it is? Or let it go or one to go? The last restaurant we was in. You don't know? Every time she put a plate down she said it. It was sornething about go- One to go- No, didn't say that. Didn't say let it go. I'm going through the alphabets. Jackson always rernernbers. Tell Jackson to come here. Ivlar shall Allen: Jackson . James Jackson: Right here. SR: You know, when the waitress, when- ever she'd put the plate down, what did she say? She'd always say-..She didn't say one to go. She had go in there. The last restaurant we was in- JJ: That little, alrnost cabin like place. SR: Every tirne she put a plate down there what did I say she say? JI-I: Another to go? Unknown voice: She say Oh God? SR: No, one to go. She put the plate down there, boorn! She didn't say here it is. She said sornething else. Eddie Gale: It's good or sornething like that? 107 SR: No, sornething go- You see, they can't even remember it- VVe11, in the car I told you about it. UV: I remember you telling me about it. SR: I told you what she said. The fourth word when I rnentioned that. I hadn't told hixn the fourth word yet. I'rn trying to remember the third- Somebody in the band—Buster (Srnith), what that waitress say every time she put a plate down (at) the last restaurant we ate (at)? VVhat she say? Tirne to go or here it is to go or something. VVhat did she say? Noel (Scott), you sitting at the table. Noel Scott: There you go. SR: There you go. NS: There you go and then she said... SR: I believe she said (Interrupting NS)- Now, I ain't told thern that. I'rn talking about thern three words- Yeah, she'd put it (the food) out, there you go- Every tirne and one unintelligible (and she) would shout there you go in front of somebody and I rernernbered that- I would listen at her, see, while I was doing sornething else- I always be listen- ing. I'rn like the animals in the forest, I'rn always listening‘- And when I hear a strange sound I listen even Inore. Now, they didn't hear that- They just sitting right at the table. Buster (Srnith) and he was sitting right at that table and she said it just as -loud when she say there you go- And then she said ‘some- 108 thing else, one word- And I said, "Did you hear her? Did you. hear what she said?" A.nd they both said no. Now, that's what I say with people. They're not listening- They should listen- She put the plate out (and) she say, "There you go God." That's what she said- I tried to make it sornething else- She say, "There you go God-" She didn't say it soft but they weren't listening- They didn't hear that- They just heard there you go. But people should listen ‘cause all the tirne Creator be speaking to thern. He got a twenty four hour station that be bearning the force. Bearning and bearning and bearning a.nd they won't listen. Definately rnan got that, he got it too- l\/Ian always be irnitating the Creator. His governrnentsv said they based on it. He definately got cornputers and everything where he be listening to people all the time. And the way he looks at thern is through people's eyes. He can take over a person any tirne and look right at thern and talk right. to thern with their own tongue and don't even know they're talking. Definately- I've had experiences like that. I know one tirne Pat Patrick was talking to rne and he said well, I (Sun Ra) said sornething about, "V\/ell, I don't think...It ain't wise for people to be worshipping God or Satan." And Pat said, glad you said that." That's right. And then when I asked hirn about it two years later Why'd he say that, he say he didn't say nothing like that. He insisted he did not say it but if he didn't say it, sotnebody used his tongue- And all the time you have to 109 be careful. I had a teenager that came to Ine in Harlem and say, "Sun Ra, I'rn God-" And I didn't say he wasn't- How do you know? I just say, "Good evening God. So nice of you to visit Ine." And I didn't have the slightest idea that he wasn't telling rne the truth because you never know- I was talking to another fellow one day and he definately had to be God. He was «talking sorne things that wouldn't no Inan never talk. He say, "Yes, today I had me a nice tirne. I saw a beautiful Rose and I was unin- telligible and I looked at it. It“ was so beautiful and then I went down into the Rose. I kept going down and down and the nectar was sweet too- I.went on dovvn." Now, that wasn't hirn talking. I-Ie- described everything about the Rose. I-Iow abeautiful it was, how sweet the nectar was and all that. You have to watch it. And one time the saxne person he say, "You see that inansion across the street? Right across the river, the East River? How'd you like that?" I. said, "'VVell, that's_ a rnansion. I ain't got no money to get it-" (He replied), But if you want it all you have to do is just say so and come with me and we go across‘ the street and you can move in now." I say, "I‘In not going over there.‘ Because the first _.place I don't know those people over there and I'm not~going over there talking about they can Inove now”, rm going to take over the rnansion." (He responded), "But you can do it.~ And you can have it. Corne over with-—rne and ‘I'll show you. They waiting for you." I wouldn't go- But what‘ would happen if I had gone over 110 there? I probably would have gotten it. Because the whole thing is under control of sornebody else- Ain't nobody here that got no freedorn on this planet- They don't have none. But they like to think so- But really, they should face facts.‘ They don't have any. They have to corne to a know~ ledge of the truth- And what is the truth? You see, they always say that. It's dope- You see, that's what truth is, it's dope. ‘Cause when the police get the dope on you he the truth- So they got to deal with these words. See, these words is what got people rnessed up. And they be talking about the truth all the tirne and their children getting a lot of truths serurn or truth dope ‘cause truth is dope- The police got and get the dope on thern. He put thern right in jail. So then some- body has rnade the word truth equal" to dope. And that's the reason the children, the teenagers they looking for dope. They looking for truth and soInebody's giving them all the truth they want so they can be free- In other words, the dope rnakes thern free. And people got to go to school and learn the words ‘cause whatever's out there is testing thern- See what they going to do if- Just like giving a child sorne toys- Do what they want withi thern. That's what this is. They rnessi-ng_ with the hydrogen bornb- They send all that to Inan and they seeing what is he going to do with it? That's all it is. They trying to see what is he going to do with it? So they give hirn a piano and what you going to do with that‘? And horn, what you going to create? And they watching to see what are you going to create? They 111 They interested in nothing but creation. VVhat are you doing that they haven't done? That's what they looking at- But this planet got a glorious——It's Wondeful that they can achieve things because if they start something that thern forces ain't never seen before or heard before, they'll help them. But they might have put in a lot of tirne, you know. They have to turn loose a lot of things. Got to pay for it. It belongs to thern. They have to pay for it- Like a big‘super—— rnarket- To get what you vwantgyou cash in your chips and get=ready* to leave the planet but you don't have to. It's a lot of places in the Bible where sorne vrnen-'- They say a body got to die but the ‘Bible say two didn't. They didn't taste "death- ' One was narned Enoch, (the) other Elijah- The book said they did not die. But yet rnen still insist that in tirne everybody got to die and here you got a book that says two didn't? They should believe that- So they got a pro- blern. All the nations are in there- They in trouble. l\/Ian told. rne last night, this in Portland, he said, "You ought to be on the UN- You should be part of the UN." And then another one told rne in VVashington DC,‘ say, "You should run for Vice President-" I said I already got a job. I'In assistant to the Creator- I'.rn the Vice Creator. I'rn telling and I'm putting it out there barn! Like that. Just like that John Ore- The Creator sent hirn back and I say, "You know, unintelligible turn you loose and don't you ever call or speak to rne again because if you don't need rne I don't need you- If you don't care nothing 112 about rne I don't care nothing about you. People have to learn how to respect leaders. And if they don't respect rne I'm not going to respect thern. That's it for rnan. Now they got a choice. I told hirn, I say, "VVell, it's a one sided bargain be- cause .if I need you and you don't need rne then it's one sided bargain John C)re." If you don't needlrne then I can replace you with soineone who does- You got five billion people on the planet and you taking up some space for soxneone who needs rne. I-Ie talking about he didn't have no feeling- VVell, he's dead then. A person without feeling is already dead. I don't want no dead rnen around rne. Because you see, they always going to think negatively. They going to think negatively and I'ni seeing that. Sorne people-A fellow, a rnan told rne frorn Detroit, once he was a negative rnan. I-Ie caine to New York, he didn't rnake it in New York and he went back to Detroit- But he told rne he was a neg- ative rnan-_At that tirne I was listening but I didn't understand. But Egyptians did call sorne rnen naysayers- Ancient Egyptians called thern naysayers- That is they always was negative, everytirne. l\/Ioses was a naysayer. He haclto be. He rnade Ten Commandments with thall shall not and didn't rnake one that said thou shall- Commandments was supposed to be positive. You tell people what to do- Do this, do that- But no thall shall not, thou shall not, thou shall not. No good- Sorne people was on the air the other day and they was talking about God. And one wornan asked the man where do you think all this carne from 113 T then if, you know, there is no God? Then he said, "VVel1, where did God corne frorn?" Good question. Because there is no answer you know. A person can't really say there is no God because they can't ‘know that unless they're God- Unintelligible before God- But even they can't say there no God- In the future rnaybe God won't corne to be untill the year_ 2000 something. I rnean if he came to be way back there he corne to be to—— Inorrow, you see. So you still can't say that since you don't know all about the future. You can't say that there is no (God). I mean a reasonable person wouldn't do that because if there's not one in the past you can't say there won't be one in the future- You can't say that. If God showed up in the past without a rnother or father and Without any begin- ning he can do it again. And he can also go into another kind of state where he doesn't exist to us and corne back when- ever he wants to. As durnb as rnan is he ain't Inade no atornic bornb and—I-Ie don't know nothing about that. Some- body else is doing this. l\/Ian just didn't jurnp and do that- l\/Ien had to go and give up their wives, their hornes and everything and study, study, study. Every step o_f the way, everything we got invented, sorne rnan had spent some tirne. Give up everything. He paid the. price- And people didn't realize how rnuch tirne they put in. I put in a lot of time on my rnusic- VVhile others are asleep I be thinking about the future and what I should use out of all the millions of songs- VVhat should I use to really reach people, to delight the 114 people- I have to pick that song- I have to pick the right key, I have to pick the right rhythrn, everything has to be pure- That's it. Got to be pure. And purity begets purity, you see. But you don't have too many pure people- In fact, I always wonder what d:id God want from people? ‘Cause I saw them go to church and (be) faithful and all that and then they died. I was a sub teenager (and) I just couldn't understand what did God want? I-Ie letting these people die to serve hirn and faithfully and selflessly and they still dying- I say, well, what does he want? Out of people, what does he want? And I said I'd find out what does he want? And I found out. He wants a pure hearted person- Nothing else. Nothing else. But he never could find one- That's what the Bible said.‘ Find rne a rnan who is just. Unintel- ligible find rne one and that's what it says. And this rnan, was Diogenes, he was walking around with his lantern looking for one. VVay back there he looking for one honest rnan in the broad old daytirne with a lantern looking for one. So, you see, they still goes- Be- cause see, first they got to be honest with thernselves- They start there. l\/Iost rnen aren't honest with thernselve. All or most of them. They say they want this and they want that but really, they don't want it. Sornebody has taught them to want things. It ain't thern want- ing it. It's what they been brainwashed by their families, the church, the school, their friends, rnothers and fathers. They been brainwashed and really they want what? They want thern to and they never 115 n think about what they really need. That's the problem. And then they should think about what they need. Because what they going to do is end up in a box by thern- selves. VVithout mother and without father and without any of those things. They'll be all by thernself. So they should think about what they going to need. They should think about that- And all that other stuff ain't going to help thern down in that box- But they never even think about they going down in that box. Don't let it touch their rnind. But they should. They need to protect thernself on a spiritual level. VVith has nothing to do with righteousness. Because they can get out of that box if they know what's happening. They can get out- Nature teaches that. Them worrns get over in their cocoon, you might say it's a box, they all in there all hernrned up. They can get out and when they get (out)- They make their own wings and every- thing. They're (their) own creators. And they take that and they be making that silk. VVork, Work, Work. All by thernselves in there. They must not get no food. They over there in their co- coon. And they work and work and work and the next thing you got some silk and the next thing you know, they come out of that cocoon. Nature then teaches you that you can get out of a prison house. Like a coffin. It teaches and that worrn destroys it's own self to rnake hisself. So rnan can do, ghe can do the same thing but he's too busy with these other little things like their clothes and their money and that. And if they corne back here a thousand years 116 from today, thern clothes will be old fashioned- Everything they ever——The lan- guage rnight not be even spoken- And everything. The churches might not be there. It will be a whole different thing- Right now, you take a rnan rnove him to the year 3000- Barn! I—Ie'd be lost. I-Ie'd be lost because no telling what they be doing- You got thern teenagers down there. Thern sub teenagers, they don't think too rnuch of the grown people. Now, (what are they) going to do about that? I read in Argentina the teenagers, where they plotted to kill their parents. And did, they did do it. Say they wasn't: doing nothing. VVel1, you know, in Har- lern they had a set date where they were going to kill older people and parents and black people in authority- In I-Iarlern. The only thing that stopped it was a shoe shine rnan heard thern discussing what they was going to do. They stopped it- But I saw them rnarching up the street- They be (there) late at night, rnaybe about three or four hundred and I told you they ain't got nobody, older person over there (that know) what are they doing? She said, "Oh, they just together." They's being together alright. To kill their parents- And if they did that then it went underground. But they probably doing it in other cities too unintelligible the hour to strike. Get rid of them. They say they ain't doing nothing. And in New York there I met some kids where the teenagers set some grown people on fire. In Philadelphia some of them, they be travelling in Broad Street unintelligible but nine to ten or twelve together in Philadelphia and who's that? 117 Sornebody in the band heard one of thern say...an older man, a fellow rnugged hirn. He told the other fellow, "Yes you know, unintelligible he wasn't supposed to be out here late at night like that by his- self. He should know better than that. So I just took»his srnoney and I kicked the rnotherfucker- He shouldn't have been out here by hisself that late at night. So they didn't go and say help hixn. I-Ie shouldn't have been out there so look at that." And grown people sitting around like business as usual- Don't realize and they don't never-talk to thern teenagers and sub teenagers. They need to talk to thern- They need to buddy buddy with thern, see what they doing ‘cause they ain't. They dis- satisfied with the world. They think they can rnake a better world, but they can't really. (To be continued in SRR 34) 118 T‘-7-vx-vtq_V"l GREAT PYRAMID v SUN RA AT THE ‘DECEMBER 1971 HARTMUTOTERRTN CAIRO, EGYPT PHOTOS: lvll. LIL! . IT WAS SARAH MCLAWLER AND RICHARD OTTO. I WAS PLAYING WITH THEM AT THIS TIP TOP (CLUB) IN BROOKLYN AND SO IN THE DAYTIME, WE ONLY WENT A COUPLE OF TIMES. WE WENT THERE AND RECORDED (INFINITY OF THE UNIVERSE) ‘CAUSE SUN RA HAD NEVER PLAYED A HAMMOND ORGAN BEFORE. SO WE DID THAT (AT) THE TIP TOP AND I USED MALLETS BECAUSE I WAS A LITTLE BIT TOO CLOSE TO THE MICROPHONE. THE WAY WE HAD TO SET THE MICROPHONE UP SO THAT YOU COULD GET THE . . . WELL, THE ORGAN IS SO POWERFUL SO WE COULDN'T SET THE MICROPHONE TOO CLOSE TO THE ORGAN BUT WE HAD TO SET IT AT A PLACE WHERE WE WOULD GET IOHN. MARSHALL, PAT AND RONNIE BOYKINS, SO THAT WE COULD GET TH EM IN MICROPHONE RANGE. AND TO DO THAT I COULDN'T MOVE MY DRUMS. THE BANDSTAND WAS SO SMALL THAT I COULDN'T MOVE MY DRUMS SO WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO RECORD WITHOUT THE DRUMS TAKING OUT EVERYTHING. BUT IT WORKED OUT OK. TOMMY HUNTER * APRIL 28, 1998 wHEN I l.EFT I GUESS THAT‘ wAs THE END oI= RECORDING AT THE CHOREOGRAPHEWS WORKSHOP AND THEN WHEN I LEFT CLIFFORD JARVIS IoINED THE BAND AND I WANT TO TELL vou SOMETHING. WHEN I CAME BACK AND HEARD THAT BAND, WHEN I (AME BACK FOR CHRISTMAS THEY WAS PLAYING AT THE VILLAGE cA'rE AND I HEARD THAT BAND. IT wAs FANTASTIC. IT wAs Ius1' LIKE A souND wAvE. TOMMY HUNTER APRIL 13, 1998
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-33
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 34 (July, 2001)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2001-07-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: ‘ r v .. .. .. YOU CAN'T LEAVE NOTHING AT HOME. NOT THAT YOU REALLY WANT. WE GOT ROBBED FROM INSIDE BEFORE WE LEFT. THE R UNKMER WE HAD WATCHING A : nous: STOLE sun: srou TI-IE ‘ was. A NEW SET or DRUMS sun RA BOUGHT .. . . LAM». sn . .. .. I-IE"D sun AROUND 3 ABOUT 10 on 12 runs. EVER shit: we Movao INTO THE HOUSE. I III: EDDIE? GRAGR GOT HIM. YOU OW. I-IE CAN'T HELP HIMSELF. WENT BAGR HE WOULD HAVE MOVED THE WHOLE DAMN HOUSE OUT BY THE TIME WE GOT BAGR. JOHN GILMORE ~ ocronan 31. was THE TIME .. . . IF WE HADN"T A ~ SUN RA RESEARC ufj - ‘j T R 1 R R ‘I’ TOMMY HUNTER . . . . . . . . .. 1 JAMES HERNDoN . . . . . . . . .. 11 SUNRA.... . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..16 HARTMUT GEERKEN . . . . . . . . 23 JOHN GILMORE . . . . . . . .. 31 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 34 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1998 $5.00 » OUTSIDE U.S.: $6.00 EDITORS NOTE: THE SUN RA CONVERSATION WITH IOHN HINDS OCTOBER 29, 1988. WHICH APPEARED IN ISSUE 33 WILL BE CONTINUED IN AN UPCOMIN...
Show more‘ r v .. .. .. YOU CAN'T LEAVE NOTHING AT HOME. NOT THAT YOU REALLY WANT. WE GOT ROBBED FROM INSIDE BEFORE WE LEFT. THE R UNKMER WE HAD WATCHING A : nous: STOLE sun: srou TI-IE ‘ was. A NEW SET or DRUMS sun RA BOUGHT .. . . LAM». sn . .. .. I-IE"D sun AROUND 3 ABOUT 10 on 12 runs. EVER shit: we Movao INTO THE HOUSE. I III: EDDIE? GRAGR GOT HIM. YOU OW. I-IE CAN'T HELP HIMSELF. WENT BAGR HE WOULD HAVE MOVED THE WHOLE DAMN HOUSE OUT BY THE TIME WE GOT BAGR. JOHN GILMORE ~ ocronan 31. was THE TIME .. . . IF WE HADN"T A ~ SUN RA RESEARC ufj - ‘j T R 1 R R ‘I’ TOMMY HUNTER . . . . . . . . .. 1 JAMES HERNDoN . . . . . . . . .. 11 SUNRA.... . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..16 HARTMUT GEERKEN . . . . . . . . 23 JOHN GILMORE . . . . . . . .. 31 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 34 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1998 $5.00 » OUTSIDE U.S.: $6.00 EDITORS NOTE: THE SUN RA CONVERSATION WITH IOHN HINDS OCTOBER 29, 1988. WHICH APPEARED IN ISSUE 33 WILL BE CONTINUED IN AN UPCOMING ISSUE. HUNTER CCFIVE R$ATIC)I*l{ ‘ wrri-I PETER I-IIl~lI>S JULY 15. ‘I998 Peter Hinds: There's one thing you rnen—- tioned last time about a_s-axophonist with Charles l\/Iingus who wanted to meet .l\/Iarshall (Allen). Was that Eric Dolphy? Tornrny Hunter 2 Yeah . PH: So that was Eric Dolphy. Did he rneet L/Iarshall‘? TH: Yeah, he met lvlarshall. He met hllarshall the sarne tirne that I met Billy Higgins the first tirne. PH: And so what year was this about? '61, '62? . ' - TH: Yeah, it could have been around that tirne. PH: Sounds like it. But it was in New York City. TH: Yeah, and it was at the place called The Playhouse. PH: And they hung out a little bit (and) talked? TH: VVel1, I think Eric Dolphy caxne to lvlarshall. And he canie —- Well, I don't know if Billy Higgins would remember or not but I saw hirn and Billy Higgins together so I just-figured that they carne together. It may not even been that possible ‘cause Billy Higgins was playing there when I went down. I wasn't playing that night and I went .down to see the band and that's when Sun Ra called me up to play. And that's when I rnet (Billy Higgins). The first set I saw Billy Higgins play I said, "Darnn, that looks like me sitting there- playing." And so after it was all over and I met Billy Higgins and he said, "VVow man, you sound like l\/lax Roach." And he said it in front of Sun Ra- And Sun Ra was the one telling rne that try and play like somebody else. You couldn't be like lvtax Roach. And he was telling rne this constantly and Billy Higgins come up say, "Oh, you sound like l\/Iax Roach." (PH and TH laugh). And that was the first time I met Eric Dolphy and the first tirne I saw him. In fact, at that tirne I didn't know who he was. I think that at that time he was playing like Charlie Parker or sornething. I'rn not sure but at that tiirne I don't think he was known. It was before he went with Ivlingus. So‘ I don't know. (He) Inight have been play- ing with Bobby Tirnrnons. PH: Any other Inexnories of Eric Dolphy? TH: No, I saw Eric Dolphy sorneplace. I went with Sun Ra. We went to see Eric Dolphy play sorneplace and I don't re- rnernber where it was. PH: VVhat did Sun Ra think? TH: I don't know. Sun Ra didn't say anything. He just sit there. He very sel- dorn talk about Inusicians except if it was a piano player. Sun Ra was open to all musicians and he would listen and especially if you was playing sornething avante-garde, you know. He scolded me once ‘cause I said something about a 2 saxophone player that I had heard that could play. And next tirne I heard hirn play and I said something to Sun Ra about (like) he plays like somebody just picked up the saxophone and is trying to find some notes or something on it. And what the hell's his name? One of the first avante—garde tenor saxophone players. PI-I: Albert Ayler? TI-I: Albert Ayler. Now, the first time I heard Albert Ayler play he was playing his ass off. And then the next time I heard hirn play, I Inean, he sounded like, he sounded like somebody just picked up the horn and was trying to learn to get a note or something. That was my per- ception. And ‘I had rnentioned that to Sun Ra and he scolded me for that, you know. About if you really don't know what sornebody's doing don't talk about it untill you find out. VVhat you don't understand, don't deface it. He gave me a whole lecture about that. But I don't know if he liked Albert Ayler or not but it's just the idea that I'm going to judge hirn. And he was telling me every- body has their likes and their dislikes and it's natural for you to have your likes and dislikes but if you don't under-— stand, if you dislike it because you don't understand it. and you talk about it, you defacing, something that you don't under- stand and it can have an adverse effect on a person. You don't know it ‘cause you never know who you talking about. And you never know who you talking to and you never know what they going to write about what you- said because you 3 the public, they take you as the public and so be careful about what you say about sornebody and try and understand the person. Try to, you know, instead of just...VVell, he was a little bit Inuch for me but anyway I got chewed out a little bit. So I didn't do that no more. Not in front of Sun Ra. But Sun Ra was the type of person, he never asked rne. He would never ask me about sornebody as rnusical. He would never ask rne Iny opinion about sornebody- He would never do that. In fact, I don't think he asked anybody in the band because everybody was free with giving their opinions, you know. PI—I: He didn't have to ask. TH: He didn't have to ask ‘cause John (Gilrnore) was very opinionated about saxophone and about he saying, "They stealing rny stuf ." PI-I: VVho did he like or dislike? TI-I: VVell, John never really said who he liked or who he disliked- He never really said and I knew he liked Gene Arnnions and I knew that he was influenced by Charlie Parker and who he played like, who his first (influences were) I don't know ‘cause he was in the arrny...But I know his early_saxophone, his style when he first carne with Sun Ra and when you listen to the records you hear Charlie Parker. And that went for Pat (Patrick) and everybody else. Charlie Parker was a deep influence. Well, there was an in- fluence and if you just listen to the re- cords you'll hear phrases and stuff that's you know that it is from Charlie Parker. But he said something about Charlie Par-— ker but he also liked Coltrane but he said that Coltrane was stealing his stuff- And I rnean he would say that. I don't know if he meant it or not be he would say that. But he liked Coltrane. I PI-I: What about all the avante-garde effects? TH: It's hard for me to talk about that ‘cause I know a little bit about it and I know Where it carne frorn. If you really Want to know where it came froxn, it carne frorn l\/Iartshall Allen. VVhen l\/Iar-— shall Allen was with the band, the early band, l\/Iarshall could only solo on the flute and Sun Ra wanted l\/Iarshall to play alto. I\/Iarshall was a flute player. l\/Iarshall couldn't play a solo like every- body else was playing a solo. So Sun Ra insisted on giving hirn a solo- I guess to make hirn get cornfortable doing a solo. And l\/Iarshall developed that systern of playing because that's What he could do. And it seemed like it was OK ‘cause Sun Ra seerned to like it. And the Inore he plays the more Sun Ra liked it and the more solos Sonny gave hirn. So the next thing you know, everybody in‘ the band is developing that. Like Pat Patrick and John and everybody in the band started- doing the sarne thing but they developed their own style. But it Was...actual1y carne from what l\/Iarshall was doing. And I saw that with my own eyes. _PI-I: That must have been pretty shocking to audiences at the time. TH: VVe1l, you know, 1\/Iarshall don't talk about it because 1\/Iarshall, I think, is. he's kind of conservative about his way of playing and what not. And he don't want to take credit and so he doesn't say anything but I was there and I saw the solos, types of solos develop- And, now I don't know who developed the trumpet because when...up in that time that everybody else was started to change the solo technique and solo style, he (Sun Ra) had this trumpet player from lVIont—- gornery, Alabarna (actually Birrningharn) who played like Dizzy (Gilespie) and what "not. PI-I: Are you talking about VValter I\/Iiller? _I-Ie's from Birmingham. TI-—I: He never changed his style- PI-I: You talking about VValter B/Iiller‘? 'I‘I-I‘: VValter l\/Iiller, yeah. Then he had a trumpet player narned Billy. - .VVhat the hell was Billy's last narne? From Chicago. I can't remember his last narne. His first narne was Billy and he carne to New York and he stayed for about two years. Brought his wife and he was playing with us at the time we was playing down at the Bazaar and then he -was I think on the first recordings that we did down at Choreographer’s Vvorkshop. Then he went back to Chicago and he never came back with the band again- And then I guess then that they had this trumpet player that played like I guess you'd say he was from the Louis Armstrong era and he got to be in the band and so trurnpet players changed and then what's his name? He finally killed hisself. He got in a oven. PI-I: Ahk Tal Ebah. TI-I: Yeah, Ebah- PI-I: Yeah, Sun Ra told us that story about that, the oven. That's arnazing. TI-I: I think wehad just Agone to Chicago to play in Chicago and We had a day off and the next thing I know, man, that he had killed hisself. Well, before we left New York he was on a fast. And he had been on a fast six days just eating nuts. So after that incident Sun Ra never said anything about anybody ever fasting any and he was real cold and he wanted to warm up so he got in to the oven. And he was small, you know. So he got in the oven and (laughs) irnagine that. Then after that We got this other trurnpet player. VVell, we had some pretty good trumpet players. There was Al Evans that stayed with the band and then there was another trurnpet player that's from Phila-— delphia. He Went off to play with some _ TI-I: It had to be '64 or '65 ‘cause I left New York in '64. 4:.-——-u:-——.:-——c;:--aunt...-———~:—p——--u——-—.———uu-.—-——————-———.-..-—.———._:-n-cc.--:---..-—j:--— PH: what did Sun Ra think about Sunny Ivlurray‘? ' TH: Sun Ra thought he was good. He often was trying to get Sunny to play with hirn. I don't know if he just said that. . .I-Ie said that Sunny (l\/Iurray) was calling him and wanted a job. According to, you know , like, rehearsal talk. And he was telling us about Sunny l\/Iurray- That he was calling hirn and wanted a job- (Sun Ra said), "See, you druxnrners sit back here and get what's his narne and we got all these farnous drurnrners that want to play with the band-" And he really let us know when Phily Joe Jones wanted to play with the band. He told me, "You see that? You go away to Sweden and all those places and you corne back and you find out that somebody else wants your job." He says, "And Philly Joe Jones is one of the rnasters." (Laughing) Oh boy! I rnean he got into rne on a couple of tirnes about that, Philly Joe Jones- So I told hirn (Sun Ra) about my first experience with Philly Joe Jones. VVell, I had a crush on Carrnen l\/IcRae and she ‘ was playing in Atlantic City and at the meantime he wasiplaying with~—VVhat's the piano player fI‘OII1 Cleveland? He was an orchestra leader. I don't know. He played with Bird. He was arranger. PI-I: Tadd Darneron? TI-I: Tadd Darneron. He was playing with Tadd Daxneron. So I went to Atlantic City and Carmen only carne on twice a night. So we had the whole first set (and) I could go on and and hear sornebody else. So we went by this place and to see Tadd Darneron. Now, I had met Tadd Darneron nurnerous tirnes at Birdland and different places. You know, every chance I saw hirn I'd go up and talk to him and so after the interrnission Tadd Darneron came up and was talking to me and Philly Joe Jones came up and said, and it was the two of us guys together talking about...(Phi11y Joe said), "These two young guys, they sitting here, they just want some dope" and blah,- blah, blah. "That's all they want. They not interested in our music. They just want some dope." And I don't know how he could say that. I ain't never had no dope in my life and the other saxo—— phone player that I was with wasn't into dope. VVe was just into Inusic and of .course I was around 23 or 24 or sorne- thing like that and Carmen l\/IcRae, I rnean I really dug her. And she had just left the drurnrner Kenny Clarke. So, but she didn't have no eyes (Laughs). PI-I: She didn't have no eyes? TI-I: (Laughs) For rne. PI-I: For you. OK. (Laughs) I was waiting for that. ‘ TI-I: So anyway, that's what happened. So that when we got horne we saw in the newspaper, big headlines in the newspaper: VVorld Farnous Drummer Gets Busted On 9 The VVay To Philadelphia- \7\/ith a half a pound of whatever. And so I told Sun Ra. Sun Ra said, "VVe11, you know, you talk- ing about one thing and I'm talking about a musician and you talking about something else. Everybody has weaknesses." I said, "But Sun Ra, you the one that told us to overcorne those weaknesses and for us to stay‘ in this band we have to overcorne those weaknesses and yet you want to take sornebody in the band that's got those weaknesses already to a point where they're...you know" So he says, "VVe11, you don't know that so hold your reser-— vations untill you know it." But anyway, he talked about, he was...he talked about Philly Joe and John and everybody was ready for hirn to corne in the band. And whether he did or not I don't know ‘cause I was probably in Sweden- But I under- stand that he did play with Sun Ra once or twice- PI-I: What about Ronnie Boykins? He seemed to be pretty bitter about Sun Ra I guess afterwards. TI-I: It wasn't Ronnie Boykins per se- It was his wife. His wife was Danish and she thought he was being walked on- And wornen are like that. They feel that you're being used. And she convinced Ronnie Boykins that he was being used-i by Sun Ra. So then they found out about a tune that Ronnie was supposed to have written and Sun Ra had copyrighted that tune. they was taking Sun Ra to court or sornething like that and that's when Sun Ra stopped putting rnusicians names on the albums. 10 JAMES HER PON (ONVER ATION W BRAD MARKus JJJJJJ 98 Brad 1\/Iarkus: VVhen was the first tirne you had Inet Sonny? Jaxnes I-Ierndon: First tirne I rnet Sun Ra was in the early fifties because he was rehearsing and the chorus, rehearsing the acts and writing music for the _shows at the Club DeLisa. And I was called to work for Red Saunders one day and I rnet him. And I got a chance to play with hirn on the l\/Ionday, the off nights and he was playing piano and with the group. They had a srnall group that played on the nights that Red Saunder‘s band was off. VVe struck up a conversation whenever we had a chance. He liked to talk about rnusic. He liked to talk about doing his own thing in music. And a little bit later he started a group called the Sun Ra Orchestra and he asked rne if I would be a Inernber of it. Now, Robert Barry was his principal drurn—- started and we worked at a place on..'. I can't think of it. Bl\/I: But anyway, the band that was play- ing on the off nights, who was it corn- posed of besides Sonny? JI-I: Chris Anderson was playing alto- He had just corne out of the Lunceford Band- Trurnpet player, Hobart Dotson was play-— ing...Saxophones? VVell sometimes it would be Red's saxophone player. He would corne in and play some of the_ shows and then sometimes it was Johnny I-Iowser.- In fact, more often it was John I-Iowser because he was a fantastic reader. 11 He was a good show rnusician. He -knew how to play shows. Chris and all of thern, I was the only one in there who didn't know what he was doing. They led rne around. But it was a lot of fun. It was a doggone good experience ‘cause it paid off in the long run. But getting away from the DeLisa gave Sun Ra a chance to do his thing. ‘Cause he would come in With, you know, a light sketch for a piece that he wanted to play and We'd sit down and get it together and he'd work out a format on how he Wanted it played and then we'd play it at the club. And it was a nice little club on 64th and Cottage Grove. It was down in the basement and it had been a nightclub for a long time but it had had quite a few different owners. VVhen Sun Ra went in there We went in I think for a short stay and we stayed there for... it was months. A long, long time. We played shows, we played dance music. VVe did a little bit of everything. VVe had some fantastic rnusicians in that group. John Gilinore, Pat Patrick, Robert Barry as I said before, different basses, trom- bone players, trurnpets. B1\/I: Jarnes Scales . JI-I: Scales. He just always had something going and all these rnusicians liked to play because his music was different. And he was easy to play with. He didn't ride roughshod over anybody. He was one of the-nicest bandleaders I ‘have run across. And it was really fun to play with hirn. BIVI: VVhat else do you remember about your days with the Arkestra? 12 How long did you play with Sonny? JI-I: For about three years. Did quite a bit of recording on his label and he had some friends thatiwas helping him along. And he'd get enough money together to 1nake—to do .a session and he'd get the music together, we'd rehearse it and then play it. And then sometimes he'd record Where We're playing. One time at Robert's Show Lounge he made a recording in there. It was nice acoustics and a very, very, very good bunch of musicians at that time. Bl\/I: VVas that released on a record? JI-I: It was released. It was the one that had the tyrnpani solo on the blues- That was one Sunday afternoon We played that. BL/I: That sounds like, maybe, Reflections In Blue. JI-I: I don't rexneniber the narne of the alburn it was on but it was on one of the labels. He had some artist friends that used to draw the cover and. the early ones was real fantastic. A lot of different things that had to do with the things that he talked about- Like Call For All Dernons. And one about a trip to outer space. BIVI: Rocket Number Nine? JI-I: (Laughs) Rocket Number Nine, yeah. BIVI: You used to do that tune with him? J}-I: Somehow or another the music always 13 put you in the mind. That's exactly what had happened. And the one, Call For All Dernons, it sounded like it something corne straight out of hell. BL/I: There's a story that I heard that one time there was a dog on the stage and the dog would not leave, as rnuch music as they played so sornebody thought to play that Call For All Dernons and soon as they started playing that the dog ran off- That's supposed to be a true story- 'JI-I: It has some weird sounds in there- But they were all Inusical, you know. There was nothing out of whack in there at all. Everything, it was just the way it should have been. A BIVI: A lot of things I've read, they say that a lot of what he wrote was very pro- per but sorne people, they just could not play it. There was something in it that was unusual. JI-I: Yeah, it was unusual because a lot of tirnes...VVell, for instance Von Freernan played with us _at one tirne- He'd never rehearsed with the group but he sat down and played the book through with no pro—- blem. He_ said_ it was the oddest rnusic, ~ some of the hardest that he's ever had to play. Especially sight_reading. Sorne guys _had little, few problerns with it because they were used to playing standard type of Inusic, you know.'. And it kind of left thern with a little disadvantage untill they caught on to, whatgwas going on. But by the tirne they sat .in_ a while and rehearsed, unintelligible withthe band and played, :14 they were able to fit right in. Sometimes we'd have two bass players to go along with the two drummers. And he had a lot of special effects. He had a instrurnent called, I think it was the claviolin. BIVI: Right. You seen the instrument? JH: I saw the instrurnent. It had a ethereal sound, like something that you'd expect in outer space, you know. Something you'd never heard before. And a keyboard just like a piano. It was electronic and you could get a lot of different effects out of it. Really outstanding, really fit in with what he was doing. 15 CONVERSATION wrrH PETER I-lll~lDS AUGUST 7, ‘I989 Sun Ra: It's so rnany bad things happening on the East Coast with rnurder and rape- and dope. I need to be sornewhere where it's not too prevalent- ‘ Peter I-Iinds: Yeah, that's true.‘ VVell, you'll be off to Europe anyway. A SR: Yeah, they don't have that in Europe too much. PI-I: Yeah, not yet anyway. Hopefully not ever- SR: VVell, Europe got that culture and everything to hold on to. See, Arnerica don't‘ have anything to hold on to but rnoney and that's why, really, if they - don't have the rnoney they go out. They go to the dope- It's a rich country, at least it seem to be and they don't have no outlet. PI-I: That's very frustrating, you know. SR: Quite so. PI-I: That's right. Not to have a chance, you know. A lot of people don't have a» chance. That's very hard. SR: VVell, it's very difficult and it's get» ting worse. PI-I: VVhat about this 1\/ITV thing, now? I didn't see that but sorneone told me about it and I was really surprised to say the least. How did you hook up with thexn? 16 SR: VVell, Jack Rich is doing, you know, our booking agent, he's doing all this propagating, moving (me) out of the low profile which I didn't really approve of it ‘cause I don't like to do things which I feel is not going to be fruitful for rne- I don't—That the condition this planet is in and I just want to play a low profile, not get in it but actually what I'm doing could alleviate the situation. It's sornething could happen but it's impossible to think that people would change who are listening. It's impossible to think but they have to change or else because a lot of things are happening that very bad that's increasing. Like, Elo's (Ornoe) in the hospital too. PI-1 : E10‘? SR: Yeah. PH: VVhat' s wrong? SR: VVe11, they getting ready to have some specialist tornrnorow to see but actually they say he had a brain turnor ‘cause his head was hurting and been hurting for some rnonths, you know- But it Was hurting so bad, he was rnoan—- ing and groaning until I insisted he go to the hospital. VS/ell, that happened in Flor- ida too and he Went and they examined and they say nothing wrong with hirn so then, but he still had his headaches. So then he comes to Philadelphia, sarne hos- pital again, exazrnination and they still say there was nothing wrong with him. But then I insisted he go to the hospital so A this time the doctor gave hirn a brain scan. The brain scan seerned to indicate 17 that he did have a tumor- But then they ' said it was like a abcess or water on the brain. And then they changed and he seemed to keep on——So he got to have sorne more doctors, rnore specialists to see. But he still got the headaches even though they got a hole in his head and draining the water out of the abcess un- intelligible. He's still having these head—— aches so they got hirn heavily sedated. PI-I: That's terrible. SR: This turnor run clown his head down through his chest, clown to his penis to drain the water out supposedly. But, well, they might have rnade a wrong diagnosis- I don't know. You see, that's the reason another specialist corning in tomorrow. PH: Is this in Philadelphia? SR: Yes. He in a hospital about five or six blocks frorn us, Gerrnantown Hospital. -—un¢—-:2-—---—-n1-s—::¢-—-a-n-----1:--pc---1:-.--..:-—--———-——————-—-——_-—:—¢-o---——s—-—<———:—— PI—~I: VVel1, I hope that Elo gets better. SR: In a sense it's irtnpossibility that this turnor, now he says it's a tumor again, it's what they call a massive turnor. I never heard of that before. There it extends down from the brain on down through a nerve down to the lungs. Instead of—They said if it went down his back he'd be paralyzed. But it occured and went doWn—According to what Jackson is telling me that the doctors said. Now, they having a second opinion tornorrow. 18 We really don't know. His relatives want to take hirn to Chicago- They feel the hos- pital not doing enough for hirn- But see, Elo is very stubborn and they got big signs in the roorn forvhirn not to srnoke and all of them have no matches and he's very upset about that and insisted on smoking so he's causing trouble at the hospital- I've tried to tell hirn he shouldn't be smoking and then the doctors and nurses say no smoking. Everybody who go there he asks for cigarette and all that so, you.know, he's causing trouble. PI-I: That's really unfortunate- I hope he can get better and everything turns out alright. SR: VVe1l, you can't be being causing trouble in a hospital ‘cause you're at their rnercy, you know. Unintelligible to be nice. He pulled a needle out of his arm or ~sorne—— thing and all that kind of stuff and the V nurse got stuck and unintelligible. You know, he can cause problerns- I-Iis relatives calling up threatening to use their guns and things and they from Chicago- Chicago, everything can be settled through a gun so that's causing problerns. Got the doctors scared. So you know, it's everything seern to be converging unintelligible cause con- fusion and trouble so that-ain't no place for to get well or anything- Unintelligible went by there, the hospital treats hirn nice or so what I hear but unintelligible talking about they're not feeding hirn properly- Anyway, it's very unfortunate. PI-I: It certainly is- 19 SR: E1o's very hard headed.‘ I've been telling (hirn) for a long tirne about that srnoking but, you know, he got his own way but he's one of the freedorn boys and I'1'n talking about discipline and pre- cision but he's going the other way. He got trapped by this freedom. That's what it is- ' PI-I: So how long has he been there? SR: I-Ie been down there over a week now. The pain was really great ‘cause he was rnoaning and groaning; so I could hear hirn frorn third floor down to the first floor. He was definately in pain and he still got headaches despite what they've done this far- ‘Cause they don't know anything but chernotherapy or something like that cause it to shrink. Talking about shrinking the turnor. But that's very painful too. He's in trouble. PI-I: VVell, on maybe a happier topic, but how was that concert at the..-Su1:nIner Solstice with Don Cherry? SR: That was nice. Sun didn't shine though ‘till later on during the day. But it was on TV too. PI-I: Really? They broadcast the whole thing? SR: Yeah, well they were unintelligible but they had rne on there and they didn't have Don Cherry on there but they had rne talk-— ing- PI-I: I read a little story about it in the Village Voice and talked about you guys 20 playing in the fog and everything- SR: Yeah, so everything is..-I'rn just look- ing at the situation- The world is getting worse. I definately feel that if people like Inyself are given a chance for people to really see what I'rn playing and hear what I'm talking about it could do something. But there are thousands of people who are saying something else and they don't get a chance. That's what's wrong with the world. They're subrnerged down into ob- scurity and the world needs thern more than ever. But that's the way the story goes so people like Inyselfhave a tendacy now to play the low profile even more so and go to some small town or some small country and stay out of the way. That is what I'd like to do. But because it's very violent, you know. I'rn not .a violent per- son and it's very dangerous too the way people are doing other people and nobody wants to be around anything like that so the best thing when a kingdorn gets like this one is now, the best thing is for people like rnyself to pull out and go somewhere else where it's not like that. Because trying to change people that's over in that violent context is quite diff- icult and dangerous too I would say ‘cause they don't want to listen. PI-I: I-Iey, that's hard.That is hard- SR: They hard headed. They won't listen. PH: I have a friend who's like that, very hard headed and he'll rnake rnistake after Inistake after mistake and he doesn't learn, you know. It's difficult. It's a difficult 21 thing - SR: The Whole world is shaking. Civiliza- tion is shaking and Arnerica can't do any-— thing with it's arrnies just like the hostages (In Iran). That Won"t Work anyxnore so then they need—It cornes dovvn to sornebody talk- ing about things and that have to talk. The right kind of talk can do things. The Wrong kind of talk can do sornething else. So it comes down to words now- VVords- SR: But I've been very discouraged about doing something in this country. People are way behind and yet the government is busy sending things to outer space and all that and people are still ernotionally and still back in the past with those hurnan ernotions- They not keeping up with inventions and things. PI-I: That's true. A lot of people are defin- ately off in their own world. SR: Although Birmingham rnade rne honor- ary county commissioner. PI-I: Is that right? SR: Yes, I haven't got the papers but one of my relatives told me it was in the news~ paper there that they had. And 1\/Iiarni rnade a special Sun Ra Day. A proclamation and every nice. I'll try and send it to you. The rnayor gave it to rne personally- 22 I've read your interview with Bugs Hunter (SRR 32) with great interest. Especially the parts when he speaks of the Arkestra's stay in Egypt in Decernber 1971-. As one of the very few people frorn outside the Arkestra who were with Sun Ra during his two week stay I would like to contribute a few rnore details about this rnagic rnornent in Sun Ra's biography. At a tirne when rny memories were still fresh I published sozrne of what I had witnessed, first in the GerInan—Arab cultural rnagazine Arrnant (Issue 9-1971) and then in the Gerrnan jazz rnagazine Jazz Podiurn (Issue 3-1972). Three years later, in 1975, my book Obduktionsprotokoll (Klaus Rarnrn Publishing) came out. There I wrote in Inuch greater detail on rny experiences with Sunny and the Arkestra- All of these were Written in Gerrnan and the first surnrn-— ery in English was contained in my book Ornniverse Sun Ra (VR/aitawhile 1994) under the title Sun Ra 1\4eets Sun Ra. I don't want to repear what's there but want to add sorne details to what was said before and add some rernarks to Tornrny I-Iunter's interview- I invited Sun Ra in‘ June 1971 to corne to Egypt since I had been living in Cairo since 1966. Sun Ra arrived in Egypt Decernber 7, 1971 corning from his last gig in Copenhagen (Deceniber 5, 1971). As for I-Iunter's report on going into the Great Pyrarnid of Gizeh, the Cheops or Khufu Pyrarnid, there are two possibilities: either Sun Ra clirrnbed up to the King's Charnber twice during his stay in 1971 or there is sorne confusion in I-Iunter's recollections- But the occasion when the lights went off while he was inside the King's Charnber with Sunny must have been during the same ex- cursion I attended- There were definately not 23 tered the pyrarnid. I rernernber very clearly Gilniore (and the difficulties in twisting his- tall body through the narrow holes), I re- rneniber Patrick (with whith whorn I clirnbed one early rnorning some days ago to the top of the Cheops Pyrarnid to watch the sunrise. Norrnally it was forbidden to climb to the top of the pyramid, so I _had to bribe the watchrnan)- I definately rernernber 1_\/Iarshall (and his agility in clirnbing the four foot high steps of the Cheops Pyrarnid), I rernernber Bugs and I-Iadi and maybe there were some others too (Thornpson, Davis, VVilkinson?). I knew the Great Pyrarnid of Gizeh well. I had cornposed a piece for that particular rnagic place in the late '60's entitled In and Out for wind and Electronics- A group of rnusicians with wind instrurnents and gongs had to play on top of the pyrarnid, a heavy electronic sound producing Inachine was po-—- sitioned in the King's Chamber. At a certain rnornent both had to begin according to a score, although they couldn't hear each other- It was a polar cornposition: in / out, death / life, stone / wind, darkness / light..- So I have been inside the pyrarnid very often before I went there with Sun Ra and the rnusicians and knew the way to the Queen's and to the King's Charnber- I guided the group to the entrance of the pyrarnid which is about 45 feet above desert level. The entrance is just a sxnall crack made by grave robbers long ago. A local 'dragornan' (guide) in a ling white -'galabaya' waited at the en- trance (waiting for all the. tourists) and accornpanied us just to get his bakshish- After" entering, a roughly cut narrow tunnel leadstlownwards- The daylight shimmering through the: entrance; hole:-f becotnes srnaller 24 and srnaller like a last sign frorn the outer worlds of living beings, then the ernpire of death surrounds you- There is a first intersection, a narrow path leads down to a not finished grave construc- tion cut into the ground rock. But we take the Way that goes up at an obtuse angle along a 120 foot sort of a steep chicken ladder. This tunnel is very low and narrow and one has to walk in a stooped position. Then at it's end you can go to the left to-—— ' ward the so called "Queens Charnber" which is cornpletely ernpty, or you can continue in the saxne direction along a huge steep gallery, 25 feet high and about 150 feet long- The polished lirnestone slabs on the walls are so precisely joined together that not a hair would fit in the space between. The wooden ladder is rnuch the sarne as before and quite uncornfortable, but at least there is a hand rail. At the end of this irnpressive gallery you have to slip through a loop hole iof not more than 30 inches and overcorne the 20 foot long passage to the "King's Charnber" in a crouching position. There was no other way to the dead pharoah and all the priests and the high ranking people to crawl through that low passage during the funeral cerernony. The big rose granite sarcophagus was placed dur- ing the construction into the chamber from above and the granite walls were erected, layer by layer, around the sarcophagus. The chaxnber is about 15 by 30 feet and about 18 feet high. ’ After arriving in the King's Chaniber I showed Sun Ra the air shafts, a sort of stone pipe about twelve inches in diarneter, that leads to the outside of the pyramid. Origi- nally there were two of these air vents in the King's Charnber but only the one oppo- 25 site the entrance still worked when We were there and we could feel the current between the chamber ‘and the outer world- The archi- tects of the ‘pyrarnid constructed those rock pipes in’ order to give the soul of the pha- roah free passage from inside the heavy stone ‘masses to the intergalactic outer heavens- I don't recall Sun Ra saying "Sun Ra" nine tirnes, but suddenly the lights went off and when we started clirnbing down through the darkness electricity came on again- I also re- rnernber the candles the dragornan has always on him going into the pyramid. On another occasion I guided Sun Ra and V some of the Inusicians to the so called "Tornb of the Persian", which is not far from the pyrarnids of Gizeh. It is not in the Valley of the King's as I-Iunter supposes- Sun Ra never visited the Valley of the Kings, which is in upper Egypt, about 700 Iniles frorn Cairo. The graves entrance is a hole in the plain desert that leads down some 150 feet via a modern spiral staircase. It is extrernely hot and sultry down there but you forget this unpleasantness on discovering the beautiful fresh'heiroglyphic inscriptions from the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the ernpty sarcophagus of black‘ stone- There are sev-— eral roorns down there and you could easily feel lost. As to the 16rnrn filxn Bugs talks about, I clearly remember it being shot at the foot of the Great Pyramid and in front of a pharaonic ternple some 700 feet northwest of the pyrarnid- Bugs was behind the carnera and Tarn Fiofori from Nigeria was responsible for the sound. He used a Nagra. A Inusician friend of rnine and engineer in I-Ielwan High School near Cairo, Dr. I-Iubertus Von Puttkarner, had a super—-8rnrn carnera and We shot about seven minutes of color silent filrn 26 _ standing besides Bugs‘ carnera. The photo—— graphs in this issue are from this super rnrn filrn. For more about the adventerous pro- cess of developing the filrn see "Sun Ra l\/Ieets Sun‘Ra"- Already some years ago I heard that the 16rn;rn filrn got lost between Sweden and Nigeria, but June Tyson's hus- band, Richard VVi1kinson, wrote in a letter to-Ine, dated- l\/Iarch 1996: "I still have all the audio tapes Sun Ra did there (In Egypt 1971) and some filrn-" Bill Sebastian's filrn, .Sunset On The River Nile frorn 1986 seerns to include some very short sequences frorn that rnaterial, but they are unsuitably super irnposed with strange things, for instance with‘ galloping giraffes, which you would never find on the River Nile. Although they stayed more than two weeks in Egypt, the Arkestra. only had a few gigs. The first took place. in my house in Helio- polis, a suberb between Cairo and the inter-~ national airport. I-Ieliopolis rneans City of the Sun and the ancient God Ra had his holy place of worship there thousands of years ago- So this looked like the right place for Ra's first ritual show i.n Egypt that was on Decernber 12, 1971. The second gig was at TV Cairo, Decernber 16, including an inter—-— view with Saxnir Sabri, at that tirne a well known figure in Egyptian media. In the early '90's I tried hard to find this docurnent in the Cairo TV archives, but unfortunately with no success. The next ‘day, Decernber 17, the concert at the Balloon Tent Theater on the shores of the Nile took place. Salah Ragab was the rnediator with the Egyptian l\/Iinistry of Culture. Salah, a jazz drurnrner and band- leader" hirnself and a rnajor in the Egyptian Arrny, had some connections with the min- istry concerning rnusic, but his position in 274 the army had nothing to do with the l\/Iinistry of Culture itself; first of all he wasn't the B/Iinister of Culture, as Tornrny Hunter sup- poses. Salah Ragab was the head of the Egyptian l\/Iilitary lvtusic department, responsible for more than 3000 rnusicians from Upper to Lower Egypt- I first met him after -a concert with the Randy VVeston Sextet at the Arnerican University in Cairo, Decem- ber 1966.VVith us was a Slovakian bass player, Edu Vizvari, who was teaching double bass at the Cairo Conservatory. As we had sirnilar approaches to jazz we decided to form the first Egyptian big band, the Cairo Jazz Band, including the best of the professional rnilitary rnusicians. It was a 25 piece band- I had the opportunity to choose about 12 of thern to form the Cairo Free Jazz Ensernble which I directed- There was a record out with this free jazz enseinble entitled I-Ielio—- polis. Let me go back to Sun Ra's stay in Cairo. Besides the concert at my place, the TV show and the Balloon Theater perforIn- ances, the Arkestra worked at a night club called Versailles-—without Ineeting rnuch success from his Egyptian audiences-and played a short Inatinee of about 45 rninutes in the main hall of the Arnerican University (Not the Arnerican College!). For more details regarding these gigs see rny book "(Drnniverse Sun Ra". The Arkestra left Egypt around December 23, 1971- Sun Ra hirnself, as well as others like Tornrny I-Iunter, clairn in their interviews that the Arkestra perforrned at the Gerxnan Ernbassy in Cairo. This is definately wrong. I didn't bring Sun Ra in contact with the Gerrnan Ernbassy. I myself was not a rnexnber of the diplornatic staff, but a teacher of Grerrnan as a foreign language at_.the Goethe Institute in Cairo, which is indepen- 28 dent of the embassy and not comparable with the status of the United States Information Service. I lived in Cairo from 1966 to 1972- In the Egyptian TV I\/Iagaziine I was even de- scribed as the Danish Ambassador. This also must have been an information from the inner circle of the Arkestra. It was always important for musicians to be in contact with or refer to so called upper class people. It could be important in stabalizing their rep- utation and it lies in the human psyche itself that sometimes the wish is stronger than the reality and the imagination becomes more and more important- The confusion with the em- bassy people may have come from the fact that the consul of the German Ernbassy, Christian Nakonz, was a good friend of mine- VVe had similar interests and he knew a lot about the social conditions of Afro-—Arneri— cans- He sold Angela Davis posters in Cairo to support her in difficult times. Christian met Sun Ra only once at the pyramids and he attended the performance at my place in I-Ieliopolis- He and the already mentioned Dr- I-Iubertus Von Puttkarner were, besides my- self the only non Egyptians Sun Ra met in Cairo- Tornrny says in his interview (SRR 32) that "the people from Germany" were following the band to keep them from taking photo- graphs- This is pure fantasy. Even John Szwed spreads this nonsense in his Sun Ra biography, Space Is The Place (page 293), most probably on the basis of information from Bugs. No Gerrnan had ever the obli- gation ianywhere in Egyptto keep anybody from taking photographs- It was never for- bidden to take photos outside the pyramids. In order to take photos inside the pyramids you had to give some money to the watch-— 29 rnan. It was definately forbidden to take photos down in the "Tornb of the Persian" and other graves as so not to darnage the very beautiful colored heiroglyphs with flash-— lights. The mentioned photo on the jacket of "Dark 1\/Iyth Equation Visitation" was not taken -in Egypt. the photographer was Sarn Bankheacl and he was not in the band at that tirne in Egypt. This photo Inust have been taken during the shooting of the film "Space Is the Place" some weeks after the stay in Egypt. The photo shows Sun Ra and a few others wearing the costumes and the headgear from that filrn. I-Iartrnut Geerken / June 6,v 1998 30 <oNvE RSATION VVITI-I JOHN I-IIBIDS OCTOBER 31, 1988 SAN FRANCISCO, <A John I-Iinds: How about your soprano sax- ophone? Have (you) decided not to bring it out? John Gilrnore: Still haven't found my mouth- piece and I can't get those high notes that are supposed to come out- They're corning out too thin- No voluxne at all- I don't know what it is until I try it- I tried a few rnouth—- pieces but...the Dukoff Was out of tune..-I don't know- I have to keep shopping around. JI-I: So it just doesn't corne <:1own to getting a more open facing? JG: It rnight- 1\/Iaybe I should try a more open facing Selrner- I'n1 not sure. I haven't did that- I did try a metal Dukoff and it was out of tune. The sound was better but it was out of tune and I never did like those b flats- They always played out of tune- So I don't know. I got to go to New York and try to.-- VVhat I was really trying to do was wait until I got. over in Belgiurn and had this cat rnake fne one--.But we didn't_ go to Belgiurn this tirne- JI-I: Have you tried out any of those...VVhat are they called? Dave Gardella custorn rnade rnouthpieces. In New York. Pharoah (Sanders) uses thern. JG: No, I haven't tried any of thexn. JI-I: I've heard of those. They're supposed to be good- JG: I got to shop around- I got to do that- JI-I: Have you tried out one of those...1ike a 31 rnetal Selxner? JG: A rneatal Selrner? JPI: Yeah- JG: I'rn going to have to l.ook into that- JI-I: (Looking at JG's tenor saxophone rnouthpiece) Now, that's nice- That's what I use and I also have an Otto Link that's not rnetal- It's ebonite. JG: I think I did, rnaybe, try an Otto Link that Was ebonite or sornething- The one I tried I didn't like so far- (Laughs) It Wasn't enough. It Was too expensive for rne to be spending my rnoney and it Wasn't sounding right.--So I got to find sornething that's right. JI-I: If I had a little Inore tirne I'd bring those up and you could try those just to see if you liked those rnodels. ‘Cause the Otto (Link) is really too open for rne. It's really an open.-. Like you were talking about the high notes. You get up ‘there and It's just 1ike.--VVe11, I thought you Inight be able to handle that- I can't. It's just like Lockjaw (Davis)- VVhen I see you, you got that- that ernbouchure. JG: It won't corne out with this rnouthpiece I got- They corne out real thin, you know. JH: That's a drag- That's no good. JG: I know that ain't no good, ‘cause you know, you get no Volume. No nothing on the high notes after you get past D- Even the D doesn't sound all that hot. D up to F- It's 32 kind of sad, you know. It's real, just exces- sively thin, you know. You know it could be playing better than that. (Laughs) Like I said, the only one that I remember really trying is the Dukoff- The sound was better but it was out of tune so that cancelled that. JI-I: You didn't bring it out with you either.‘ The soprano. Did you? JG: Yeah, I got it. I always keep it because I want it and I'm not leaving it at horne. No- body to steal this. I take it right with rne. Then I know where it is- Leave it at horne, rnan, (and) cats are breaking in and robbing and shit so regularly, you know, you can't leave nothing at horne, not that you really want. We got robbed from the inside before we left. The drummer we had watching the house stole shit. Stole the drurns. A new set of drums that Sun Ra bought--.laInps, a TV set..-I-Ie been around us about ten or twelve years. Ever since we moved into the house. JI-I: Eddie? JG: Yeah, crack got him, you know. He can't help‘ hirnself. By the tiIne..-If we hadn't a went back he would have moved the whole darnn house out by the time we got back- If we hadn't stopped back through. In between Chicago and Virginia. If we hadn't stopped back through he's have cleaned the house out, man. real bad shit. ' JI-I: That's always a shocker when...You can't believe it. JG: Sornebody staying with you, Jack. This is not the first time he stayed with us too. He's 33 been staying on and off for the twelve years. Sun Ra had given hirn rnoney before we split, you know. He gave hirn Inoney. He gave hirn sorne.--one hundred and fifty dollars. Can't do that shit, rnan. JH: So he got caught up in the crack thing’. JG: I-Ie's burning everyone around town- The cat's mother in law..-Seventy five or one hundred dollars. Stole his girlfriend's shit- Cleaned her icebox out- Took her TV and dresses- All kinda shit, rnan- JI-I: I guess he's pretty scarce now- JG: Yeah, he don't corne up our way no more. He stays down in North Philly- It's a drag. I'rn telling you, rnan. JI-I: That's scary to have people running through your house full with your stuff, you know- JG: If you can't trust adude like that, who can you trust? A brand new set of drurns. A thousand bucks- They had six heads on the-’ Two bass drurns...It was a bad set, rnan- He had about a rack where you set up and you can go down in pitch. Bootn! Barn! Double bass drurns. Sornebody said they saw the drurns in the crack dealers car. JI-I: Just a scarnology or sornething- JG: He's just using all his friends too- You know, all the people that is easy to rip off- JI-I: People that would trust you. 34 JG: Yeah, but he going to eventually run across sornebody.-.The wrong person..- JI-I: It's going to be bad- It's going to catch up with him bad. JG: He can't get away forever, you know... Run across that person who don't take no burning. (Laughs) And that's your ass. JI-I: And that's it. JG: You will run across him if you keep burning people. 35 SUN RA AT THE GREAT PYMM|D AIRO EGYPT DECEMBER19 PHOTOS: HARTMUTGEERKEN PAT PATRICK NOW. THE FIRST TIME I HEARD ALBERT AYLER PLAY HE WAS PLAYING HIS ASS OFF. AND THEN THE NEXT TIME I HEARD HIM PLAY. I MEAN. HE SOUNDED LIKE. HE SOUNDED LIKE SOMEBODY IUST PIGKED UP THE HORN AND WAS TRYING TO LEARN TO GET A NOTE OR SOMETHING. THAT WAS MY PERCEPTION. AND I HAD MENTIONED THAT TO SUN RA A AND HE SGOLDED ME FOR THAT. YOU KNOW. ABOUT B IF YOU REALLY DON‘T KNOW WHAT SOMEBODY'S DOING DON’T TALK ABOUT IT UNTIL YOU FIND OUT. WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND. DON'T DEFAGE IT. HE GAVE ME A WHOLE LECTURE ABOUT THAT. rommr HUNTER ‘ tum 15.1993 I DEFINITELY FEEL THAT IF PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF ARE GIVEN A CHANCE FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY SEE WHAT I'M PLAYING AND HEAR WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IT COULD DO SOMETHING. BUT THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING SOMETHING ELSE AND THEY DON'T GET A CHANCE. THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WORLD. «THEY'RE SUBMERGED DOWN INTO OBSCURITY AND THE WORLD NEEDS THEM MORE THAN EVER. BUT THAT'S THE WAY THE STORY GOES SO PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF HAVE A TENDENCY NOW TO PLAY THE LOW PROFILE EVEN MORE SO AND GO TO SOME SMALL TOWN OR SOME SMALL COUNTRY AND STAY OUT OF THE WAY. THAT IS WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO. SUN RA ' AUGUST 7, 1989
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-34
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 35 (October, 2001)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2001-10-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: .1-r THE LAST THING I WAS SAYING ON THE RADIO WAS THAT, YOU KNOW I SAID, GOD HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR. HE'S NOT LIKE ‘ PEOPLE THINK, HARsH. HE HAS A sENsE OI= HUMOR. I SAID II= YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, JUST EA<H PERsON c.O sTAND UP AND co AND LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND YOU <AN sEE HIS sENsE OF HUMOR. HE MADE PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, wE MADE IN THE IMAGE OI= GOD sO THAT MAKE. GOD A JOKE TOO, DON'T IT? SUN RA DECEMBER 25. 1987 ....s.< 1. 1...: I ‘ ..v........_n.»»,_o%n......... ( ....2....». .23 W RESEARCH FRANCISCO MORA . . . . . . . . . 1 SUN RA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 213 JOTHAN CAI.I.INS . . . . . . . . . . 52 BERKELEY BARB 1971 . . . . . . . 54 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 35 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1998 $6.00 » OUTSIDE U.S.: $7.00 COVER PHOTO: EM CONVE RSATION wrrH JT()I-Ihl I-IIFIDS AND PETER I-IIl~lI>$ JULY 29, 1998 SAN FRABICISCO, CA %rHJo'ro: JOHN I-IINn"s“ 7 PHOTO: JOHN HINDS FRANCISCO MORA ’ PETER HINDS . : PETER HINDS PHOT...
Show more.1-r THE LAST THING I WAS SAYING ON THE RADIO WAS THAT, YOU KNOW I SAID, GOD HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR. HE'S NOT LIKE ‘ PEOPLE THINK, HARsH. HE HAS A sENsE OI= HUMOR. I SAID II= YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, JUST EA<H PERsON c.O sTAND UP AND co AND LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND YOU <AN sEE HIS sENsE OF HUMOR. HE MADE PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, wE MADE IN THE IMAGE OI= GOD sO THAT MAKE. GOD A JOKE TOO, DON'T IT? SUN RA DECEMBER 25. 1987 ....s.< 1. 1...: I ‘ ..v........_n.»»,_o%n......... ( ....2....». .23 W RESEARCH FRANCISCO MORA . . . . . . . . . 1 SUN RA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 213 JOTHAN CAI.I.INS . . . . . . . . . . 52 BERKELEY BARB 1971 . . . . . . . 54 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 35 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1998 $6.00 » OUTSIDE U.S.: $7.00 COVER PHOTO: EM CONVE RSATION wrrH JT()I-Ihl I-IIFIDS AND PETER I-IIl~lI>$ JULY 29, 1998 SAN FRABICISCO, CA %rHJo'ro: JOHN I-IINn"s“ 7 PHOTO: JOHN HINDS FRANCISCO MORA ’ PETER HINDS . : PETER HINDS PHOTO A R o M o C ...., C N A R F Francisco 1\/Iora: I was walking ‘down the Paseo de Reforrna (1\/Iexico City) and I seen this one poster that says Sun Ra at The Institute of the Arts and I said God! Peter I-Iinds: 1 974 . FA/I: And I said God! And so I ran over there and I took my wife- She was going very relentless (reluctant) ‘cause she didn't like none of that avante——garde stuff. She wanted rne to make some rnoney playing music. So we ran over there and there was Sun Ra. And that's the first time I really heard John Gilrnore. I rnean, I have heard hirn on albums and stuff like that but this was the first, like, really live contact with Sonny and John Gilmore. And I remember hirn standing up (rnakes sound). You know, this thing he had and I'm going like wow man, that's like a Phoenix rising out of the ashes, rnan- And the splendor and sound and I said, "VVhoa, man. That is beautiful, rnan! VVow!" So I went and talked to the cats. The concert finished, June Tyson was singing, Pat Patrick was there, Jirnrnie Johnson was playing drurns. Alzo VVright was there playing the other set. Ruth V\/right was dancing and singing. B/Iarshall (Allen), Danny Thornpson, Danny Davis, Jac Jackson. VVhat's his narne? Ahk Tal Ebah. VVell, Elo was there. Elo Ornoe. John I-Iinds: Richard VVilkinson doing some projections. FIVI: Yeah, Richard of course. Richard was there. All the cats. And the children- He had some children with hirn. Richard's and June's kids and Alzo VVright's and Ruth,'s kids. I was, like, rnan whoa! Sun Ra was there and this is really actually my first real contact with Sun Ra and he's sitting there like this (leans back in chair_with arrns outstretched)- And I go, "l\/Ir- Ra", (laughs) l\/Ir. Ry, l\/Ir- Ra (laughs), I said, you know blah, blah, blah in Boston etc..- (Telling Sun Ra his background which in- cluded attending the Berkeley School of 1\/Iusic in Boston in the early 70's). So he's talking about Egypt ‘cause he had just corne to Egypt (1971) and he was talking about that tixne where they Went to the big pyramid (See Sun Ra Research 32 and 33). And then the thing about the carnel. Re-— member that story about the camel? There was some cats, you know, the camel dri- vers who will be out there offering carnel rides. So they offer Sun Ra this carnel ride and Sun Ra said (To the driver) I'll be right back. So he forgot about them. And the next thing when he went out the cat was still waiting for hirn. (laughs) So he was talking about he was going to be the IvIin_-— ister of Culture in Egypt and they just love hirn so rnuch and the fruit and the food and the pyramids and ancient Egypt and all this other stuff and so on and so forth. And he said, "I don't know what I'm going to do because one of my drurnrners is going back." And I said, "VVhat do you mean he's going back?" He says, " Yeah, well, he's got some things to do in Phila- delphia and he can't stay." I says, "Look rnan, can I audition for the band rnan?" So he says, "Yeah, sure. VVhy don't you check us over at the theater tomorrow where we going to be playing- VVe'll be out there, bring your drurns. So I ran over there with my drurns-.-It was rne by rnyself. Nothing but this one druxnset on this huge stage. They hadn't bring a thing there- So Sonny's standing over there and he says, "Play." So I start playing. I just started bashing. I had a pretty flow tech- nique now. I rnean, I had studied with Alan (Dawson) for about three years- So I turn around and Sun Ra's just looking and he walked away and he left and I'rn still play- ing and he corne back and looked at rne a little more and I'In still playing and he left and I'rn still playing. This went on for about a good fourty rninutes, sornething like that. So he coxne up to rne on stage and says, "OK, you got the gig." (laughs) And it was cool,rnan. So I started playing with Sonny. That's how I started playing with the Arkestra. And we were playing in this theater Where we had this circular stage. So Sonny will signal the cat and all of a sudden the whole Arkestra (would revolve). So we were supposed to stay on this theater for a good rnonth. And the producer said, "I'rn going to Aculpoco to get jobs and gigs." And of course, Sun Ra , was going to the pyrarnids in l\/Iexico and investigating all the ancient unintelligible and Tenochtitlan and all of this. See, Sonny had this introspective vibe. Inquis—— itiveneness about the Inysteries. VVhere—- ever ~he went. You know that. He looked into everything. It was nothing superficial about Sun _Ra. Everything was profound- No rnatter what we do, where we go. So we go to the pyrarnids, he got to find out everything about that stuff- You know, the walkway of the dead, the this and that- And they shooting video...And what's his narne? VVilkinson. JI-I: Richard V\/ilkinson. FIVI: Handling the lights.-.and the projec- tions-.-And June and the dancers.-.running around the pyrarnids with veils and stuff like this and Sun Ra with his stuff. Incred- ible thing! Because on these pyrarnids they see a lot of ﬂying saucers all the tirne. PI-I: Is that right? F1\/I: Yeah. VVell see, Sonny, to rne, was a (compilation) of a lot of unanswered questions. At this time I had all of these questions about avante—garde music, about life and death, about outer space, about all this stuff. And Sonny was it. I was working in Aculpoco one night and we were up on this hill and as we were com- ing dovvn we seen this object that it was like a half a Inoon like this with some little lights on the back and I said, "VVhat the hell is that?" So we walked all the way clown and then we caxne up the hill and all of a sudden that thing straigtened out like this and start coming to us. And all of a sudden it was on top of us and it was huge, rnan! With these lights behind it, you know. And I'In telling rny buddy, "That ain't no balloon, is it?" "No." That ain't no plane, is it?" "No." I said,"VVell, what it is?" It is a flying saucer! (laughs) I say, "VVhoa!" So this was questions that I had. Unanswered questions. And I go, "Sonny, I seen this." He says, There's rnany things in the Universe." (laughs) So then I got to hear John Gilrnore say he seen some red objects. One time they were flying. on a p1ane—-You ever hear that from John? F1\/I: Anyways, We Were at this theater and We started seeing that—It was a theater for, like about Inaybe 1500 people. And all of a sudden we start seeing the audience dras- tically getting less and less and less and less and less. So there was rnore people on the bandstand than were in the audience. And the producer had gone to Aculpoco to find some gigs- He never catne back. And the bill at the hotel was not being paid for. So at this point We're like, Well? And Sonny is like, '"VVell, let's go to work." (Asks Fran- cisco)- "Can you find us some gigs?" So I say, "Sure Inan!" So I'm running up and down and stuff like this (looking for work)-.- Ivly narne at that tirne was an assurned naxne, Ali l\/Iora- At that tirne that was my black nationalist narne. So he (Sun Ra) says, "Ali l\/Iora, you going to have to find us some gigs and stuff-" So I say, "No problern." So We play everywhere- VVe play parks, theaters, festivals.--VVe did all of that stuff. We even did a television progratn called, it's still going on, Siernpre en Dorningoy __(_z§_lyvays on Sunday). We played with an elephant the Suprernes were on the sarne show.--’I‘here was a lo__t___o__f experiences at_ this _tirne__.__Y_Ve play in the park at Chapultepec Park and Sun Ra Went to talk to Clavuc (7)- Clavuc is one of the deities of the water- And they have brought—I told Sonny, I said, "Look Sun Ra, they brought this Clavuc frorn a little village Way out there to inaugurate the anthropology Inuseurn and the native people, they don't want the Clavuc to leave because it brought rain and their crops and everything." They were fine. And they didn't Want their Clavuc to be taken away. It's a rnassive rnonolith. Like rnaybe thirty feet tall for about fifteen (feet) wide- I-Iuge! But they decided they needed it for the opening piece for the an- thropology rnuseurn which is the biggest in Latin Arnerica. PI-I: This is a 1\/Iayan sculpture? Fl\/I: No, it's got to be Toltec because it's near lvlexico City. It's not Aztec- But any- Ways, the brought this Clavuc. They built a special truck, all this stuff, cut electric lines and just carne into the city and situated it in front of the anthropology rnuseurn. And it started raining. Raining, raining, raining, raining, raining, wouldn't stop. And the place where the native people live dried out. So they went over to the president to cornplain. "VVe want our Clavuc back-" Of course they couldn't get it back because it was already situated and it cost so rnuch rnoney and they were not going to do that. So the govern- rnent established a refund and give thexn so rnuch money a year so they can survive for- ever. As an exchange for taking the rnonolith from them. Of course the native people were not satisfied because it took their work out of them. So I told Sonny about this. Sun Ra says, Yeah? I-Irnrn-" So he go over there and we went by the rnuseurn he's standing in front of the Clavuc (silently standing in front of the rnonolith). He turns around and says, "Ali B/Iora, the concert that we going to play outside of that place, it's going to rain. VVe going to have to play inside. So you better talk to those people to make arrangements to play inside because as soon as we start play- ing the concert it's going to rain." So I go over there and I tell the people-of course, I didn't went over there and say Sonny said it's going to rain. Clear blue sky, not a cloud in the sky. Nothing. Beautiful day, we're in the park and stuff like that- ..They' have set up this special stage for us with torches and the audiences started coining clown and so on...And I just told thern, you know, it's going to rain. You may want to make pro- visions With the PA system inside because it's going to rain. (They replied) "It's not going to rain. " I said , " Yes , it's going to rain. " (They replied again) "No , it's not going to rain . " So I said , "OK , it‘ s not going to rain." We started playing the concert and it started raining. It started like, big drops...and the rain is corning down. So the audience is running out, Sonny's looking at rne and I'm running with the drums inside of this place and I'rn looking at these guys...and We go in-— side and this time we play a beautiful piece that we never did in the states. I never played that with Sun Ra. We only did it in 1\/Iexico. It's called The Procession of the Sun. I don't know if it ever was recorded. But it was a fantastic piece. It had about rnaybe five or six different tunes. It's called The Procession of the Sun and I don't know any recording of it. You guys know of any recordirlg of it? PI-I: I haven't_ heard of it. Fl\/I: It was something else! And the I\/Iexican folks like roaaar, woooooow! They just loved it. See, what happened is, the promoter had changed Sonny's visas (and) the whole Ark- estra from cultural to commercial because he thought he was going to put him on this 7 theater and millions of people were going to come because he knew Sun Ra from the Fes- tival la I-Iurnanite in Paris. That time when the army wouldn't let hirn go inside of the place... (SRR 31-..Conversation with June Tyson...Pages 50 and 51) This cat seen that, this promoter, so he says I'm going to take him to l\/Iexico and I'm going to make a kill-— ing with these cats. (Laughs) So he changed the visas to commercial. So I'm going to the National Conservatory of 1\/Iexico saying can we get a concert over here? And he says no. I say why not? He says because Sun Ra's commercial. I say Sun Ra's not commercial! (Laughs) He is not commercial! You believe that? But I did get him a concert at the National l\/Iusic School at the University and we also played at the National University as well. VVe played at the French Embassy and we played on the 1VIayor's Concert at Chapul- tepec Park on a Sunday before 30,000 people. Unbelievable! Incredible! Sorne students frorn Veracruz carrne over and was talking about taking us to Veracruz to play over there and we have to stay in the military dorrns and the shacks and stuff like that and Sonny says, "No, we're not going there with the 1\/Iexican Arxny." (Laughs) You know, the bill (at the hotel) is accurnulating and we ain't rnaking too much rnoney over here so it's tirne to go, you know what I Inean? And you say children and women first, you know what I mean? (Laughs) June (Tyson), all the danc- ers and the children are on a plane and send them to New York. And (Sun Ra) turn around to me and said, "Ali l\/Iora, we going to have to sell some of our equiprnent-" I says, "No, Sonny." He says, "Yeah, we got to pay these bills, we got to rent the bus and we got to get out of here." So I says, "No Shit?" And he says, "Yeah." So Pico (Danny Thompson) and me took this Farfisa Organ and some of the PA system and we went to these folks house and it was a man that had his children learn music and he was going to make a business with these kids playing rnu-— sic. Kids couldn't play, you know what I rnean? (Sarcastically) He was going to rnake a business...So Sonny sent rne out there with Pico and we went into this place way out in Toluca or something like that and we went into this house and the floors were rnud. Real hurnble situation but the rnan had the bucks- It was real strange- So we go in there and we talking about it and the "man (says), "VVe1l, no I can't pay that much. It's too ex- pensive. I can't do it-" So Pico says, " OK, let's wrap everything up and let's go." Cause We had to give a whole demonstration and the thing that it was so attractive about this is that he (Sun Ra) had alittle bar of sound (on the keyboard) that Sun Ra used where it would whoooo, wheeee. So the guy wanted to see that so we had to demonstrate for him and play out a little bit. (Laughs) He says, "Yeah, I like that. I like that. I want to buy that." But he wouldn't pay the price. So Pico says, "Let's pick it up, let's go." So soon as we start breaking down the guy says, "OK. You need the zrnoney, you got the money. Bring rne the Inoney." So here cornes the wife with a paper bag this huge with alrnost, like, one peso bill and five peso and ten pesos but huge like that. So we start count- ing. (Laughs) Thousands of pesos. It's a huge bag like this. So Pico says, "OK, it's all here, let's go." So we went over, Sonny rented a Greyhound bus for the whole band, pay the hotel bill and turned to rne and said, "A1i Ivlora, we going back to the states. You 9 corning?" So. I says, "Yeah man, but they won't give me a visa." So he says, "Let's go to the American Enibassy." So we went to the American Embassy. You know, Sun Ra in his space helmet and stuff.-.and we go over to the American Embassy. Now, the . Arnerican Embassy is huge in l\/Iexico City. It takes over a whole block around. So we go over there and there's a Ixdarine (at the gate). "Halt!" So Sun Ra turns around and says, "VVe have business in this ernbassy and we want to corne in." So the guy said OK. We go through. And I'm going like, whoah, because my experience is you got to go in the line and stay in the line and stay in the line...you go into an office and stuff like this. We go in through the Inain door and we go right in. So they took us over to this office and it's a little bitty office and here comes the State Department guy with a R/Iarine (hair) cut and little tie and he's sitting and he says, "Can I help you?" And Sonny says, and this is incredible, Sonny says, "There is very few people on this planet that can play my music and he is one of thern. I'm taking him to the United States with rne and I want you to give hiII1 a visa for three years. Here's his passport." And the guy took the passport, looked at him, looked at me, looked at hirn and said, "Just a rninute-" And he got up and left. So we sitting. there about twenty minutes. The guy cornes back and says, "No problern." (Laughs) He gives Sun Ra my passport. He doesn't give it to me, he gives it to Sun Ra and Sun Ra gives it to me and says, "Let's go." So we're walk-— ing out of the ernbassy (and) as soon as we pass that Ivlarine, and we are on the Paseo de Reforrna again, Sun Ra turns to me and says, "Ali 1\/Iora, you see the power of the word is 10 rnightier than the power of the sword-" (Laughs) Oh man, he was too rnuch, man, too much! So here we are, ready to leave l\/Iexico City. Everything is in gear and we can't find Jac. VVhere is Jackson? And Jack—— son had rnade some friends down the street from the hotel because we used to pass through this place all the tirne with the Ark- estra and it was this dog, this Gerrnan Shep- herd that had us located. So everytirne he sees us corning-.-the dog just look at us and and barn! (Cornes out barking) And we like, God darnn! Every tirne! So one day we corn-— ing with Jackson, and the owner would be looking at the dog srniling, you know what I rnean? Like, get the niggers! So‘ this day we were passing over there with Jackson and here cornes this dog (barking), a big old Gerrnan Shepherd- So Jackson went like this, bap! In the neck- (Karate chop) And he was a martial arts cat- (Dog ran away crying).-- So he rnade some friends around the corn- er--.VVe couldn't find hirn so Sonny says, "VVe got to go-" So he left some money at the desk and told the people, when he cornes, give him this rnoney and tell hirn to catch us up in l\/Ionterrey. And we left. Before we got on the bus Sonny said to rne, "You know Ali l\/Iora, these people been treating me so rnean here, there's going to be an earthquake here in three days." I said, "But Sonny, my parents live here, c'rnon rnan, give me a break." So Sonny said, "You know, your parents are going to be alright. It's going to be an earthquake here." So we got on the bus going to the north. VVe get to l\/Ionte-— rrey- VVe stop at the Greyhound Bus station and Sonny says, "A1i l\/Iora, go wit.h Pico and _ take a cab and go to the airport and pick up Jackson-" So we take a cab and we go to the 11 airport and as we approaching the airport, here's this plane landing. And we get to the airport and we go over there and there's a plane that is coining in from Ivlexico City- The door opens and it was the first cat that cornes out. (Jackson)...(Laughing)...VVe all got on the bus and We crossed the border. VVe're going to Chicago. It was like that all the time. PI-I: So how long did you play with hirn in the US? FIVI: VVe1l, the band Adidn't like my wife and my wife didn't like the band. It was a recip- rocal situation. So (when) we got to Chicago, Sonny said, "Ali Ivlora, you go to Detroit with your wife. We going to Philly and I'll send for you." And he did send for me. When the band had a major gig he would pay a round trip ticket and I would fly out of Detroit, going to Philly, stay with the band for a while and then fly back. I got tired of this back and forth so I kind of left my vvife... JI-I: (Laughing) Just kind of... FIVI: (Laughing)...and stayed with Sun Ra-.. (at) the space station number one, l\/Iorton Street. Gerrnantown. So that's another set of stories with Sonny out there...VVe were rehearsing and Sun Ra had this way of re—— hearsing the band where we could rehearse everybody playing different parts at the sanrie tirne. So all the conga players...VVho was there? Shahid, Atakatune and it was another cat and they were all doing a part on 5/4 or 7/8 or something like that and then the rhythrn section, we were doing sornething 12 and then the horn section--all the brass were doing sornething and all the reeds were doing sornething else and all of this is going on and everybody in the saxne living roorn is study- ing their parts. Sun Ra is talking on the phone to sornebody, writing an arlrangernent and playing the piano and correcting folks at the sarne tirne. This is all going at the sarne tirne and all of a sudden he drops everything and runs out the door because he heard a shot and sornebody had just been shot in the (street) corner. I realized that this cat had some kind of attention in the environment. It was being so in tune of everything that is going on in your environment that you got all this chaos happening and you hear sorne- body got killed on the corner. It's (because) of being in tune with everything that is going on. It was just like that. But funny things will happen all the tirne and this cat-—vvhat's his narne? He was a repair cat, friend of the cats in’ the house. This cat cornes over and says, "Sonny, frigerator ain't happening rnan- VVant rne to fix it?" Sonny says, "Yeah, sure." So the cat goes over, grabs the refrigerator, puts it on the floor, he starts taking (it apart) and says, "Oh shit, I'm late and I'll be back." And the cat leaves. Now, this refrigerator in the rniddle of the floor in the kitchen and from then on everybody going in the kitchen (has to step over the parts of the refrigerator).-.So one day he (Sun Ra) come over and says, "Ali 1\/Iora, help rne put this refrigerator up." So we put it up and he goes unintelligible of the kitchen and starts putting books in there-..So he Inade it into a bookshelf.-.l\/Iatt! That was the name of that cat (repairrnan). He come around all the tirne and fixing stuff and leav-'- ing stuff, none of it fixed and leave. Then 13 Jackson would have to come back and repair this stuff. It would always be like that- So Sonny says, "This is it. Nobody wants to fix the refrigerator." So he went to the corner and bought himself an icebox and carne back with it. I-Iev says this is my own personal stash here! (Laughs)---That was some beauti—— ful stuff. Living with Sun Ra in Philadelphia. At the tirne it was rough- The band wasn't really working that much. This is like the 70's. VVe were, like, really outcasts- The whole crew. I totally believed in what We were doing to the point of, like, the edge- I was weighing, like, about 125 pounds at that tirne. Irnean our gigs were 1ike...VVe take over (to) Columbia -University. We leave Philly with all this stuff. Like 10 o'clock in the rnorning. We get to New York, we un- load; We set ,up the stage, we play in this theater and then we play a concert that starts at 4 o'-clock and that ends up at 1 o'clock in the Inorning- Sotnebody had the nerve to tell Sonny you are good with all this blues and all this'jazz and all this shit but you can't play classical music. So right in the middle of the concert Sun Ra starts playing the unin- teligible Sonatas by Schubert and Scriabin and -.-(for) hours..-by hirnself- Just arnazing- And then when we hear something farniliar we all run to the stage. But it was like a picnic. VVhen he went into that (Schubert and Scri- abin) we got out of the bandstand, we went into the cro‘wd. Sornebody gave me a sand- wich or a this or a that ‘cause we hadn't eaten. Then we hear_ something familiar and we all run to the stage and start playing again with hirn. And it would be funny all the time because wherever we ‘go there's a local crowd that plays with Sun Ra but never rehearses with Sun Ra. And I would be 14 totally pissed because he wa's very dernanding at rehearsals. And we start rehearsal at 2 or 3 O'clock in the afternoon and we'd rehearse to 2 O'clock in the morning and we'd sleep like, four hours and here comes Sun Ra at 7 o'clock to me, "Ali I\/Iora, wake up, c'rnon. I got this tune- Get the brushes, get the brushes!" I got to get into it quick and I'm in my drawers (underwear)-..He (Sun Ra) says, "The problern with you Ali l\/Iora is that you don't have a sense of hurnor in the brushes." (Laughter) "A sense of humor in the brushes? Sonny, what are you talking about?" He says, "You got to go and listen to some Fats VVa11er." And boorn! I-Ie's gone. It was just like this so We're at Colurnbia University playing this long concert. VVe finish at one (arn)——VVe had a fire eater. At the beginning of the concert there's, like, eight drurn sets and Sun Ra's 1ike—I said, "VVhat are we going to do with eight drurns? These people haven't rehearsed a thing." He says, "Don't worry about it. VVe got it all together." (Arkestra plays "space chord") And he'd get one drurnset playing, another drurnset...stop, you go, you go, stop, both you-..h/Iade a whole piece out of that stuff right there. I-Ie was like that all the tirne. Just deal with this stuff when it happens.-. There was a cat in New York that was the rnan with the bells. He dressed all in purple and in every concert he comes up with a ton of bells and he just unpacks thern, loads them right there and there's like a Inountain of little (bells)—And he plays all the bells. All through the concert. VVe had dancers that used to come out. Out of nowhere...They corne out of holes or this or from under the subway or from wherever and they were just like spirits that corne out and show up and 15 they dance and they jurnp and everywhere. . . So seven or eight drummers playing at the beginning of the concert and like about four or five hours later one drunirner breaks down (his equiprnent) and splits (and) another one splits, another one splits, another one splits- It was just rnyself-.-VVe started the concert at four. Now it's eight at night and I got to play to one o'clock in the rnorning, with John Gilmore- (And he's playing) like way out there and I'm totally pissed. This mother- fucker (drummer) should be over here. VVhere are they? (Laughs) That concert was incredible because we had a fire eater and he come on and start spitting balls, sorne fire-— balls and some of the fireballs, they start clirnbing up and start burning up the cur- tains. So Sonny cut out the fire eater for a minute. (Laughs) Anyways, we stop- It was about 2 O'clock. VVe break down, we load the truck and we drive back to Philly. That was the routine- I wake up in the morning and I'm just out in this truck and I don't recog- nize nothing that was going on and I'rn going what the hell? VVhere are we? So here cornes Pico (and) I say, "VVhat are you all doing?" "VVe already eating breakfast- You fell asleep so we left you over here 'cause we needed sornebody to watch the equiprnent-" (Laughs) Oh man, so many things with Sonny- We played a show with 1\/IcCoy 'I‘y_.ner one tirne. It was the l\/Iark of Jazz- 1\/Iark Johnson, I think that was his narne- l\/Iark of Jazz in Philadelphia and at the end of the concert- All Sun Ra says, "VVe have eleven rninutes for the show- So we got to play all the repertoire in eleven rninutes." And we played like, eight tunes in eleven rninutes. That was sornething so fantastic about the band that he had it so rehearsed that wherever he wanted 16 to take the ensemble, it went- We only had to hear two or three notes.-.(Starts singing the rnelody to VVatusa)--.it was just like that all the tirne. So we did it in eleven rninutes- Then we packed all the stuff...I saw Sonny talking to l\/IcCoy Tyner- VVe left, we went back to the pad, we unload sornething, we're dragging our asses, we brought everything in. And all of a sudden, hey man, where's Sun Ra? Oh shit rnan, we left Sun Ra- VVe left Sun Ra in (New York). So I said,"No shit, rnan?" I says, "VVell?" You know what I rnean? I went over there to rny little corner and got my sleeping back and got inside of it and closed the thing. (And later) I hear whooorn! (Front door slamming) And the Ra throwing the fire down! That's one tirne that I heard Sun Ra cussing. Talking about, "I'rn going to leave your black asses on planet Earth-" (Laughs) He was pissed! He was pissed, Inan! He was outraged, man! He had to take a cab horne. You don't do that. I was just like inside of that (sleeping bag) like, listening to all of that thing. He went down through the list on everybody, everybody- The fire was everywhere. And Sonny was so intense- V\/hen he got into a thing it didn't stop for hours and hours and hours- And then it turned to days. Then start corning down because there's other things that he got to take care of but he never cornes down- I tried to keep up with hirn one day and I says I'rn going with hirn. No rnatter where he goes, I'rn with hirn- So we went to New York with Space Is the Place- To edit it and stuff like that, on the train frorn Philly to New York. VVe going over there, I'rn carrying this big stuff- VVe go to the studio and We see the editing and stuff like that. We go over to Richard's (VVilkinson) house- VVe go over 17 here, we go see some other cat--.this is going for about three days. No sleep. And then Sonny says OK and we go back to Philly. So we jurnp on the train back and I'm like this (sleeping) on the train. VVe get off the train, we go into the house and Sonny goes upstairs and I go into the couch... (collapses and falls asleep) I woke up. So where's Sun Ra? He left, went back to New York. (Laughter) I-Ie (Sun Ra) knew what he was doing. He knew what he was...I-Ie took it to the edge.‘ There's no doubt in my mind. A lot of the cats give him qualities of supernatural and this and that. I arn very practical. I'rn a re- ligious person. I do Buddisrn- I'm into some different things of the African thing... Especially working with the Afro——Cuban people. I really had to stretch out in the spiritual vibe..-To be able to learn and understand- And that's something that Sun Ra always encouraged rne to do anyway- When I told hirn I had to leave Olatunji because we were getting too serious in unintelligible religion he says, "That was the worst thing you could have done- You should have stayed with him and learned all that stuff. You would be a lot wiser." So I foll-—- owed that. If somebody presents sornething spiritual to rne, I just go with it immediately. VVith no problexn. A cerernony, yes. A this, yes. Let's go. Because it's growth of your-— self. And Sonny was always on top of every- body. Very clear about being exactly that.-. So from my perspective, Sun Ra is kind of a gifted hurnan being, entity of a hurnan being that is highly developed on a natural basis. 18 Just like a l\/Iozart writes music like crazy. Sun Ra had this intuition for what we understand as supernatural but ‘to hirn this is a very natural plane of things. VVe get amazed and we think that is something from the far beyond but for hirn this was every days reason, every days work of nature- And tried to convey that to people through the rnusic- Not only the Inusic, What he called the cosrno drarna- VVhich included the inclu- sion of not only music but the visuals---and the dance-.-I-Ie said at one point, "The State Department asked me to go on a tour to the Soviet Union" and he Wanted fifty million dollars. (State Departrnent asks),"But what do you want fifty rnillion dollars for?" I want to use one rnillion dollars to create... PI-I: Each state- . . Fl\/I: A cultural center for each state. And the State Departrnent blew it because they didn't get hirn no fifty rnillion dollars- And fifty rnillion for the State Department ain't shit! It's nothing!-.-You guys hear about the guy frorn the State Departrnent-—a psychic that they sent to check out who Sun Ra really was? JI-I: l\Io. Fl\/I: (Laughing) That was in VK/ashington and the guy carne over and didn't say nothing. He was just standing over there and people were talking rnand, of course, we had this thing about security for Sun Ra.-.I'll tell you sornething about that stuff, who was really protecting Who? But we (Eloe Ornoe and Fl\/I) were over there standing like this (arrns crossed) and this guy cornes over and he's 19 real quiet. "Sun Ra! I know where you corne frorn, now!" He (Sun Ra) says corne here... The guy Walks over there and they're talking this stuff and so and so and he left. "Sonny, What did he say? VVho's that guy?" He says, "That's a psychic that the State Departrnent sent to find out where I was frorn." "V\/hat did he say?" (Sun Ra replies) "I-Ie said that I'm from a planet called Kryton." Kryton? He says, "Yeah, Kryton. The people are really giants and huge. It's an overwhelrning civilized place and it's far, far, far, far, far in sorne kind of a galaxy. You ever hear about that? JI—I: NO. Fl\/I: He Went on air (radio) in VS/ashington (DC) and said over the air and said that he was an angel that came from outer space. He was the only one person that had a space prograrn for the black man in Arnerica. So the State Departrnent Want to find out what the hell is going on and what is his space program for the black man in Arnerica? (Laughing).-.I learned so much frorn hirn. The Fletcher Henderson rnaterial. That was crucial for rne- ‘Cause there's no places Where to play that and there's no bands Where to play with-..Al1 of that stuff is just like foun- dation to Ine- And then of course the avante garde Within the concept of avante garde- It's not just that it's avante garde as an aesthetical thing, it's that the evolution of people is the deterrninating and evolving expression of sound according to the Way you're relating to the environment. They Want to call it avante garde ‘cause they Want to put it on this Cage and stuff lke that. But Sun Ra was talking about the cosrno 20 drarna. He said chaos. Frorn chaos cornes order so let's do chaos- So We're chaos. Those things are very basic principals of life and nature but I still have to corne to fully realize from Sun Ra about it. The last gig that I played with Sonny was in Detroit- They did a residency. I had kind of rnoved back to Detroit and I played sporadically with the band. JI-I: Did you go back with your wife? Fl\/I: No, I rernarried. I had divorced and all that shit. That was so rnuch shit- But they carne to Detroit and it was the _new year's eve of 1979 going in to 1980. I played a whole week with Sonny out there. Sarnarai was playing C1t'LlI'I‘1S, Tani Tabbal was playing drurns- It was the three of us and the new year's day about five o'clock, six o'clock in the rnorning-..the cat says, like, Where's the rnoney? and what's going on? and stuff like this and Sonny's just exhausted, sitting there like this (slurnped in a chair), like he used to do- And he'd be on the edge of things and he talking to you and all of a sudden.-.asleep. So I'rn sitting over there watching Sun Ra, eight o'clock carne about, woke up and says let's go. It was always unexpected. It was always on no nziatter what's happening. So Sonny said, "Let's go- Ali 1\/Iora, are you coining with us?" I said, "Sonny, rnan, I got a house, I got a house note, I got a wife, I got two children, I got all this other stuff. I got to see what's on the other side of the coin now- I know this: I have to go and find out about the other stuff-" Sun Ra said OK. And the Arkestra pulled all their stuff- I helped out like always, out to the bus and they went to Chicago. And that was the last gig that I played with Sonny. Never again..- But I will always rexnain loving hirn and appreciating hirn so rnuch, so rnuch for just having crossed paths with hirn and having hirn taking care of me for-.-We11, in his life span it was just a little tab- '73 to 1980. ‘ About seven years but I learned so much. Editor's note: According to The Earthly Recordings of Sun Ra (Robert Carnpbell), Ali ].\/Iora (I-Ie's referred to as Ali 1\/Ioran— page 70--.#196) appears on an audience recording from The Five Spot in New York City from June 11, 1975. And the New Year's Eve Detroit concert Francisco recalls on page 21 dates from December 31, 1980 and not frorn Decernber 31, 1979- 22 <oNvI.=. RsAT|oN \AII"I"I-I PETER I-IIINIDS DECEIVABER 2.5. ‘I987 Peter Hinds: Sun Ra, this is Peter- How are you doing? Sun Ra: I'm still trying. Trying to do something worthwhile, beautiful. PI-I: You are. How have you been feeling? SR: I've been feeling pretty good- A few minutes ago I just got back from V\/ashington DC. I Was on the radio there. PI-I: VVhat was that about? SR: I’rn playing there Sunday so I went down for interview. PH: So you drive dovvn there or take the train? SR: No, the producer picked rne up and took rne dovvn there this rnorning. He just brought Ine back. PI-I: You have a nice drive down there? SR:Yeah, it was pret-ty good. Of course, he Was in a jeep- I don't think I like jeeps too Well- Too rough but they go pretty fast- You know, they're not very cornfortable. They're not made for that I don't think. VVe playing in Philadelphia tornorrow night- V PI-I: VVhere ' s that? SR: At the Painted Bride, that's an art center here. And then we playing in V\/ashington DC Sunday, a rnatinee- So that's why I be talk- ing on the radio. 23 PI-I: I see. And I understand you're playing in New York next week. ’ SR: VVe just got through playing in New York at the Bottorn Line. I would say rnaybe...January the eighth when we playing there. Again, we gave first a George Gersh- win concert and then we had a repeat to do that again and we did it again and then last week we did Irving Berlin and then on the twenty third of this Inonth we did a Christ- rnas fantasy. VVe also did that in Boston and the next thing is Jerorne Kern and Cole Por- ter concert and after that we going to do Jirnrnie Lunceford and Duke Ellington con- cert and, you know, they very interested in that particular aspect of doing things. That night felt like Irving Berlin night- VVe didn't play nothing but Irving Berlin cornpositions and arrangernents by me and George Gersh- win the sarne way- People be able to hear a lot of cornpositions by thern they hadn't heard before in a different Inanner and everybody liked it- PI-I: That sounds great. SR: The fantasy I played everybody's cornpo— sitions including rnine. VVe having an outer space surnrnit rneeting concert for three days. PI-I: VVhere's this? SR: It's going to be at the Knitting Factory- That's sort of like a teenage haven-.. PI-I: In New York? SR: Yeah, it's in New York. On the lower east side. Playing there three days. 24 PH: VVhat's that going to be about? SR: It's the extrerne avante garde- The wild, crazy Sun Ra stuff. » PI-I: That sounds real nice. . SR: They said they wanted the furthest out things because, see, the Bottom Line'and Sweet Basil are worried about rne=p1aying there at that place so I have to call it some- thing else- Unintelligible I don't play too rnuch of rny avante garde thing but in this particular place I'll just be playing nothing but that rnaybe- New costurnes and every- thing. PI-I: New costurnes . SR: Yeah, I got a costurne called red srnoke. It looks like that when you... PI-I: Sorne fabrics you found recently? SR: Yeah, you can see through it- But when you look through it, it looks like srnoke. Under the lights it looks like fire too ‘cause you can see through it- It's a very beautiful unintelligible fabric. PI-I: Yeah, that sounds Very interesting. You'll have to bring that out when you corne out- SR: Oh yeah, definitely. I'In going to be pre- senting rny full thing now. I was trying to play the low profile but it's not working so I have to boldly put out the whole thing now. In fact, I was on the New York Tirnes. They got a radio station- I didn't know nothing 25 about it- It rnostly bearns to Europe and to the world I think because they got a prograrn called Connection and I've never heard that station- It's VVQ sornething and it's in the New York Tirnes building, the newspaper. So they told (rne) to call anytixne I wanted to talking. And then another organization carne to interview rne. Something like the VVorld Space Agency. They carne out and they was asking rne about planet Saturn and things like that. I'm getting quite a bit of coverage. PH: That sounds really great. I was in a record store the other day and I saw that Leo Records out of London, England has put out a Night In East Berlin. SR: Yeah, that's very nice. In fact, they played it today on radio prograrn- ————_—_—_—_.—...j—_—__—B__——.—j——-————-—_._—.:—..__..—_.B—__——_.___..—_—...__..:._.—:___..:.:.j_._ PI-‘I: Did they (Leo Records) call you and talk to you (about releasing a Night In East Berlin)? VVhen did this happen? SR: They were talking to rne about it in East Berlin but at that tirne they didn't pay rne because they could only pay rne in the East Berlin rnoney. I can't use that over here. But then they said they were going to - get in touch with rne later and pay rne in VVest Berlin rnoney but they have to, what they'd have to do is to take an instruinent or autornobile or sornething and sell it in VVest Berlin to get the rnoney to send rne- I'In going back over there so I can get it then but I can't use East Berlin rnoney be- cause you can't change it over here- I had 26 a choice, you know. So I just said no I wouldn't take it. -----:—_-—._B.-2-::.—-j.:j.——.BB_--.——;—.__..:_:-———.—-——.—.-__:.._:B..——.——.—_——-——:..—_:- PI-I: I was watching a television program a couple ‘of months ago on the history of black dance in America and it was a great show. It had all these wonderful dancers- Nicholas Brothers arnong other people, Bojangles Bill Robinson- And they were talking to this guy and he was talking about his experiences dancing and they flashed his narne up on the screen and his name was C. Scoby Stronlan- SR : Strornan? PI-I: Yeah- SR: Oh yeah, he played with rne- He's a drurnrner. PI-I: That's right- And I looked through my records and I found out he plays drurns on Secrets of the Sun, Art Forrns of Dirnensions Tornorrow and VVhen Sun Cornes Out. All from about »'62 about there. Sun Ra checks call waiting and then returns. SR: That was Kenny.-.You see, Danny is not with us in a sense right now ‘cause you know he rnarried. And then he created a problern because when he rnarried, he didn't invite nobody in the band to the wedding. He just went out there like that and so didn't nobody feel good about that, as long as he been with us. But in the rneantirne his wife was telling everybody he's rnarried and we was the only 27 people that didn't know- That was quite ern- barrass (ing)- It Wasn't disciplined so then-.. VVe11, I just sit him on the sideline where he can learn who his friends are for a while. But he ain't been playing with us. He's finding out that.-.I reckon he's getting lonely- I-Ie's found out that it ain't too good to be without friends. PI-I: V\/hen did he get married? SR: About three Inonths ago. And then he had difficulty after about a rnonth and then he came back to the house, brought his stuff. He wouldn't tell nobody what the difficulty was- I-Ie's travelling alone and then he finally went back over there. He ain't got no job. She got a job and he ain't got no money. He be begging people, the boys in the band for some money so he's in trouble. You know, he's in trouble. Now he got the unin- telligible, the bleeding unintelligible. Oh, he's in trouble. I'rn trying to stay out of that so I got.-.Pat takes care of business, Pat Pat- rick. PI-I: So he's doing a lot of the business? SR: So then we keep on rnoving- PI-I: That's good- I just want to get back to Scoby Strornan just for a second. Do you know where he's living right now? SR: I-Ie's living in Brooklyn but I did have his nurnber sornewhere but Danny got all the nurnbers, you see? That's the point about it. He got all these phone nurnbers and things and when I call hirn about it he be saying, "VS/ell, I got to find it-" And that's one thing 28 he's doing. He got so where he could never find phone nurnbers and. . -you know, con- fused- PI-I: That was really wild. Scobey Strornan- And they had a clip of hirn dancing from the late fourties. SR : Oh yeah? PI-I: Yeah, it was real nice. Dancing and I can't remember who it was. SR: VVhat was the narne of that (program)? I'm surprised you know. He really dances nicely- PH: Yeah, in fact he was dancing with I-Ioni Coles. Early fifties, late fourties. It was a nice clip and the prograrn was, I can't re-— rnernber the narne of it, but it's a history of black dance in America. It's an hour pro-— rarn. Excellent. SR: I'rn surprised they haven't played it here. PI-I: I saw it on our-, it's like public broad- casting out here. And how was Europe? I guess you went to Europe a rnonth or two ago. SR: Europe was fantastic. VVe played Poland and we played Checkoslovakia this time and of course-..of course Danny...Turkey wants us to play and he got the man's nurnber and I asked hirn for it the other day (and) he say, "I got to find it." He's cornpletely confused, he's confused- PI-I: So you had a good reception in Poland. 29 SR: Oh yes, it very beautiful. In fact, I think they going to put out a record- I got to..- They wrote Ine a letter about it. I got to answer that. But I been so snowed out, you know, trying to straighten out. things since "I'm in charge of Pat and we have to put things together. PI-I: Is Pat living in Philadelphia now? SR: ‘I-Ie.'s staying_ right next door to me. I,'rn up at this other _nurnber. -It's sort of like my office. I call it that and Pat got an apartrnent right next to it- PH: I-Iow's John (Gilrnore) doing‘? SR: John, he's down at the other house (5626 l\/Iorton Street)- I-Ie's doing very well- Jackson, Elo, I\/Iarsha1l--.and 1\/Iichael Ray, he's with us- You know, he was with Kool and the Gang but some kind of way he told thern we had first priority so he might go back over with thern sornetirne but he just prefer to be with us so, you know...unin— telligible quite different- *Then we got Victor Sprole with us now. ‘ PI-I: Yeah, I was talking to Buster (Srnith)- I-Ie rnentioned that. I--Ie ' goes way back_ there with you. ’ SR: Yeah, that's right. He been with us. unin- telligible. I'rn looking at this Joyful Noise. I-Iave you seen that? PI-I: Yes.I have seen that- SR: It is arnazing. A lot of shots in there that I hadn't really looked at real good. But 30' then we got this Calling Planet Earth which is fantastic and also it being put together where it's going to have two unintelligible. It's going to have Sunset On the Nile and that's ..going to be real fantastic you know, ‘cause it puts the, parts there where I'm walking on the pyrarnid and the Sphinx and that's over in there. June will be singing it and I'rn playing a Kurzweil... PH: I saw Sunset On the Nile in your hotel roorn here in San Francisco and the had the kaleidoscopic, geornetric patterns with it. SR: They got the sarne thing there but then- they added something- They've added some scenes actually in Egypt. So I'll be able to get one of those next——they said they'd have it ready..-they working on it today presumably- It's in Boston, you see. - PI-I: That's going to be offered for sale on a videotape? SR: Yes that's true. Yes, well we haven't really put it out on the commercial Inarket but this one might go out there. It's just a matter of certain people I want to reach ‘cause some people, like, it takes them a long tirne to coordinate. They like what they see. Like, I saw a fellow just now, he was stating how Wonderful the concert was. I said which concert? I-Ie's talking about sornething we did '1 in 1977. (Laughs) Said it was the rnost won- derful thing he had ever seen. It took hirn _ ten years to realize it. Ten years- And he ‘I talked about it like it was yesterday. He de—- scribed it and everything and we've changed quite a bit in ten years. And we really have standing ovations in New York City and 31 everybody be looking for~us.. VVhy, we could play there every night and have a crowd It's thouroughly indoctrinated the idea of my doing my infinity thing. And they come out you see and hear a Whole night of Irving Berlin and this is going topbe—The Cole Por—— ter and Jerorne Kern thing is going to be something else 'cause you know, they both wrote wonderful nurnbers. -——:---j——-_————--—;-:—¢——:-jan-_—.——_:¢.--u——:»——-jug-3-—_—a:--—__..—.—-g.--1————_—._-.——_.:—— PI-I: Do you have any other planned releases? Anything coming out? SR: Oh yeah- In that sense I'rn low profile but I decided I'd really put some things out I'd been holding back ‘cause I Wasn't seeking the plaudits of rnankind or anything like that- But it's open now for people to really-—'I‘hey researching—A lot of people trying to get the old records. It's in demand. They trying to catch up. (Chuckles) You got the John Cage thing (LP), didn't you? PI-I: Oh yes I did. Did you hear What happened to John Cage? SR: NO- PI-I: I-Ie's OK, he's doing fine- Vvhat happened was he was in Frankfurt... SR: He told tne he was doing an opera over there. PI-I: Yeah, this is What happened: It was the day before the premier of his opera and he had a roorn inside of the opera house, he was upstairs or sornething and sornebody came in 32 and set the place on fire. And he got out SR: You don't Inean it. PI-I: It's true. SR: Set the opera house on fire or his. room? PI-I: Set the opera house on fire and he got out OK but the opera house was pretty tnuch destroyed and so they cancelled the opera. SR: Too Inuch! PI-I: It rnight be years before that happens- ' SR: Unbelievable! PI-I: He got out OK, he's O-K. SR: I should tell the producer of the record about it ‘cause I imagine he's back in Arnerica now. PI-I: This happened a month ago or so. SR: This other fellow, he didn't know any- thing about it. I'm sure he would have told me ‘cause he carne out, we was planning on re—release the record and he carne out to the Bottom Line the other day so he didn't rnen—— tion that. I asked hirn about Cage and I said what is he doing? And he said he's over there in Europe with his...So he doesn't know this. PI-I: But like I say, he's OK, he was fine. But he's just going to have to wait on his project- 33 SR: ’I‘hat was his big.-.I-Ie was just over into that. He was telling rne about it. That's really sornething- You see, people who trying to be creative, they have a difficult tirne but that is too rnuch. That was deliberate. Unintelligible present that opera- That is too rnuch- PI-I: I just saw the one article and so I don't know. They caught the guy but I haven't read anything else about why he did it or the reasons but the fact is the opera house is—They're going to have to rebuild the whole . thing. SR: That is incredible. I‘n:1 going to have the producer call hirn up ‘cause I'rn' trying to put out something else with hirn really putting one of his cornpositions where he's playing it- And I want to do that, you know, instead of the talking- 1\/Iaybe he can put me in Berlin (excerpt of Berlin concert) too. 1\/Iaybe he can put part of the opera in there- PH: That will be interesting to see what he has to say. You gave Ine when you were out here last l\/Iay, you gave me a copy, that small little copy of the Irnrneasurable Equa- tion containing a lot of poerns that I havn't seen before. I'rn going to start Working on that so when you corne out I'll have some books for you. SR: I rnight unintelligible. Sorne things I been holding back- I don't know if I got this poern in there Where I say: A God lay down to dreani- I don't know if you got that. PI-I: OK, I'll check on that. SR: A God lay down to drearn and in his 34 rnind people carne in there and all kind of things carne in- Sorne ugly things carne in there, some wars and everything. But then the drearn, some very beautiful things started to happening from some people who were very beautiful in what they were doing. And then he didn't want to wake up. He just want to see what were these beautiful people going to do. So then he kept drearning about it and then he woke up and he reached back in the drearn and got all the beautiful people out so they could be with hirn. That's interesting, isn't it? I-Ie reached into the dream and got all those who done these beautiful things and Inade thern real- PI-I: That's a nice story- SR: So I don't know whether you got that. PI-I: I'll look for that- I'll look for that and let you know- Give rne your schedule for the next week. SR: VVell actually I had everything set aside because I thought I was going to Paris ‘cause they wanted rne to corne over there for five days. But they wanted rne to corne over—First presents like Inostly just piano solo and then they said I could bring three people with rne- They could just unintelligible. So I said if I wasn't doing anything I would go- But then the ..Bottorn Line said these concerts is ess-— ential. They got to unintelligible things so it wouldn't rnake sense for rne to turn that down. And then I "got this thing (in) January with the Knitting Factory which is sort of teenage place. I'd better stay put you know- And then if I could get soniething in Feb- ruary-If I could, after the Knitting Factory 35 which is the 31st is the last day, if I could leave on the first and unintelligible there I could start on the third or the fourth or something like that unintelligible coming out there but I can arrange it you know. Yes, that would be good. So rnaybe if you talk to Art (Sato).--I'rn going to talk to that Jack Rich too but Jack Rich is saying what am I going to do? If he knew we was playing out there then he could book sornething too. _ RT SR: They asked rne what alburns I'rn putting out next? And I said there's one I've been holding back for some tirne. It's rnusic frorn the private library of God. I'll to put that out. So I already got Fireside Chat with Lucifer but I'm going to put out nine vol- urnes of that ‘cause that kind of rnakes thern jurnp back- Like I said, when America was in trouble before President Roosevelt they had the fireside chats- And it's in trouble again but they don't have President Rosevelt but Lucifer shows he's still around so just have a fireside chat with-..I told a fellow look——I—Ie's a l\/Iuslirn—I said if you don't like the condi—— tions on this planet, why don't you have a chat with Satan and tell hirn you don't like what's happening, the way he's doing things- And he said, "VVell, I'rn just a country boy- I corne frorn l\/Iernphis and I'rn not used to those sort of things-" (Laughs) I said but‘ you say you're righteous and you said that Satan is causing all this trouble, I don't see no harrn in approaching him and insisting on an audience. He still said he wasn't going to do it- (Laughs) So rnaybe I'll approach the churches and ask thern to do it. Have a surnrnit rneeting with hixn. (Laughs) But I 36 asked a Ininister, I'll talk to hirn each tirne I see hirn- I ask hirn—I saw hirn in a restaurant the other day and I said how's your boss doing? And he said, "VVe11, he's doing all right." I said, when is he going to stop kill- ing folks and doing all that? He said, "VVel1, actually he's not doing that- Satan is doing that." I said, well why don't you do some- thing about that? He said, "It's Satan's job you know and he don't hate people. He's only doing his duty, he's doing his job." I said well, he's really doing a good job. (Laughs) I-Ie's Inessing folks up. But it's really funny that——I told him your boss ought to quit it. VVhy don't you talk to hixn? I-Ie say, "VVell,. I'll get around to it." I say, you know what? He got unintelligible a trillions and billions of money and some rnore folks ain't got no Ino- ney. I said unintelligible some black folks, they ain't even got no where to stay at- I say some other people ain't got nowhere. VVhy don't you talk to hirn about it and tell hirn that these people need some rnoney, the poor. And he said, "I can dig it." (Laughs) He talking about his boss. I can dig it. So he didn't say no- I said tell hirn the poor people need some rnoney, don't leave Ine out. I could do a lot of things that is wonderful if I had the rnoney, I'rn telling you. It's not really philosophy- You rnight call it equa—— tional but philosophy is like conjecture you rnight say. But then philosophy could rnove over into something else like (the word) Phil- Phil rneans the Sun. That's one of the narnes of the Sun so you could say it's Sunology if you look at that particular way, Phil- That's the reason they call it Philadelphia- Philadel- phia, City of Brotherly Love- So they got that Phil in there. But actually, Phi_l__I__1__1~ean3;* Sun and you could use it-.-you could___ use it- 37 In fact, if you spell Philadelphia with an F—-I- L, right there you could see, you turn it around backwards and you got lif, L——I—F- So I'rn dealing with words and a lot of people are beginning to listen. It's equational, these words I'rn talking about. I saw a fellow in the rnovie (A Joyful Noise), so he said, "VVhat kind of rnessage?" I said, well actually I'rn not supposed to interfere- This planet, I Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. And I'rn not here to cause no disturbance or un-— intelligible or convert people but I said I would tell you sornething but don't tell any- body I'Ve said it. He said, "If it's truth, I'rn going to tell thern." (Laughs) So he is seek- ing wisdorn rnaybe. So " he said, ' "VVait Sun Ra, I see a sign out there about Allah and wasn't God Allah?" VVell, I said but God is spelled with a srnall G. VVhy are you going to spell Allah's narne with a srnall G? And the other nations spell with a capital G- So he never noticed that. I said everytirne I see that Islarn, they talking about one God- They spell God with a srnall G- And all the other nations spell God (with) a capitol G- I say you have to Watch thern little things like that- And has significance. Said one- God, srnall G- So he thought about it. He was sitting there just studying, thinking about it. He Won't be able to shake it out of his rnind- It is true. But I didn't tell hirn that when the Bible’ said unintelligible God his World he spells it with a srnall G- And then when he talk about the Sun and the sky it's spelled with a srnall S. And all the rest of the planets are spelled With capital letters but the Sun is spelled with a srnall S- And all these things has signifi- cance you see. I'rn very particular about every unintelligible in words and letters and that's the reason I know this planet is going 38 to change, ‘cause I'rn going to change it. Like I told a fellow. I said—At the New York Tirnes building on the radio, I said I'm a scholar. I like to study and I like wisdorn and I like music and I could just hide away just listening. Not only my rnusic but other rnusicians and classical. I got so Inuch to do and I don't have tirne to be out there bother- ing with the world but I said the way it is they always got rne on radio and TV and the newspapers and magazines so then I can't escape that they be—they probing and seeing what arn I doing? And the vv*“o”_,tJ‘1d-sornething called the VVor1d Space Organization carne out other night at the Bottorn Line and they in- terviewed rne and they was asking rne about planet Saturn- And I was telling thern sorne arnazing things- PI-I: How did they react? SR: VVell, they were astounded. But I say well, you go back there to unintelligible, Alabama and each floor was a different color. And I say the floor for Saturn was black. I say therefore, so black people are—they're connected some kind of way with Saturn. I say it's right there. Now, for the Sun, like it's gold and the l\/Ioon is silver. Each planet got a different color and I saw the scale rnodel of it at the Rosacrucian J.\/Iuseurn- I'rn dealing with things that-.- the whole thing will have to be changed ‘cause always back there to what I call the Gilgaxnesh Epic but they call it sornething else but it's spelled G—I—G unintelligible...and I'm reading on the stones that was the Bible way back there it says that when the Gods created man, death they prepared for hirn. And that was written for the Bible. It's on the stone- VVhen the 39 Gods created man death they prepared for hirn. And you got Jesus saying I go to pre- pare a place for you. VVell, see._I'In putting all this together. Now, over in the Bahai Temple, and I really want to get some pic- tures of this, they got thirteen doors and over each got an inscription. On one it says I have Inade death a messenger of joy to man. And I went through a lot of interesting religions to see which one I wanted to get in- VVhen I saw that, well then I backed back. Because these people got these words around thern and they think it's just like sorne kind of play period toy but they're very serious and they about ready to just have a suzrnrnit rneeting and kill every rnan, wornan and child on this planet unless they get the answer to the problern- They rnust! Because they like in school you know. They in school. You've got to pass the test or do sornething and... I made a public broadcasting thing and I don't think it's played there (San Francisco) yet but I they rnight delete sorne things, but anyway, the rhythrn is fantastic and then I got——I do things spontaneously you know, and I got up and I said God says he don't want you any- rnore- And I repeat it several tirnes and the rnusic's coordinated perfectly in there. It's rnost wonderful and then I finally said God says he don't want you anyrnore. You've failed the test, you know the rest. (Laughs) Yeah, when people hear that they always smile. I don't have to tell thern what the rest is. Puts it right to thern- God said you failed the test, you know the rest. (Laughs) PI-I: That's great- SR: And then it goes on. I'm telling thern about what they doing, they hating one 40 another unintelligible and God say he don't want nothing to do with thern- On the very end which I rnight cut that out, I have to fade out, I say yes..-your father sent me to...the one you serving, your father, he has a nicegplace prepared for you. It's very cozy and warrn. Sornetirne it gets very hot- On the other hand it's an even ternperature and always just about the same ternperature- I said well recently, some black folks there tried to put the fire out and of course that Inade the ternperature change a little bit- I said then some white people from Philadelphia went down there to try and help thern put the fire out. That's all, I thought they weren't going to put it on there but they did- (Chuckles) I said but you know they're both where they belong. Everything is al- right, they're at horne where they belong. Now I suppose---I say I'rn going to see if they got freedom. of speech- So they put it on there in Philadelphia. I don't know wheth- er they going to put it—whether they going to release it out there to the other‘cities but I was quite surprised. I was sitting up there afterwards listening to the radio and they played that. I said I-know they're going to cut that out about Philadelphia but they didn't- But the rnain point is Ine saying your father sent me to give you a rnessage- He has a place prepared for you. I said there's a lot of storrns about here in Philadelphia but he says it's very nice and warrn and cozy what he has prepared for you. So I'rn doing sorne things...For a reason I've just been staying away frorn people ‘cause you know, they got their AIDS out there and all kind of things and I'm telling thern this does not have to be. It does not have to be. You see, for five years I've been telling fellows in the band 41 these people are not worshipping the Creator- And he's tired of thern ignoring hirn. I-Ie's getting tired of thern ignoring him so the next thing he going to do, he's going to throw sornething on thern that's going to startle the world and rnake thern think about hirn- I said he's going to strike .at their sex. I-Ie going to corne up with sorne kind of ailrnent that's going to startle the world- And they going to be practically afraid to have sex. In this way they're going to have to think about hirn or sornething else. And sure enough——And I told thern that for the last five years and I've been telling thern that- And it happened too- Now he going to strike right at—The way they corne here is through sex. I-Ie going to strike right there- So they'll know they better start thinking about hirn. Unintelligible to worship hirn- But give credit where credit is due and realize that they're at the Inercy of sorne other forces. They can kill every rnan, wornan and child on this planet and stop birth and I said their Inain pleasure is sex- He's going to strike there. Prepare for it. I told thern that- Now the band has said, well yes you told us- I'll tell theni sornething else. That does not have to be- It does not have to be. It could disappear off the face of the Earth just like it carne. VVhen they start to thinking right kind of thoughts about their place and what they should do. Recognize sorne superior intelli- gence and they will be helped. But as long as they think they can do it by thernselves they going to be in trouble, trouble, trouble. Fellow told me that he went to Paris. He went in to a big library there in Paris and he went up there and they got a videotape of me. And I'm saying that the people on Earth don't really care, trouble going to find a nest 42 in their hair. A teenager, and he was singing it to rne. And he was surprised when he went there. And it's up in the library- So you see, I have to Inake a Inove now and say What I got to say like I did today. I said that you have many rninisters on the planet but I'rn an arnbassader you know. Arnbassador take precedence over rninisters. l\/Iinisters exactly represent the governrnent of the Creator. He does have a governrnent. I'rn now an an1bass—— ador of that governrnent and I can speak and change things. I can change things by simply saying so- And I don't need no army to do it either. In fact, I saw a fellow who gave rne‘ the keys to the city and gave rne the flag at Providence, Rhode Island- Now I heard a lot of people getting the keys to the city but I never heard about thern getting the flag. Now that has some significance- You know what it is? PI-I: No- SR: He gave rne the keys to the city and then he told I'rn going to give hirn the flag too. And he gave rne the flag. It's a flag frorn way back there with sorne Indians on there and a canoe and a unintelligible and so now later on in the Inonth he had a stroke so he was paralyzed so the people when I went up there again, they said it would do hirn so Inuch good if I went to visit hirn. Now, I don't like hospitals and things like that but I said well, I don't want to visit unless that I can help sornebody with their illness- Then I can't help thern- I ain't going over there. They said it would really help hirn so I thought about it and I went over there so I told him he didn't have to be in that wheel- chair. He had braces on his legs and he was 43 in a terrible condition. I told hirn that I didn't rnake no laws for hirn to be para- lyzed like that. And then he said-I told hixn the importance of rnusic so_ he said he had a lot of records he was listening to. I said whose records do you have? So he narned Herbie Hancock--.everybody but rne. And I said well, that rnusic is alright but you been listening to it, it hasn't helped you. Try rnine- So there we played in Providence, Rhode Island last week and he was there. He didn't speak to rne ‘cause I didn't get out for interrnission- I played straight through and after that I was in the dressing room with people talking but one of his friends carne back and said, "You know, the one you went to see at the hospital? He was here tonight." I asked his friend if he was in a wheelchair. He said, "Oh no, he's not in a wheelchair now and he's not paralyzed." He said, "It's just like you said- He's alright now. He got hirn an apartrnent, another job and he carne out to see you." So see, sorne- thing like that, I can do things by sirnply saying so- Like I told hirn: I don't like to see you in that wheelchair- You do not have to be- He said, "But the doctors said..-" But I say, I say you do not have to be in that Wheelchair. And you play rny rnusic, you'll get out. And so low and behold, he's out- Now with sornething like that I just have to get out there and change things- I have to change things by saying so- Now, if I didn't have the authority to do it, it would be like the rest of the Inen that they knew. But the Creator goes by what is said so like I played in Brooklyn, a feelow said he got up and announced, "This is Sun Ra. The voice of the living God." He announced that- Then nobody said nothing. Everybody sat around and 44 looked up there- Now, I played in Canada and then, I didn't tell the announcer that, he got up and said, "I want to present to you the ark angel, Sun Ra." Now, I didn't tell hixn to say that. But the Way this thing (is), we in a rnagic kingdorn. And whatever you say be-— cornes like a law- They were calling rne two things they never called anybody else: Voice of the living God and a ark angel- I said, well I've been saying I'rn an angel all along. Now they made Inc a ark angel- So I got un- intelligible. 'Cause I'rn always listening (to) voices and strange things. People say these strange things- I'rn thoroughly alert to there are voices that speak to us all the time. VVe have to be alert enough now to take what they're saying and" use it in a way that's beneficial for us and the rest of the world. ‘Cause the rest of the world in trouble and trouble is contageous you know. VVe don't need that. So we got beauty out there and everything. It's contageous too. And I'rn putting rnore and more out there everyday. I got some beautifu1——son:1ething I Inade the other night- A young violinist I've been trying to get rid of but he ain't going no- where you know- I talk about hirn and every- thing so the other night unintelligible (and Sun Ra says) I'rn going to call on you when you least expect it and I'rn going to be playing sornething you never heard before and that's when you play. He said, "flow can I?" I said, well you'll have to feel your way through. So sure enough, in the middle of the performance I started to play and I said you got it. (Laughs) PI-I: V\/ho is this violinist? SR: His narne is Owen. His last narne is 45 Owen- I don't know his first narne. I got it written son1ewhere-.-He's from Jarnaica so I'm saying-I was talking about that Jarnaicans are hard headed. I said I had a Jarnaican with me and he——the first tirne I met one—and he wrote a cornposition and was telling him What not to do and what he should do and what not to do because these nurnbers get stolen and suddenly he fighting against the law rnen- So he went on and he did it exactly what I told hirn not to do. So then he was corn- plaining about (it). So now he really unin- telligible. I said well, I told you- Didn't I tell you not to do what you did? Didn't you hear me? He said, "Yes, I heard you. But you didn't insist." And I said yes, the Jarnaicans, I heard that they hard (headed)—So then he said, "1\/Iy father's a Jamaican." He said, "You know, my father is hard headed too-" (Chuckles) So then I'm sitting there. I'm in trouble. I got the Jarnaican in here but he be hard headed but really, he go to school at the rnusic departrnent in Ternple University (Philadelphia) and he really is a nice person- I have to give it to hirn- He's very innocently nice. And so he played his violin. He played this song so beautifully the band had to turn around and applaud- Very delicate and very beautiful- Like nothing you had ever heard before- So I reckon he passed the test. But I'm really going to have to put that song out about the people that failed the test, ‘(PH and SR sirnultaneously) you know the rest. (Laughter) PH: That's great. SR: A sense of humor. I got to appeal to that. They'll understand. They'll feel...That.'s what I'rn talking about. The last thing I‘ was 46 saying on the radio was that, you know I said, God has a sense of humor. He's not like people think, harsh. He has a sense of hurnor. I said if you don't believe it, just each person go stand up and go and look in the rnirror and you can see his sense of hurnor. He made people. (Laughter) You know, we rnade in the irnage of God so that make God a joke too, don't it? They be changing thernselves right quick- (Laughter) I\/lakes hirn a joke too. I said well, they did treat hirn like a joke- They nailed hirn up up there on the cross and—as well they says hirn, you know they teaching that. VVe like in a rnagic kingdoxn. I'rn telling you, words can do things. They can do wonderful things and I think maybe I can get some results because I was talking to some black people in VVash—- ington. I said you know, yes, no black people ever signed the Declaration of Independence. I said now you got all these laws and white people Inaking everything but you can't be making those one sided treaty or one sided agreernent- Black people got to sign some- thing. And the white race say you free- The white race can't just sign that. So black people got to go and sign (that) yes I'rn free- VVe11 unfortunately they haven't. They have not signed no kind of proclaxnation. No kind of nothing. So therefore it's not legal- Any contract you got to have two parties sign. Right? VVel1, they better get busy and sign a declaration of sornething. They trying to do things one sided- You cannot do things one sided when you dealing in law. And I said yes it is and so he carne over here—and these people carne over here in slavery whatever and they did not get naturalization. You have to be naturalized when you come into a country- I said what you got to do is, you 47 go back-Like I told hirn——I said you go back there and you naturalize your great, great, great grandfather, whoever carne in here- You go and you naturalize thern. They said but they dead- I said it don't make no diffe—— rence. It's just delayed naturalization, that's all. You go, you notarize it and you make your ancestors legal citizens. You don't have to be hollering about legal rights. You al- ready got it ‘cause you got your naturali- zation paper for your ancestors- He said, ''How can we do that?" I said well, they sitting over there in their tent now- Said that body that's sitting there, it ain't none of yours, it belongs to your rnother and father and their body belong to their rno— ther and father and see, you can go all the way on back and you'll find the sarne body that was started then is sitting over there in that chair- So since you got their body, you go right on and naturalize it. Now they never heard nothing like that before but they were astounded. I said yeah, you make yourself equal and you prepare your own law of what you going to do, see? Like I said sornething in California and they downplayed that but I'm going to say it again. I said I'm a black Gentile and the Bible said the Gentiles were a law unto themselves. So I can go and rnake my own law if I'm a Gentile. It says the Gentiles are a law to thernselves. So they Inake their own laws- That it's better for rne to be a Gentile if I can make my own laws. Like I said, I'rn frorn planet Saturn and I'rn on a certified and notarized that I arn frorn planet Saturn- And so what? Lo and behold it is true- Because why? I rnade a law that it's true. That's the way you make truth be. You pass your law to unintelligible. Like for instance unintelligible, you can't jaywalk. 48 Now, there ain't nothing wrong with walking across the street but if they say that that's the law that you shouldn't walk across that street then they can fine you. And you're not doing nothing wrong, you're breaking the law. So I can make a law that say (it's) against the law for somebody say I'm not from planet Saturn- (Chuckles) But I can also rnake a law that eVerybody's welconrie to visit planet Saturn- And then lo and behold it be- comes a reality. Sirnply because why? I said so and I rnade it a law and people always saying that it is written. You see? It is written. And Hitler wrote his book first, l\/Iein Karnp and he begin to do exactly what he said he was going to do- He had the book. And all of thern write their books. So it's like the 1\/Iuslirns got their books and the Christians got their book and they go by the book. And the judges don't never—They have to have that book on the bench in order to condern people or whatsoever. You got to have.a book. So I got my Irnrneasurable Equation- I reckon that's another book. I put that out there and they can read that and sornething can happen- Sornething can happen. PI-I: So what have you been working on on the keyboard lately? SR: IVIostly,I'rn playing the piano. In fact, in Vvashington they always have an electronic piano for rne. I told thern that this tirne I want a baby grand so they got the piano- PI-I: So niainly piano lately? SR: Yes, I'In doing _rnore piano lately and people can really hear better what I'm doing. 49 PI-I: That's nice. A lot of people out here (San Francisco) have rnissed_ the opportunity to hear you play piano so it's a treat. SR: Yeah, well more and more I';rn branching out on the piano and I'rn getting sorne results ‘cause a piano player told rne at this broad—— cast station at the New York Times. He told rne first that he carne to Carnagie Hall and he was very thrilled by the piano concert... PI-I: At the (Newport) Jazz Festival. SR: And then he came out and he heard us playing and he said I was doing sornething so different he went horne and practiced six hours. A piano player in there. But rnostly I've been featuring horns and not the piano- For another piano player—In fact I got to find this tape-I-Ie sent rne sorne tapes frorn Ger- rnany, a top pianist- VVait a rninute, France- And he's a top classical piano player and he sent nie sorne tapes hirnself and he was send- ing rne a ticket to corne to Carnagie Hall to see his concert because you see, he likes the Way I play the piano. He wanted rne to know he's listening and he wanted to rneet rne per- sonally. PI-I: That's very nice- SR: So there's two piano players...Yeah, it is quite nice- And I think what real1y—This girl said sornething about what really turned thezrn on was sorne kind of way he got ahold of this record where I'rn playing Prelude in C# rninor by Rachrnaninoff- He heard that- And that real1y.-.rnade hirn rny friend you rnight say. So I'm hitting over into the class(ica1)—-— I'In playing a very beautiful nurnber where 50 I'rn featuring l\/Iarshall (Allen). It's a Chopin nurnber. And it goes (sings rnelody).-.'I‘hat’s a very beautiful rnelody. It's been rnade into alballet and all. But I'm featuring I\/Iarshall on it and he really playing it. And people are really surprised. VVel1, I'm going to do some more classic there. I like beautiful classical rnelodies. It's so wonderful to hear them. I will present thern more and more playing classical melodies and I will put my arrange- rnent on them and we'll do.-.Yeah, the poten- tials are rnarvelous- 'Cause then I can go and play all aspects of my rnusic. Play the blues, play the classical, just play everything. 51 ¢()l~lVE RSATI Oh! WITH PETER I-IIINIDS NOVEAABER 4, ‘I991 SAN FRANCISCO, CA Jothan Callins: I played with hirn (Sun Ra) in the late sixties and I've done a lot of different stuff like a masters and a doctor- ate in ethnornusicology and a lot of it is based on his..-. Peter Hinds: VVhat colleges? JC: I went to Florida A&1\/I University. I got a masters in the doctorate program at the University of Pittsburgh and I"I1’1 basically what they call an ethnornusicologist but I've started a lot of stuff. I was the founder of they Alabarna Jazz Hall of Fame and the National Black Culture Society out of Birrn-— ingharn, Alabarna and was one of the found- ing fathers of City Stages where Sun Ra played three years ago. So anyway, I wrote the first letter to get all that stuff started- But the thing is....I'rn a trurnpeter. I've played the trurnpet, I've played the bass, I've played the keyboards (and) I cotnpose. But a lot of this stuff that I'rn about today is because,of Sun Ra and a lot of folks, they don't understand it- They don't understand because people want to say maybe you give up farnily, you give up this, you give up farne, you give up rnoney. They don't under- stand it though- It's in a sense like Sun Ra. A lot of people don't understand Sun Ra. They like to use hirn for his farne and his infarny and for his brilliance and his great- ness- They don't truly understand hirn. They don't understand What he's about- But I look at rnyself as part of this continuurn. Alabarna has produced a lot of great people but it so happens that's Where he's frorn. I'm very proud of it- I've played with Lionel I-Iarnp—- ton. I've played with a lot of great bands but I look at rnyself as part of this continuuni 52 and to some degree the role that Sun Ra has played in my life in terms of the creativity, in terms of the‘ music, the terms of forging ahead because there's always obstacles...these various isrns. People want to say, you're a doctorate in music, why are you playing with Sun Ra? I just think the fact that you can even ask a question like that is outrageous because then you pre suppose that if you're into some doctorate prograrn— or this or that, then it's a matter of disassociation when to me it rnight be just the opposite. You look at Sun Ra like you look at all these people out here with these doctorates, degrees and a lot of this high falootin, ultra, so called class things. They're not in synch with the cosmic world and so they aren't in synch with Sun Ra and too often what happens...People like to say somebody was before their tirne. That's great- But Sun Ra is an advancer and mover. He's a front runner and he's moving ahead. Not with the aid of the so called powers. It's not CBS, it's not NBC. He's too real. He's so real that they're afraid of hirn. So they deal with these lesser kinds of situations because he don't jive. He's one of a kind. 53 ARTIC LE 8: IBITERVIEVV FRCV TI-IE BERKELEY BARB VVI§ITTEl~l BY: ElV\ JULY 23-29. 1971 And here, by God, is Sun Ra and the Ark- estra. Sun Ra himself , squat and dark and square as a mahogany carving of a’ Dahorny demon, sits surrounded on three sides with electronic equipment connected to a keyboard whereon, at intervals in the proceedings, he conjures the music of very strange spheres. His face is crowned by a bright metal wire arrangement, something like the device Dr. Zarkov invented to prevent his thoughts from being picked up by the telepathy machines of l\/Iing the Ivlerciless. VVh_ile Sun Ra is not himself playing, and often when he is, a chorus of saxophones, large bore flutes, and assorted wind melo- dians toot and honk prorniscuously as taxis in a fourth of July trafic jarn. Various drum- rners pursue independent intentions. Dancers flit across the front of the stage, occasionally triggering themselves into violent epiletoid convulsions; muscles firing randomly left arm left arm right arm right leg left arm like a puppet being shaken by the strings. Throughout it all, Sun Ra sits beaming behind his keyboard, pilot lights and dials glowing dirnly on his electronics, nodding his head blissfully, yes, at the changing tides of sound. ‘ ‘ The chaos is subject to limits of energy; it builds deafeningly, and then subsides, the drummers drummed out; the saxes blown out; the dancers danced out. 54 VVhen the tide has ebbed cornpletely, Sun Ra touches his keys again for the space of a srnall riff, which throbs out an intense brief message of great glad good tidings- Intense and rnelodic, like a God reorganizing his universe for another cycle. The Arkestra revives and takes up the new irnpulse: Sun Ra lifts his hands from the ‘keys, his Inission accomplished, and sits back to contemplate the growth, and inevitable of his new order. Ivlernbers of the audience add their own ideas: behind us is a heavy set dude who can whistle piercingly with two fingers in his mouth, and does so at frequent intervals. And tonight's performance is attended, by invitation, by Kailas Shugendo Buddists (who firewalk, arnong other things, when they are not at Sun Ra devotionals), dressed in robes that are a cross between Rob Roy and Friar Tuck. Each Buddist is equipped with a Ine- diurn sized, lirnp horn which emits a lowing, plaintive note when sounded. It is, as Allen Ginsberg—who is also there- says, as much religion as music, a sort of African sound Ineditation. And if you relax, and are patient (The Arkestra plays for three or four hours at a time, continuously). the sounds do seem to knock thoughts lose inside you. Sun Ra has been doing this for some time, most of it under the narne of Sun Ra. Poss- ibly he has another one, but no one knows who it is (is) telling, and since 1946——when he began gigging for Fletcher Henderson's band at the Club DeLisa in Chicago, it's been Sun 55, Ra. By the 60's, Sun Ra and the l\/Iyth——Science Arkestra had moved to New York, with what Leroi Jones calls their "priestly calling" al- ready in mind. "So Sun Ra," Jones wrote in this period, "who knows something of the Vvisdorn Religion itself, uses this knowledge to Inake his music a bridge to higher hurnan principals. Sun Ra speaks of the actual change, the actual evolution through space, not only in space ships, but of higher princi- pals of hurnanity, the progress after the death of the body." Sun Ra's newest gig is at the University of California, where he is chairing an informal serninar. We found out about it at the con- cert, and the next day at three, we went to VVhee1er to hear sornething about the Vvisdorn Religion. I knew I was in the right place. Corning down the hall, un—rnistakab1e and strange in Wheeler (architected in the l\/Iiddle American blockhouse functional) was the heavy sweet, almost but not quite cloying scent that su— rrounds Sun Ra wherever he goes, the result of vigorous, heavy and continual applications of a substance Sun Ra calls lernon oil. B/Iost smells you stop smelling after a very short time: Sun Ra's lernon oil you do not. It bill-- ows out from his person, the rays from Sun Ra's black sun. Sun Ra is seated in a classroom by a window, two or three members of the Arkestra wait- ing watchfully around the room, in conver- sation with an intense young Afro-—-Arnerican studies faculty member who is putting toge- 56 ther the final arrangernents for his course. Afro is worrying that not enough people would find out about the course: The poss- ibility doesn't worry Sun Ra at all. Some of the people are going to find him; the right people, the people that want to find hirn. Sotne people won't and that's all right. "Sorne folks ain't going to Inake it; if they don't move fast enough, they gonna get left out." After Sun Ra has finished Inaking arrange- rnents, we ask hirn for an interview. He cheerfully consents, but asks to move out—- side, into the Sun. We go out onto Sproul Plaza, toward Telly, and Sun Ra begins to talk. ''Some people," he says, "had some ideas I was going to save the world." He shrugs. "It's not my world. How can I save it? All I got to talk about is folks getting together. In a big Universe like this, I thought, there ought to be something better than what there is." "Right now," he continues glornily, "there's an emergency, the world on the verge of being destroyed. The fish in the seas are dying, the anirnals in the forests- Just last week, they were dying in the zoo." "The nations are quarreling arnong them- selves. They've got to cooperate. They've got to trust one Inan enough so they set hixn up as a counselor." "Excuse rne, Sun Ra," says an earnest kid in a derby hat, "if you had it to do all over again, what would you do?" 57 The kid rneans, if you had the whole Uni- verse to do all over again. "I'd rernake people first," says Sun Ra- "Along with a desire for freedorn, I'd give thern a desire for discipline. If they're will- ing to die for freedorn they should be will- ing to live for discipline." And a disciple of Sun Ra has appeared from nowhere and puts a glass of orange juice in Sun Ra's hand. "A lot of people say the truth will rnake you free. But not if it's a bad truth. What people need is some discipline- If they don't get it, they'll rnake terrible errors." We ask about his class, to change the sub-— ject. "It's probably the strangest class in the Whole world," says Sun Ra happily. "Sorne people just aren't ready for it. It has to be where the people are who are ready, who are sin-—- cere." "At first, I was only going to have black people come to the course, but then I said, let nature take its course." The truth concer-— ning the Universe is rnore important than any black person or any white person, or any Japanese person." "A lot of people won't like it. I can't help it if I give them some light and they see what horrible Inonsters they are." "Excuse me Sun Ra," says the derby hatted kid again. "VVhen you leave here, where are 58 you going?" He rneans, when you leave the planet. Sun Ra looks. at hirn. "I'rn not here now. This is my shadow." I-Ie glances balefully clown Telly. "I wouldn't set foot on a planet like this. It all looks like a dream to me. It couldn't be real. It's too big a nightrnare." And he goes on again to tell how he would rearrange things. "I'd take all the best and put thern together- You have an unballanced world if you just help the people on the bottorn, and never think about the rest. You can't have no bottom unless you have a top." "But it's got to have discipline. Everything I do has got to be precision and discipline." And with precision and discipline, the world has now arranged itself to facilitate the de- parture of the shadow of Sun Ra. A red l\/[G has pulled up to the curb, and waits, in the rniddle of traffic. Sun Ra takes no official notice of its presence, continuing to speak, taking as his next utterance of I\/Iax Roach, the drummer: "The only sin a rnan can corn—- rnit is to die." The Ix/IG is now parked rather close to the center of the second or third rnost congested autoxnobile traffic center in Berkeley. It stays there: rniraculously; there are no horns, no indignant curses. A disciple begins, slowly and deliberately to store various of Sun Ra's belongings in the 59 back, one srnall case, one neat package, after another- Everything is soon ready, but Sun Ra is not. The driver and Sun Ra's disciple display rnill—— ernetric gestures of impatience, so minute it is impossible to be sure of their interpreta- tion. Still Sun Ra is not through, and the 1\/[G stays like a rock in a river. lVIy friend Linda asks hixn why his work has gained more acceptance arnong whites than black audiences. Sun Ra looks around- The scent of lemon oil is overpowering. "That's because white people are looking for something else." "They have everything, and they want some- thing else. It's something rnissing from the whole race-" l\/Iajestically, Sun Ra seats himself in the IVIG. The door which has remained open all this time, is closed for him, and the door closer cliznbs on the trunk. The car rolls away, leaving a faint scent of lemon oil and unburned hydrocarbons. 60 AKESTRA BERKELEY, CA APRIL 1981 PHOTOS: JOHN HINDS o PETER I-uubs ° SUN RA JUNE TYSON DANNY THOMPSON N E I. L A L L A H S M DANNY THOMPSON SUN RA ATTHE GREATPYRAMID Allko EGYPT DECEMBER 1971 PHOTOS: HARTMUT GEERKEN PEOPLE LIRE To SAY SOME- BODY wAs BEFORE THEIR TIME. THAT'S GREAT. BUT suN RA Is AN ADvAN<ER AND MOVER. HE's A ERoNT RUNNER AND HE's MOVING AHEAD. NoT wITH THE AID oI= THE so <ALLED I>owERs. IT'S NoT css, IT's NoT NBC. HE's Too REAL. HE's so REAL THAT TH EY’RE AERAID oI= HIM. so THEY DEAL wITH THEsE LEssER RINDs oI= sITuATIoNs BECAUSE HE DON'T JIVE. HE's oNE OF A KIND JOTHAN CAI.I.INS NOVEMBER 4, 1991 I LIRE BEAuTII=uL <LAssIcAL MELoDIEs. IT'S so woN- DERFUL TO HEAR THEM- I wILL PREsENT THEM MORE AND MORE PLAYING cLAssIcAL MELoPIEs. AND I wILL PUT MT ARRANGE- MENTs oN THEM AND wILL DO . . . TEAH, THE PoTEN- TIALs ARE MARvELous. '<AusE THEN I cAN «:0 AND PLAT ALL AsPEcTs or MT MusI<. PLAT THE BLUES, PLAT THE <LAssIcAL, IusT PLAT EVERYTHING. SUN RA DECEMBER 25, 1987
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-35
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 37 (1999)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 1999-01-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: _. .2. . . __.......... f... Z: :: 4.... _ ._ ...._...__........ .7 : . .2. . .2. . _....._____ ::_:.___ _:.. ¢_ _. .__:...‘\ W__T_._.__._ _ . _ ... _..,_. :__ :.. L .. ﬁx Ks. 4.». on x ...\ ..........§........_.. ..:.:... SUN RA RESEARCH SUN RA‘SEPT. 10,1972 1 SUN RA'0<T.26, 1989 . . . . .. 18 SUN RAJAN. 3,1990 . . . . . ..24 SUN RA'SEPT. 29,1990 33 SUN RAvSEPT. 30,1986 54 F.MORA'JULY 29,1998 59 351: IT: r:=I+Z5El~.l >:-:-:-:-. - :-'-:-;-:-' ‘-<.~.~:»:-. :=t;:;:;:A:; (-2-).- ;§;!;:::x. :-:-:-'1:-. :"'~‘*~‘~:1 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 37 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1999 $6.00 » OUTSIDE u.s.: $7.00 OMNI PRESS ‘ P.O. BOX 786 ‘ MILLBRAE, CA 94030 E-MAI L: 0mnis0nic@webIv.net WEB SITE: www.sunraresearch.c0m INTERVIEW A1‘ "I"I-IE Al~ll~l AIXBCJIX BLIJ ES ARI I) JAZZ FESTIVAL Ahlhl ARBQIX, AAI- %SE I"'I"E~\BEI? ‘ID, 1972 Interviewer: I'rn interested in trying to hear you verbalize what your who...
Show more_. .2. . . __.......... f... Z: :: 4.... _ ._ ...._...__........ .7 : . .2. . .2. . _....._____ ::_:.___ _:.. ¢_ _. .__:...‘\ W__T_._.__._ _ . _ ... _..,_. :__ :.. L .. ﬁx Ks. 4.». on x ...\ ..........§........_.. ..:.:... SUN RA RESEARCH SUN RA‘SEPT. 10,1972 1 SUN RA'0<T.26, 1989 . . . . .. 18 SUN RAJAN. 3,1990 . . . . . ..24 SUN RA'SEPT. 29,1990 33 SUN RAvSEPT. 30,1986 54 F.MORA'JULY 29,1998 59 351: IT: r:=I+Z5El~.l >:-:-:-:-. - :-'-:-;-:-' ‘-<.~.~:»:-. :=t;:;:;:A:; (-2-).- ;§;!;:::x. :-:-:-'1:-. :"'~‘*~‘~:1 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 37 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1999 $6.00 » OUTSIDE u.s.: $7.00 OMNI PRESS ‘ P.O. BOX 786 ‘ MILLBRAE, CA 94030 E-MAI L: 0mnis0nic@webIv.net WEB SITE: www.sunraresearch.c0m INTERVIEW A1‘ "I"I-IE Al~ll~l AIXBCJIX BLIJ ES ARI I) JAZZ FESTIVAL Ahlhl ARBQIX, AAI- %SE I"'I"E~\BEI? ‘ID, 1972 Interviewer: I'rn interested in trying to hear you verbalize what your whole scene is about. I Inean what it is you're trying to say. I mean you say a lot of things specifically ‘cause it's very unique, it's very different. Sun Ra: VVell, it concerns infinity of every- thing and that rnakes this slightly difficult to really define and so since rnusic is a lan- guage I'rn putting these irnpressions over p ‘ into Inusic. Sometimes reach a point where I have to add sort of talking, singing sort of. And then sometime reach the point where I have to use dancing, expressions by the hands. It's all rnusic anyway. But then I have to use the hurnan body as instruxnents and that's why I have dancers with rne now. And I have to use the voice as an instrurnent... VVell, I'd say the hurnan voices but then everybody with two legs is not really hunian. So sorne people I'rn considering as angelic. So therefore I'rn doing sorne things on an angelic plane too. (I'rn) convinced that sorne of the people on the planet that think they are hurnan are not really of the hurnan race, they. are the angel race- So then the rnusic have to cover both points, the angel race and the hurnan race and whatever else rnight be here. Even they said rnusic soothes the sav- age beast so then a lot of people seern to have the savage beast in thern these days so then Inusic becornes very irnportant for the planet from all points. And that's all I'rn covering this wide irnpossible field of <‘ doing things you see? It cornes to that point: Irnpossibility. VVhat I really want to do really is the irnpossible creed and I know that but I feel that everything possible has been done to rnake this a better planet and it's no need 1 of Ine beating my head up against a stone wall trying to do the possible- And I feel a lot of people waste their tirne and good intents and energies through the ages trying to do sornething really worthwhile which was-..They was trying to do it through the -possible thing so I'rn seeking to ‘do sorne- thing through the irnpossible plane of things and feeling that the positive aspect has been used on the planet up to the point of no further progress of the possible. Events on the planet every day-You look at a news- paper and you can see that everything has reached a standstill stage in relationships larnong nations and organizations and every- thing is standing still. Governrnents don't know what to do. They be trying to do sorne I things but, with good intent, possibly with more good intent than governrnents ever had. I rnean, I unintelligible feel that the govern- rnents on Earth today are half as bad as the governrnents in the past. They trying to do sorne things but they can't seern to rnake any headway. Therefore if the people want a better World and the governrnents want a better World, you still don't have one. There's sornething wrong. Sornething they, they not doing equational- That everything has to be done equational. The things thats happening to the planet now Was set up by an equation. And people have to follow cer- tain codes. Things was set up and they have to follow it although they don't Want to. Sornething they inherited I would say. I: VVhat kind of a connection? Do you feel like you're Inaking a connection to this ini- possible plane you're trying to open things onto? Sun Ra: VVell yes. I feel that if I rea1ly.-.if the people really had a chance to see What I'm doing as Inuch as they do, as rnuch as ;, they see other artists or hear other artists I then they would know- But at this point I T__——" haven't been exposed to the public Inuch. Either by...Never by television and very seldorn by radio and not, I haven't been exposed to the public by commercial records g either -because I really wasn't seeking‘that ‘ like l‘I1OSt rnusicians seeking to be known and i rnoney and all that. I never really wanted , ‘that- But we just Inade a rnovie in California %_ (Space Is the Place) at least about four rnonths ago and it's supposed to be cina- ranria. It's in color and it's a outer space movie so I'rn talking sorne things in there about the world and substituting another destiny for the world because now I'rn speaking, even in my rnusic, about an alter destiny for the planet which is totally an irnpossible thing. But I feel that the destiny of the planet is doorned so therefore the only thing that can stop it is an alternative des- tiny- That is a substitute destiny. Got to have a destiny so a destiny is just like the President of the United States is President, then you got a Vice President in case the President is incapacitated some way. So it corne to the point where the destiny of the people's sick. Can't go any further. So then they can let the vice destiny step in. And that's what I'rn talking about- Now I'In talk- ing about the vice destiny for the planet which is the substitute destiny or the second 4 destiny. Like you go along a road and then you corne to a detour. And that's what I‘rn saying. That hurnanity got to take a detour because the road they on is the right road, but sornething happened to it. Sornething 3 happened to it. Too rnany people who stand for right have been wasted, elirninated. So therefore on that road of the right, the right road has led to lot of disasters for people. So therefore that road isn't too good at this point. So they have to take a detour. I: I'm going to try...I mean, I hate to like try and rephrase things that you're saying, right? -But in other words you're saying people ought to step back, right? I mean, you're saying take it...In other words for exarnple, going on right here", The Rainbow People's Party, there's a whole lot of organ- ization on a 'very concrete level frorn day care centers and free food clinics and I rnean free clinics, that kind of stuff - Are you—I mean is that a direction that you don't see people should be going? SR: You Inean a lot of people that coordinate together to give this festival? I: Right, and are doing very kind of concrete work in the community. SR: VVell, I think it's very good for people to, in a community, to bring the varied things of the world to the community. That's the way it should be. I found out in Europe in the places we played, Denmark, Finland and Holland, France and they would often see to it that the people see all kind of entertainment. Because different groups represent their different races or their diffe- rent ethnic structures and it's good for people to see. They stay at home rnost the time. It's good for the world to corne- unintelligible. All of thern can't go out in the world but the world can corne to thern. It's sirnpler in a sense through the artists. Because they giving impressions of things and they representing things. I: So where does that conect with the vice?.. I forget the word you used. SR: The vice destiny? The alternative des- tiny? VVell, it's just that the world has reached a very sad state of things. It's not supposed to be like that. I'm always talking about happiness myself. The whole thing- Even in the tragic aspect of the world today. It's really in a sense arnusing when you look at it because it's so ridiculous unintelligible. It's a case of where you just have to have a sense of humor. The instant the planet gets a sense of humor it will learn to really laugh at it errors and about how wrong it is. If they can see how ridiculous they are and how wrong sorneiof the things they doing. As far as their own personal advantage is concerned, well then you know, cry and you cry alone, and laugh and the world laughs with you. So I feel that everyone should have a sense of humor. VVhen they get unintellligible sense of humor they can look in the rnirror and they can laugh at thernselves first and see how ridiculous they are and see how liinited they are and how they don't really stand a chance in this setup. Nobody, white not black not yellow not anything or red. No one stands a chance in the setup on the planet fl“OI‘I1 one end of the world to the other. They don't stand a chance. They all go the sanie way. So then of course I'm looking at it from a realistic point of view. That as far as I'm concerned, the planet isn't satisfactory to rne when I look at it from a high view- point of another type of spiritual level. Not a religious level ‘cause I don't consider my- self as righteous or holy. But just looking at it frorn a natural level in coordination with nature itself. I can see that the planet isn't what it should be because everybody unin- telligible to have things and be happy and people should be helping one another and all nations instead of fighting one another. But the way it is set up has been people have been cornpelled to fight to survive with their different structures of govern- Inents- Have to fight against one another which is really all wrong- They got a lot of things to do in the Universe as far as exploring space and all these different things. So they really don't have tirne to fight one another but because all the pettiness arnong thexnselves, they cornpelled to waste time and energies fighting one another. They cornpelled to hate one another. VVell then that's the problein- And rnany nations have tried to do sornething about it and philo- sophers and poets and reforrners of all type. And they ended up all ernbittered, frustrated. They didn't see no Way out. But I do see a way out. It's just irnpossible aspect of things where I have been dealing rnostly with black people trying to get thern to see because black people in this country, some of them, have been in a very, they are in a very peculiar position. And even the black men of Africa repeatedly say so. And even one of thern from Cuba has said, 1\/Iongo Santa- Inaria, expressed the fact that black people in this country are in a different position from even the black people in Cuba so...It is quite true. They be in a peculiar position, ‘different from all the rest of the men in the world is a strange experience. But it is true about some of the black people in this country. Now some black people in this country, they get along all right. They've gotten a lot of help from white people and from black people. But sorne of thern like Inyself are, well, I haven't really gotten that help and neither black nor white really know what I represent. And I'rn part of the country, part of the planet and inter- nationally known. But still, particularly in Arnerica, they don't really know what I'rn representing or what I stand for. Nor have they really seriously look at the equations I'rn talking about, about hurnanities rela- tionship to each other. And I'rn really talking about the survival of a planet. But it was all hidden from the fact that I was trying to see that you can't really do anything to help a planet unless you can help the lowest rnan- And I considered some black people in Arnerica the lowest Inan. So basically speaking, that's why I was talking about black. But as I said, some black people even during slavery or so called slavery, they had it good. I mean some black rnen didn't have to do anything. Just go out and breed child- ren. Didn't have nothing to worry about. They were breeders. I : VVhat? SR: Breed children, breed slaves. I-Iave wo- rnan in one quarter, woman over in another plantation. That's all they had to do. Just bring sorne Inore slaves into the world. So I imagine they were well fed cornparitively speaking. They were just breeders and... I: No freedom in there. SR: VVell I mean they didn't worry about freedom- VVell I rnean they had sexual pleasures all the tirne- So who would worry about freedorn under those circumstances? If they just becarne...just strictly physical and not spiritual at all. So then that happened. So then in Axnerica I can see two type of black Inen now- You got the spiritual Inan and you got the physical black rnan. And I can't say that seerningly Arnerican whites are just giv- ing the physical black man all of the breaks and the spiritual black rnan hadn't really been noticed. And yet I notice them all the time. I see thern. But every tirne I see one they be in a poor position. They don't have things to work with. And I see some more black men that's got all kind of things to work with and they don't have any particular creative talent. They might have talent but you know actually any country should back those who are just naturally creative too besides those who are irnitative or cornrnercially succesful. Because it's a natural thing- It's really the foundation of everything and that goes for the natural artists too. And I don't feel that Arnerican whites have really given the natural, a certain natural black artists a chance. And therefore because they haven't done that, they don't really understand the black rnan. And that's Why they don't understand hirn. Because they haven't, they haven't given everybody’ a chance. They think they have- They think all black people Want just to integrate or some- thing like that. But there are some black people that actually want sornething that's spiritually correct. At least for thernselves. Not trying to convert the world because the World's a big place. One man's rneat is anothers poison so you can't go out convert- ing everybody to a particular idea unless it's...So you don't convert thern. They either .nations on the planet. Because Pin a highly is or they is not. And so then it corne down to a point that what I'm doing...I'In not really fighting against the world, I'n1 just _being rne. But then I've been developing all along that the world seerningly was holding me back. Sorne people, Inusicians _felt that. But no, I'1n just developing myself. But‘ it reach a point where developrnent is stretched out to the infinity and because that fact now, what I'm doing is relevant to all evolved spiritual being now and I can tell Asorne people things to get thernselves to- gether. Because I know what it is to be disciplined . I: VVe're in a situation where things are con- cretely a certain way now and how what you talking about is going to rnove us through into sornething new? SR: VVell I would say that the Earth black rnan...(tape problem for a few seconds)... they unintelligible progress and becorning a part of this society in achieving sornething and being succesful. But then the spiritual black rnan hasn't been really noticed or given a chance because he hasn't asked for any- thing. I-Ie's perfectly at peace, harrnonious with himself. So then he not asking the world for anything. Not wanting to be a part of it. Not wanting to be a part—I-Ie already had this happiness in his rnind and I would feel that the radiation from people of that kind of happiness of rnind could radiate out to the ‘ whole planet and they could feel it. They begin to see things through these particular people. VVhereas I'd say the Earth black rnan or the physical black rnan—I\/Iany rnen have invented things and all that in the black race : Egypt didn't , and the people have benefited by it. But the spiritual black rnan, not the religious, I'rn not speaking about then: although they rnight be spiritual. I don't know since _I'rn not on that plane- But I do know that spiritually speak- ing, frorn another kind of definition of spirit- ual which is not like what these people talk about. The world knows nothing about it. The only place it carne where they did know a little bit about it was ancient Egypt. But then it was concealed. It was turned upside down in all kind of ways. Priests of ancient really wasn't particular about whether folks knew it or not. They just went underground you rnight say. In the world today they are seriously, seriously Inisled in some way because you have to judge a tree by the fruit. It's a lot of confusion on this planet. In Inost schools you got the more confusion and the more churches the Inore confusion and the rnore rnodern governrnents you get and the rnore, where governrnents really are set to help the help the masses. The more confusion you got then there's sornething seriously wrong. And it's outside of hurnan control. It's sornething that's supervising the disorder on the planet. And whoever supervising is a rnaster at main- taining the planet full of confusion and bevvilderrnent and destruction. And it still rnoves on. It take a rnaster to do that. I: A lot of people talk about the systern, the Inaterialist systern and being a capitalist systern airned at keeping sorne people down- SR: VVell, I don't really feel like that. I don't really feel like that. Although I've experienced some things where it seerned that way. But then on this planet a lot of things are made 10 to seern to be and people get that in their Ininds and it's like that. And that's what the whole thing is about- To rnake you think sornething is when it's not. But actually... I just feel that people in the dark. And they don't understand 'cause they got a lot of problems. Something that keeps thern with problems like having to have money in order to exist. They feel that they can't exist with- out rnoney. Sorne black people feel that way too. Although I told a black wornan last ‘week. . .She was talking about the Inoney and I told her that black people can live Without money. I'm not worried about no money myself. So she said well, that you got to have rnoney. And I said but black people in this country lived 400 years without rnoney- She said well, no! That's not true. I said yes it is. They was over in slavery. They called it slavery. They didn't get any money. And she said, well, are you sure? Said sure I'rn sure they didn't get any money. And she say and no clothe_s? I said no clothes- No food? I said not really, the unintelligible food. No house? I said no nothing. They existed 400 years with nothing. And that's never happ- ened before in the history of the World. So now I say any black person that corne up and tell me they got to have money, history makes a liar out of thern. Because they've dernonstrated to the World you do not have to have money to exist. Now other nations can't say that. Because they haven't had that experience you know. But this one, they can say that. So she had to accept it. But she didn't want to. I: There's a lot of black people that are angry. A lot of anger. 11 SR: VVell, they should be. I think an angry black person is a sincere person. Because not only should black people be angry, every white person should be angry and every yellow person and every red person should be angry at what hurnanity's had to suffer thousands and thousands of years. This should be a very angry planet. VVanting to know frorn God why...or frorn the Creator why, why does hunianity have to die and suffer? And they should all rise up in one big angry cry frorn every throat on the planet: VVhy...do we have to die? And they should be asking that because after all the first law of nature is self preservation- And they should start asking sorne questions. Because the way it is, it's a setup. It's a trap set for people and can't nothing help thern. I don't overlook the fact that Arnerica rnight just turn and startle the world one day soon. There's nobody else to do it right now. In fact, they have to do it. They have to stop and listen to every voice that's saying sornething different. Because this country was setup for that anyway. It's supposed to give everybody an opportunity. Even the strangest sort of voice should be listened to now. It niight be the voice that could lead the way- The voice in the wilderness so to speak. And this is still a wilderness you know. I: So then you don't think it's doorned? It doesn't sound like... SR: VVell, not really. According to the Bible if the wicked will turn and do that which is right he shall save his soul alive. So I I Inean...yeah, this is a wicked country and if a country cornrnit one thing that's wrong that's wicked, that's the way the law goes. 12 So some things Arnerica was supposed to do. It was supposed to have given rne a chance 'before now but then didn't find the tirne I suppose. (Sun Ra is asked about Space Is the Place) SR: It's in color and it's about rne landing on the planet from outer space. Concerned with the problerns of the planet and I started the problem with black people that some of thern I want to get off the planet. Sorne of thern. _The others, I don't want theni- But I feel that is some that are innocent and who are vibrationally unsuitable for the harsh envi- ronrnents and things- I feel that they should be sornewhere else. So that's What the pic- ture's about- It's about taking thern off the planet. Feeling that other nations are strong- er or got sornething to work with. They got governinents that got all kind of things where they can—they need sornething they can go to one another and get it- But sorne black people, they liave to go to white people to ask for everything. But then white people can do things without asking a black person sometimes. So that isn't right you know. It really isn't fair. But then it's not that white people set that up like this. It was dropped in their lap. VVel1, I wouldn't cornplain against thern. I would cornplain against the one who set it up or sornething of the sort. I don't feel that they set it up. They ViCtiI1‘lS of circuinstances. So then now I had to in my research find out who set up the set up. It ‘ rnost certainly was set up. But then I find that some black people belong to another order of being and you know, just like you take a lion and drop hirn over with the tigers. He's a lion so they Inight seerningly 13 fit but no, they fit better with the lions. But then like I said you got these two kind "of black rnen and in black neighborhoods you got black Inen fighting against black rnen or hating one another. That puzzled rne at one tirne but then.-.Yeah it's because two order of rnen- And the Earth rnan and the high order rnan just" don't belong together. Be- cause one has got his rnind up on a high artistic intellectual level and he wants to be doing sorne things which are really not just for hirnself but may be a benefit to others. Unselfish, then the other rnan is selfish. VVornen too, children too. And then they be trying to get the unselfish person to be selfish because they don't know nothing else. I: Is this unselfishness what you rnean by the spiritual black rnan? SR: I would say that because when a person is happy they really want everybody else to be happy, a part of happiness. Because they don't like that sorrow and rnisery and suffer- i_ng. And naturally they Wouldn't want to be around those vibrations so they would rather for everyone around thexn to be part of their happiness. And that's the Way I ain- I don't like these vibrations of rnisery and sorrow and suffering and all that. I don't like that because it's not in rny nature to like that- So then it's not only rny rnusic because so rnany people on the planet are used to sor- row and suffering and rnisery. Accept it as an everyday occurrence or everyday destiny- But when they hear the sound of happiness, they don't know what to do. Because they don't even know it's happiness. They don't know what it is because they unintelligible to the other sound. They got used to it. 14 It's just like getting a dope habit or some- thing- That's it. Sorne people got the rnisery habit. I rnean they hooked on rnisery and suffering. And they get pleasure out of it. They think that's the latest thing but then that's an old story. Folks been doing that a long tirne. I: Talk a little bit about discipline. You feel like your discipline-—Does that corne out of being an artist and in to dance and stuff? TSR: VVell no... I: It doesn't seern like it would go together. You're in a very space plane right? SR: We have to have discipline because sometime we have a very limited space to perforrn in. Now the dancers with us have to be right there with the band. Dance with trernendous unintelligible of energy without knocking the instrurnents over, without hitt- ing thernselves up against the tables. They have to do this trernendous energy thing because it's really about energy. The planet needs energy now of another sort you see. They got the destructive energy but they need the creative energy. So that's what this is about. To show thern creativity right before their eyes- Infinity, creativity and they get the impression of infinity, creativity and they will begin to be creative in their per- sonal lives instead of destructive. I: The discipline is about doing sornething every day, every hour right? SR: VVell no, that's the Earth discipline. Like rnaybe an arrned force, they rnight be trying 15 to get rnen to do the sarne thing- In order to get thern the discipline to achieve that partic- ular purpose. But then the infinity discipline is different frorn the Earth discipline ‘cause ‘infinity itself rnean constant variety, endless irnrneasurableness. But I rnean you have to have the discipline to channel the energies. Like you take a darn and you darn a river in order to get electric lights. In order for to get -anything you have to have this channeling of energies. So then that's what I rnean by discipline in a sense. But then- Although this rnusic is over in you rnight say a free forrn. I rnean I rnight not restrict it to eight Ineasures or twelve rneasures. Now that's the only thing I can speak of as freedorn. To break beyond the established bounds. That's freedorn in a sense. You have to call it sornething. But that's just breaking beyond established bounds. Now when you do that, that doesn't necessarily rnean that you free. You're over in another kind of disci- pline. It's always discipline. It's never free- dorn. Because a person isn't free to jump out of his any time he wants to so now he has to stay in his skin you know. He have to stay in his skin you know. He can't—I-Ie have to stay enclosed in his body and he got a spirit and everything but he stays over in there. So actually every person is in captivity to their body. They can't be going around running naked without their bodies. But that's a form of discipline. Then one day they have to corne back. They Inight roarn very far away with their spirit but then they have to corne back to their bodies and really, that's discipline. They have to see with the same eyes, walk with the same feet, use the satne hands. And they can't go around using other folks‘ hands and all that. So now 16 they're lirnited in discipline to their own personal bodies you know. Unless they hypnotize sornebody but then that's only ternporary. So then everything is on the ‘discipline plane but freedoIn...See, freedorn for one people Inight rnean slavery for another one. And that has happened quite often in history. One nation got free at the expense of another. So then .it was a one sided freedom. And one nation celebrated victory and the other one went down in defeat.- VVell, any tirne any rnan is in cap- tivity on the planet, one rnan is in captivity, it's not a free planet. So you can't really speak of freedorn on a planet unless every- body is free. But freedorn Ineans indepen- dence too and yet people are more and more interdependent upon one another. Because it's that kind of age, you got a lot of people now on the planet. So in order to survive, they got to be more iterdependent upon one another. It really not no freedorn ‘cause people are getting closer and closer together. Housing is getting closer and closer together. 1\,/Iore of unintelligible these apartments to—- gether. They getting closer together. So then they have to—They getting closer together physically. They going to have to get closer together spiritually and mentally. 17 coNvE RsA1-|oN VVITI'I PETER HINDS OCTOB E R 26, ‘I989 —¢a-—ur— Sun Ra: VVhatever is ruling this planet, supervising it is quite dreadful- And therefore I didn't want to represent it or be part of it or have nobody else be part of it ‘cause it's just dreadfulness of God or whoever is in control or seerningly in control. Very bad and I was trying to tell people about that. But they practically rnade fun of xne and think I'rn ridiculous ‘cause I say that but it is, it is quite...The ancient Egyptians were right where they didn't teach people about ‘ the worship of God. And I can see why. I\/Ioses said the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. l\/Iust be sornething terrible. And he was right. I think he was right for because that fact he wouldn't even let the people go up on the rnountain with hirn or really just be who he was talking to. And they rebelled. They got that in the Bible. They rebelled because they said they had the ‘right to do so. And just by thern wanting to a lot of thern ended up dead ‘cause they opened and swallowed thern. And that's what‘ happened to San Francisco, the ground opened up and swallowing sornething that's about to worship if it's the worshipping of God that's doing it. That's what it is- And they think the worship of God is sornething nice. But indeed it is not. It's wrong. They shouldn't be doing that ‘cause they don't realize that whatever made this planet is so rnajestically unintelligible and terrible that they shouldn't even, they should not app- roach, rnake unintelligible a priest approach or sornething. But the general public should I not be over there worshipping God or want- ing to be a part. It's dangerous. Quite dan- gerous. Like in Philadelphia. They got more churches here than probably any other city per capita you know. It's a bad place. It's 18 very bad- So rnany things that happen here that you wouldn't believe it. I rnean you just wouldn't believe it. Peter Hinds: Stranger than New York City? SR: Of course it is. They have a fire here every week where people get burned up. ‘That's unintelligible where they can't get out of theahouse. Just like sorne kind of tabloid (newspaper) or sornething-tabloid or sorne kind of drarna going on. In fact, about five days ago seven children got burned up (in) one house. PI—I: That ' s terrible . SR: It is. They had the funeral today. Seven. But the rnother wasn't there. The grand- Inother was taking care of thern but it was eight children but one of theni was playing with sorne rnatches in a clothes closet and the clothes caught on fire. And he got saved but .the rest of thern got burned up. The one that started the fire got saved. The rest of thern got all...You know they had to teach hirn really to be playing with no rnatches. He was in a clothes closet hiding so he rnust have known he wasn't supposed to be- So you see what can happen if sornething gets over in children and has thern to do things which ends in disaster. So all of that is rnost shocking to rne- And yet it's a nice city- They building it up but-..the people here got funny attitudes in a lot of cases. I'rn scared really to be friendly with thern and invite thern in the house ‘cause they rnight see what they want to steal or sornething like that. ' Therefore it's a cold city. Don't have any friends here. Unintelligible to have any. 19 They all very friendly, they speak to rne on the street but I'm scared to invite thern in the house. That's not a good place to be where you scared to Inake friends. That's the way Philadelphia is. It's strange. Sun Ra: I've got so rnany cornpositions that I've rehearsed it but this music, the rnusic I have never played out for the public is quite difficult. I want it to be together you see. I don't want to just jump out there and just put it out there ‘cause it's new. It has to be together. Unintelligible what the rnusic hasn't been heard by the public which is rehearsals so I want to play. But then it's very tech-— nical. It's more technical than classical music and I have played on some jobs but that's not for the general public to hear. And it's wonderful but the studio...it's...we11...it's rnore exacting you rnight say. I never play my things, whenever we record in the studio I don't ever reach back in the archives and get the rnusic to where it should hear (be heard). I'rn afraid. Because I don't know what this is. This Inusic is talking about another plane of existance. It's talking about other dirnensions and I don't know whether every- one should be exposed to this. It's very serious. It's not like like religion. It's not like anything the world ever heard. If I played the real thing, which I haven't done, I've just played the irnages and the shadows. I've not played—For thirty years or rnore we've been rehearsing things that the public never have heard. I'rn afraid to let them hear it. Because you got a lot of spirits on this planet and you got a lot of...VVel1, it just like giving everybody a gun. You see what's 20 happening out there. It's some spirits unin-—' telligible that use everything for some thing negative, sornething that's not good they use it. And if everybody was equal, yes but just because sornebody got two legs don't rnean it's a rnan. VVell, it's a problem" for rne. Unintelligible I've had rny stuff stolen by people I've spent years teaching or trying to. And that's just a closed circuit. And that's frightening to rne about corning out to the wider circle. If sornebody like Eloe (C)rnoe) could actually stay in the house and steal or pawn rny stuff and all that tirne...I'rn afraid. PH: Eloe pawned some of your things? SR: (Jarnes) Jackson too. He pawned some of ...VVe just finding that out. PI-I: VVhat things? VVhat iterns did he pawn? SR: Ix/Iicrophones, two synthesizers, circular saw...VVe have to take the pawn ticket down there and ask the people working... PI-I: Is Jackson still there (5626 l\/Iorton St.)? . SR: Yes, he's upstairs. So it's very strenuous for us to be, you know, think of what was he doing? He was doing sornething. Srnoking crack and cocaine no doubt. Eloe (has) a lot of negative friends so unintelligible so I didn't see hirn do it but they didn't say it until after he died so... PI-I: Sorneone was saying Eloe was srnoking crack? Is that right? SR: That's right. 21 PH: VVho was saying that? SR: Teenagers. One” of thern told sornebody that Eloe used to get so high. I-Ie was rern— iniscing. I-Ie ain't no teenager but he's out there with thern. VVhy would he be out there .with hirn unless it is true. They say it's true. IPI-I: They said he was smoking crack there. SR: They said he'd get so high. And then a ,rnan down at the corner say Eloe hit hirn in »the head with an iron pipe because he's high. And you know all that, it's a different Eloe froxn what I knew you see. But it Inust be true ‘cause we got the pawn tickets. So he's like the Doctor Jeckyll and l\/Ir. I-Iyde. PI-I: Did you ever notice any strange be- havior_ during that tirne? SR: VVel1 he was always strange to rne because I realized he didn't have no disci- pline and I told hirn that. ‘Cause I'm talking about discipline. That rnakes rne have to cut my band down more and rnore because Americans don't have no discipline. They've been talking about freedorn all the tirne and everything. They got the fruits of freedorn and not the fruits of discipline. And it's very difficult country. I see just like now, the prisoners, they in jail now and they be talk- ing about freedoin so that's the reason they in there rioting and fourty folks been hurt and they set the prison on fire. They over in ‘ there with the fire and that's freedorn. 22 PI-I: You got to eat even if...You got to have that good food, that nutrition you know. SR: VVe1l, that's true you know. But the food can't do anything about rny.psychic—The psy- chic darnage I've suffered at the way I've been treated. V PI-I: But you've .got to keep your energy going you know. SR: I do keep it going but it's just like this traurna and drania about VVysteria's (Judith I-Iolton) unintelligible draining my energy worrying about it. (Her passport was lost sornewhere in the house on l\/Iorton Street) 23 CONVERSATION \A7I'I'I-I PETER I-III~lI>S JAB! UARY 3, 1990 _SR: I don't know where I'In standing. -sorne opposition toward Ine ever since I Peter I-Iinds: I-Iello Sun Ra- Sun Ra: VVell, I'In trying. PI-I: How are you doing? There's so many strange things happening until I have turned off in a sense. Just sitt- ing back looking—what's next? PH: VVhat are the strange things‘? VVhat's been going on? SR: VVell, you know there's always been was a child even though I—before I was even playing. I unintelligible with some forces that was always—I didn't'ca11 thern forces. Sornething, that corne from my hand, be blocking- things when I want to do sorne— thing. I felt that and the fellas be saying it's your imagination. But I retain rny childlike qualities and I'In glad I did because there are-It's true, there are some things that even like, my instrurnents have disappeared. It was all studied out and planned to take thern. And no doubt it was not hurnan agents because sornething happened to 1\/Iike—l\/like (Ray) had a synthesizer, an l\/I1 (Korg 1\/I1 VVorkstation)“ and he played with us the last three days be-'- fore and the last night we played in lVIassa— chusetts he didn't play- I don't know what happened. He say he was going to see his sons. But we left ‘cause he ain't call up of nothing so we left hiﬂl. He had to reroute hirnself. Instead of leaving from l\Tevv¥»York‘,»';=’ he leave from Philadelphia. So he left‘”ﬁ"rorn here going to New Orleans and they route‘ " ‘ hixn through Pittsburg- He had the instru- 24 lI]lgI£.3[ '_v‘_v_- I”! I. _.'.:'..__"|_|_I_ I mm'.'_ _ rnent, the 1\/I1. And so when he got to New Orleans he spilled sorne gasoline, like around the instrument, so he opened up the case and his instrurnent wasn't in there. Sorne rocks was in there instead. The sarne weight as his instrument. He had about $3,000 worth of in there 'cause the instrument itself cost $1,500 and he had these other things in there- Anyway, just disappeared. And so then I was telling you about thern forces. In the past they always was spiriting rny instrurnents away. This tirne they carne on over and took his. So then he was on his way to the hospital. I mean he was on the way to the airport and he ended up in the hospital because the glass next to hirn in the autornobile he was riding in to take the in- strurnent back shattered and some of it got in his eyes and he had to go to the hospital and his eye was bruised but none of the glass stayed in there. But I'rn telling you that was some other kind of force. I told hirn, I say you... know you down'in New Orleans. You better go to some voodoo doll or sornebody and find out what's happening. ‘Cause that is strange. It was calculated to put thern rocks in there because..-And it was just like it was calculated when they took my instrurnents but I never recovered rnine. I-Ie rnight be able to because he finally took it back to the airport and they said that they'd been having trouble out of bags in Philadelphia and Pittsburg. PI-I: You been rehearsing? SR: VVe1l, yeah. You know I rehearse all the time. I'rn busy changing the unintelligible and things in music unintelligible. I have to keep rehearsing. I've dedicated my whole so called life to rnusic. VVhen I don't rehearse I feel 25 : there's sornething happening on this planet ' but the light was so bright on the vehicle, very depressed. Nothing rnatters- So I have to rehearse more to keep from having that feeling. ‘Cause when I look at the daily news and everything I get depressed because in Philadelphia five hundred‘ people were killed last year, rnurdered. Five hundred. That's more than one a day. So I just stay in the house. I don't go out too rnuch. VVhen I go out, have sornebody with rne now. Get a cab or something. SR: I'm playing everything by ear now ‘cause that's incredible. PH: VVhat do you rnean? SR: VVell,‘ ‘these space—In fact a friend came around today and was telling rne his exper- ience he had right here in Philadelphia. That an.unidentified object landed right in front of hirn, across the street from hirn. Byard Lan- caster and hirnself saw it. It's a bright light so he said he told Byard I'rn going over here (and) see what happens. Byard said, are you crazy? You shouldn't go over there. He said I'rn going over with a friendly attitude and I'm going to be thinking to thern that I'rn corning (in) friendliness. So he told Byard, said if I don't come back, well, just take the car. I got to go in and see if I can cornrnuni— cate. So he Went over there. And he tried to even though he shaded his eyes he ‘still couldn't see what was happening. And then it took off. VVent back up in the sky. And then they go up and at one point all at once it rnade a whining noise and it went, and in 26 one split second it was gone. PI-I: That was yesterday? SR: No it happened sorne time ago. He just carne by to tell Inc about it.- PI-I: So it was Byard Lancaster and a friend of his? SR: A friend narned Keno- I don't know if you rnet him. He plays congo drurns. PH: Keno? I haven't Inet hirn, no. So how's he doing, how's Byard? Has he played with you lately or done anything with you? SR: No he hasn't. Byard has been to Holland and he's supposed to be teaching. He always does sornething unintelligible. I'rn not over in that 'cause politicians having too hard a tirne with them bornb letters and all that. I don't want no parts of that. I have to talk to him. Tell hirn leaders are endangered species. They should get themselves together for protec- tion. I've been singing that you know. Gov- ernrnent of the leaders for the people by the leaders so it wasn't listening to rne. Too bad. ‘Cause they on the run now. I told thern. I was telling the truth but nobody listening to rne. They thought I was a big durnrny but I know, it's just like I said: endangered species. District attorney had to shoot and kill a man today in Canada. I rnean either today or yesterday 'cause. they were trying to - kill him. Sorne of the dope folks. He had his shotgun. I-Ie blasted away....It's like the Inovies now you know....So I just want to play my rnusic and sort of be a herniit in a sense... Like I told a fellow, I said no, I'm 27 afraid of people. I don't know where they headed. Things are not as all the way they supposed to be. I told Jackson: I said you know, these people in Arnerica never have given rne proper credit and never have paid me properly like they supposed to. But I see thern putting folks like (VVynton) 1\/Iarsalis up there. They give hiﬂl $20,000 a night and all this tirne rne and John been rehearsing. It's very discouraging. Jack Rich (Sun Ra's book- ing agent at the tirne) said there is no justice in Arnerica- You know that. PI-I: Yeah, I know what you rnean. 1\/Iy bro- ther and I were talking about that. The l\/[ar- salis Brothers getting a lot of publicity, a lot _ of rnoney and a lot of great rnusicians who've been working for Inany, Inany years and still just scraping by- SR: But they're not playing Jazz. Unintelli—— gible played nothing yet. PI-I: Didn't he ask if he could sit in with you once? SR: One tirne (early 80's) in New York he carne- He wanted to sit in but I wouldn't let hirn ‘cause I said well, you know he's very young and he ain't got—I-Ie ain't paid no dues. You can't really play Jazz unless you pay some dues. Because you ain't got no ernotion. But if you're on the road and everything, you have ernotions and hunger. A lot of ernotions un-— intelligible. VVe1l, he always been snug bug under a rug with his father- So he's...no experience. But he did tell rne he really wanted to play with the band. Last tirne I saw hirn and talked to hirn. But he rnaking all that rnoney. He won't play with 28 1116-. PH: He just rnade a big Christrnas alburn which I saw in the stores. I-Ie's got the Santa Claus hat on and everything. I think the re- cord cornpany was up to that. Twisting his arrn. SR: VVe finally reached Philadelphia. ‘Cause they were shocked we played a concert ded-— cated to trees and flowers. PI-I: I read about that. You did one in New York too. SR: But of course they advertised trees and plants. See, people always Inessing with me in Arnerica. And they did in New York too- They advertised trees and plants. Now, I told them distinctly trees and flowers. In. fact, I told a wornan in the superInarket.-.She said- You know they had my big picture in the paper in Philadelphia and all that. PI-I: VVhen? SR: The day we played, Friday. PI-I: Friday? An article or just a photograph? SR: Just a photograph. And she said they don't advertise Ine like they do other groups. They wait till the last Ininute. Put my picture in the paper and all this. I'rn playing there tonight. She asked Ine, she said and every tirne unintelligible you play in Philadelphia I don't have a chance to hear you because they don't advertise like the other groups to let people know in advance where you playing. They don't do it. She said are they giving 29 you the cold shoulder? ‘SR: I said I think so. She said it was de- liberate. I know several tirnes We played at Chestnut Cabaret and you'd call up and they would be announcing sornebody else. Or else‘ they'd be saying we playing the next night. And they've done it two or three times. So it's deliberate. I don't know. I don't need that. That's the reason I keep on telling Jack Rich I ought to cancel everything in Arnerica and go and play in Europe. I don't need—I don't understand why I've had all this oppo- sition against rne. Everytirne I play I give thern a real show of beauty and precision and sincerity. And they don't have a right to do that. So I don't—I shouldn't have to go through that traun1a- I'In ready to play in Europe. You know, stay there a while or sornething. PI-I: You know, the band sounded just fantastic—VVell, the last tirne I heard you guys was on the TV show (David Sanborn's Night 1\/Iusic) a few weeks ago and the band really sounded great you know. Really very tight and...it really sounded wonderful you know. Tyrone (Hill) and John (Giltnore), 1\/Iarshall (Allen)... SR: Yeah, that's what I said. Swingin'. I got John Ore back on the bass. SR: VVe rnade another record for A&1\/I and we had Don Cherry with us. PI-I: you mentioned that. Jarnes Spaul— ding_.._ that-n:1_ust4have been exciting. VS/hen 30. was the last tirne you saw Jaines Spaulding pior to the recording session? SR: I hadn't seen hirn really. PI-I: For a while. SR: The record cornpany found hirn ‘cause didn't know where he was. PI-I: All right. ‘Cause he did a real nice inter- view for Cadence 1\/Iagazine about two years ago where he went on at great length about you. I-Iigh praise... SR: That's quite interesting. I went and got hirn back and put hirn on this record. PI-I: Yeah, I‘rn looking forward to hearing that you know. ‘Cause he was...I-Ie couldn't say enough great things about you in that article. And it went on for a few pages about you. About how he met you and his exper- iences. It was quite sornething you know. It was really... it was really nice to see some- one putting that out. SR: It was very inspiring sorne things they said about me. But things are very critical now because everything I've been talking about is going to happen is happening. That puts me in a strange position. VVhere did I get it from to know all these things‘? Really, it's worrying rne. I‘rn definitely in touch with outer space folks. That's not a joke you see. PI-I: So what's next for you now...rnusical1y? SR: VVel1...You know I'rn in the rniddle about 31 \ sum- I ‘ IN TIME ANDSPACE DOCUMENTARY BY PETER I-Ilhl D5 AND JCJI-Ihl I-lIl~lI>S .1.‘ ..\.Y) : ...1.I.«..\Lrl\l.¥ Lza«i.I.:.Izl.1;: ‘ace \ ., , vc.u....v .m.mw.w.\.. coining to California or going to Europe. It's a big problern- ‘Cause Jack (Rich) wants rne to split—I rnean 1\/Iarshall (Allen) want to stay ‘independent and Jack wants to have a little bit rnore control over us. So you see...And Brad (booking agent) feels that he should un- intelligible. So I never had to go into that before. But I'll have to now- 32 1 R‘ E E :3. : 3 '2 .r E! 3 CONVERSATION cusmr BEAR LOUNGE CHICAGO, u.. SEPTEMBER 29, 1990 Question: VVhat I wanted to ask you about first of all, because I live in Hyde Park, I wanted to ask you aboutwhere you were playing in this area with Fletcher Henderson at the Club DeLisa. ‘Cause that's near Hyde Park, isn't it‘? Like 43rd Street where you used to be. Sun Ra: No, the Club DeLisa...I played with. Colernan Hawkins (and) Stuff Srnith too. But I don't know where. Sornewhere on the North side- ‘Cause they rnade a lot of pictures of it. I haven't seen thexn though. But I was there. Q: I wanted to ask you about what you were doing then...because it seern like the music I heard you do first was... SR: VVell you see, what I was doing...Arner— ica was so busy thinking about rnoney and God, they couldn't see rne. You see, when people got their Inind on sornething, that they don't know whether it's true or not, they got sornebody alive where they can see, they rnake a great rnistake not to see that they have sornething worthwhile in hurnan forrn right with thern. And they be looking at sornething 2,000 years ago or sornething 10,000 years ago and can't recognize sorne- thing right with thern that's in hurnan forrn, they're rnaking a big rnistake. Because according to their religion, God is a spirit anyway. If he a spirit he can be in anybody- So there's no telling when you run up on hirn if that is true. He got to have sotnewhere to stay. So the best place he can go is in the hurnan body. "And they have to be very care- ful then because you don't know where he is. He's not out in the heavens. Right on this planet sornewhere. And probably there's a 33 ‘lot of people getting attacked ‘cause’ there's a lot of folks that don't know where God is. But they know that he possibly is on this planet in hurnan forrn. So then they attack people to get rid of hirn. Unintelligible find out where God is. I mean of course it's like science fiction...but that's the way God sees, through people's eyes. And he hears through people's ears. He rnight be anywhere. But I'm going by what you call life, my experiences. _And right in New York City a teenager carne to rne one day and say, "I-Ii Sun Ra, I'In God." I'd never seen hirn before and I was on this bus with a lot of black people and I said, "Good evening God. So nice of you to visit rne." I didn't say he wasn't God ‘cause I didn't know. And I say, "You visiting rne right in front .of all these people." He said, "I don't care- That's what I like about you. You don't care how I corne to you. You welcorne rne." Now that's what he said to rne. And then a black rnan sitting on the bus say, "You all sitting here talking about God and I'rn sitting up here starving. I've been all over Harlern asking for fifty cents to get rne a fish sandwich and nobody help rne. And you all on this bus talking about God." I said, "God, they say you rnade rnan, now‘ the rnan is hungry. VVhat you going to do about it.? I-Ie said, "Let hirn starve." I told the man, I said, "VVell, you see? Now, I didn't rnake you so I ain't responsible for you. I'd like to feed you but I don't want to Inake God rnad. I can't give you nothing in his narne, I ain't giving you nothing in rny narne so I'd like to help you. The only thing I can help you with, I can help you in some- body elses narne- Then it won't go on rne. I will help you in the narne of Lucifer 'cause\_ a-in't nobody never said nothing good about 34 hirn. So I'll give you sorne Inoney to eat in the nanle of Lucifer- So Lucifer have one sornething on his record that's nice. Unin- telligible never said ~nothing good about hirn. And then God said, "You wouldn't dare. That rnan wouldn't take it no way. You wouldn't do that. He wouldn't take it." I said, "You think not?" I said, I told the rnan, "Now, God won't help you. So I'm going to give you this rnoney in the narne of Lucifer, and so you can go and eat." And so I gave the Inan sotne rnoney and then God said, "You should be ashatned of yourself Sun Ra- .You've just bought this rnan's soul for a fish sandwich- Then the rnan said, " I don't know who he is, Where he corne frorn or what he is. I know one thing: I was hungry and he fed rne." God said, "See that. Look what you've done." Now, that happened to rne. So God Inight corne out and unintelligible talk to people at anytinie. You have to be careful. You never know. He corne up and asks, "VVhat's the good word?" All the planet asks, "VVhat's the good word?" Don't .nobody ever say what the good word is. ‘Cause they think it's the person talking. But they have to realize that God can take over any tirne he wants and talk to you face to face. And un-— less you really pure in heart, he'll catch you napping. I-Ie'1l catch you napping. And you'll say what you want, and one day he'll show up and ask you what you want, in person. And then that's the tirne for you to say, "I want so and so", ‘cause you're in person, you don't have to pray. And then you can get it if you're alert that it's God talking. You have to be alert though ‘cause it's very tricky. In Egypt I said, "You know what?“sv I'd like for a rich young Arab to corne up, Egyptian, and fall in love=with rny-<n1usic 3'5 . ---q—» ........q ....__ ___.,._. ...... ...._.~._. and go everywhere with us. I would never have to worry about no rnoney. He'll be with us everywhere we go. That's what I said- So in Cairo I was sitting outside (at) a sidewalk cafe and sure enough a young Egyptian carne in and say, "Sun Ra, I love your rnusic. I deeply love your rnusic. I would do anything for you. VVhat do you want?" And I was in where you got gold and silver upholstry (for) about three rniles. I thought he was a Iner- chants son and I said, "VVell, I haven't deci- ded what I wanted yet. I haven't decided-" So he reached in his pocket and got a roll this big and said, "VVell, take this then." And that was exactly what I said I wanted. I said, "No, that's alright." That's when I wake up hating Inyself every rnorning. If I had taken that rnoney he'd be sitting right here. Be- cause what I said I wanted, it was right there. Unintelligible caught rne napping. You know, it's like in Chicago, right here- VVe was playing in Birdland and the erncee told us-said, "John Gilrnore, stop the show! Step forward. VVhat you want out of life, John Giln1ore?" Stop the show on a Saturday night in Chicago! "VVhat you want? Speak." And John said, "I'd like to travel." And I tell John that, "John, you did not ask for any Inoney. And you're travelling ever since. Next tirne ask for some rnoney." But you see, that's why I said unintelligible, "Now, I'rn going to ask for sornething and that's when I'll express my wish." And then he carne and was right there. But it'll happen again. I'rn not worried. Only one thing to worry about. That on this planet all you nations going to listen to what I got to say. And I have to watch rnyself ‘cause God rnight give Inc the planet. ‘Cause he wouldn't rniss it you know. And then I'd have all these 36 folks on rny hands. But the only thing about hixn, if he give you a planet, he'll give you the dead ones too- You'll have the living and the dead and you have all the unintelligible he'll give you the whole thing. He ain't going to rniss it. So another person will be in charge of everybody- Everybody. All nations will be up under one soinebody and when the space people call and say, "Take rne to your leader," they'll have a leader say, "Alright, our leader is so and so." Now, it's got to corne—You got to have one rnan in charge of this planet- One that if the devil cornes, he'll say he have a leader. You got to have you a rnean, hateful, evil shepherd- Because ’of the Bible you got to- You got to have you a evil father. A good one can't do it ‘cause the Bible don't say that. That's the only book you got. It says, "An evil father know how to good things for his children.'' So then you don't look for nobody good to help you ‘cause the book said that evil father know how to do good things for his children. So you got to find you a evil father. The good ones can't Inake it. A good shepherd can't make it ‘cause a good shepherd, you see, have to be good all the tirne, let the wolf conie unintelligible the laxnb. A good shep- herd has to say, "VVell, he has a right to sorne larnb chop, unintelligible laxnb. But the evil shepherd say, "You do not get any larnb chops. You not getting one of my sheep-" And the wolf would be in trouble. And all the wolves would say, "That's a evil person- He won't even let us have one larnb chop and he got all these la:rnbs." Now, that's what you call a evil shepherd. Because he's-V he's good to his sheep. But he ain't good for the wolves. Now, this planet got to have an evil shepherd and if somebody ‘corne up 37 (and) bother one of the sheep they'll get a Inessage they won't remember ‘cause they won't be. He'll get rid of thern. That's what you have to have- A pure, evil shepherd. Take this planet: ain't nobody going to bother it, the dexnons ain't corning that way- They angels ain't corning that way. gYou know, fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and where do they fear to go? Around an evil shepherd. They not corning in there. No angels corning around an evil shepherd. They rnight not get out. So then they got to face rnore than philosophy. Phil—. osophy ain't ‘going to help nobody. That's conjecture. You got to know things. You can't be talking about believing in God no rnore. You got to know. And really, you got to have diplornatic relationships. You got to have diplornatic relationship with God ‘and you got to have diploniatic relationship with Satan and you got to have diplornatic relationship with death itself. And then you're prepared for Satan. If you ain't got no dip- ‘lornatic relationship, you're in trouble. It's all got to be political now. Even with God. So if you've got a treaty with hirn, he won't bother you. And death won't bother you- But if you don't have no treaty with God, you can have all the police you want. You're in danger. The people in ancient days, they talked: "Don't be over there in thern churches" because they call that sacred. Sacred rneans taboo. Oh yeah, everybody's over in the taboo places. That's a church. Anything sacred is taboo. That's what. taboo means. It rneans don't go—do not trespass. Now, this planet got to learn about God. Stay away as far as you can- Don't be trying to get near hirn. ‘Cause a friend of rnine in A VVashington DC saw God. He called rne up... 38“ He said he saw God sitting on his throne, golden robes, roorn all golden. And he was standing in the back of the roorn buck ,naked, and he approached God. God ‘said, "Stand back! Don't corne near Ine- Stand back." And he called rne the other day and said, "VVhat's the rneaning of that dreani?" I said, "Prepare to die. It is written: A Inan cannot see God and live. So the fact that God told you to stand back, you got a little while.'' Steve Glabrnanz Have you seen God, Sun Ra? SR: No, I don't want to see hirn. VVell I mean of course, of course if you're pure in heart you can see hirn. I'In pure in heart so it don't rnake no difference. I've probably seen hirn rnany tirnes. I'rn pure in heart. That rneans I'rn sincere. So folks out there unintelligible all that and they're not sincere but they see God they certain- ‘Cause it is written: The pure in heart shall see God- If I go by the book, it's alright if you're pure in heart- If you're not, stay away- Don't even corne near- Don't even write his naine. You take in New York City, the Jews don't write God, they write G dash D (G—d) in their newspaper. G dash D. They don't even dare write the narne God. You know, you have to—You got to learn some- thing. Unidentified voice: VVhat do that rnean? SR: It rneans that they putting it down that way- You know it syrnbolizes God but they ain't going to write the word down there- It's too dangerous- They don't even want it written down, not in that book- ‘Cause they know that word is dangerous. Now, there is 39 sornething to equations- You take in New York City, unintelligible loaned rne sorne rnoney and I went up to the office to ask for it. I told the fellows in the band, "Now, don't say anything. Just let rne talk. I'rn going to get your rnoney-" So I went up there and I told thezrn about the unintelli- gible they been Inaking and how they been taking rnusicians down the drain and stealing frorn thern and they said, of course they said, "VVe don't have any rnoney." They sitting in that big office. And I said, "You know, God, white folks are saying you dead. I don't care if you are dead. I need your help." And the rnan instantly said, "VVait, we don't have tirne to be giving these fellows no money. Unintelligible say you get all the lrnoney and you pay thern. So you go down- stairs and cash the check." But I said, "God, ‘if you are dead, I need your help. Corne and help rne." They irnrnediately wrote out the ‘check and then I went downstairs and got our Inoney. Now why did they get scared? VVhich rneans, it don't rnake no difference if God is dead. You still can call hixn up, if you need hirn. If you need hirn, he'll corne right out (of) the land of death and help you. And soxnebody be in serious trouble. That's what 1\/Ioses did. He called up god and the first- born Egyptians died. I Inean the birds... Everything firstborn died. He was a terrible man‘. A rnurderer and a liar and I got my proof on hirn. I got my proof on that Ivloses- No good for nothing. He was awful. Even his little sister said he was no good. And he turned her—I-Ie gave her leprosy. Just barn! He had power. And there people had to beg, plead, turn her back to her white color. And then he did. He had the power. Every now and then the power of God falls 40 on a person. Barn! That's the reason America better be careful with that Sadarn (Hussain). You never know. Over there—Over there in ‘Kuwait, they better be careful ‘cause you never know where God is. You never know. And when he's over there in a rnan, the best thing: Do not touch. It's the sarne way, like a Ininister was in New York City...Unintelli— gible in New York City. They asked what to do about Iran. They asked what to do about the Inan the Ayatolah, what to do about hiin. They asked a white rninister, what Inust we do about hirn? And the rninister said, "If God is with hirn, don't touch hirn. But if he's not, kill hirn." He said, "But if God is with hirn, don't touch hirn. It's nothing you can do." And that is true. You have to be careful. And so in the Bible where—where God told people, "Look, don't say nothing about this rnan...up there representing. Don't say no- thing good, don't say nothing bad. Don't say nothing about hirn." So then...if they read that Bible they get scared. They get scared of God. He don't play around. There's a place in there (the Bible) where it says people took sorne rnoney from the church, they told sorne lies, they supposed to get 10% of their earnings and they rnade sorne Inoney and they lied about it. So that the person in charge of the church said, "I-Iow rnuch did you rnake on this estate that you sold?" And the Inan said less than he got and then he say, "VVell, your not telling us the truth. You've lied to God. Your dead body will fall.'' And he dropped dead then—Barn! His wife caxne in and she said the sarne thing. They said, "Your hus- band just told a lie and he's dead and you will die too." She dropped dead, they took her out. That's God. So you don't fool around over there in thern churches and 41 things that tell lies ‘cause you'll be dead- And God doesn't care nothing about death. Because he can raise up anybody he wants whether they believe it or not. I know he can do it. ‘Cause this fellow playing with me, played congo drurns, he died three tirnes. He still playing his congo druins... in Philadelphia. He died three tirnes. And I had told hirn, "Don't worry, God is—he's in charge. of the territory of death and he's in charge of this. It doesn't rnake no difference. He can take care of you anywhere." I told hirn that. And a rnonth later he died. They got it on record in Philadelphia that he died. No heartbeat, no pulse, no nothing. And what they did: They beat on his body ‘cause he was dead. So they treated it like it was a piece of rneat and his heart started beating- So two days later so he died again. This tirne they stuck needles in his heart and it began to beat. Two days later he died again. This tirne they cut his heart out of his body and rnassaged‘ it. He's still playing congo drurns. And I asked hirn, "In these states of death what did you see?" He said well, in one state he was in a place that was so cold, he saw a door. So he knocked on this door, wouldn't nobody let hirn in. The other tirne he said he was going through a tunnel, he saw a light. He saw this light. He found hixnself over in the realrn of death and two beings rnet hirn. I said, "VVho?" He said, "God and Satan." (Sun Ra) "Did they seern angry with one another?" He said, "No, best of friends." I said, "VVel1, I thought—I thought that." He said they was best of friends. He said, "They both asked rne the sarne thing." I said, "VVhat did they ask you?" They asked rne what's the rnost sacred thing in the Universe? "And he said, "First I said the water." Then 42 he finally said, "I don't. know." And hevcarne back. He's still playing his congo drurns.: I said, "VVhy don't you Inake a cassette or sornething and tell the world what happened to you in the states of death?" "He said, well, he trying to stay out (of) the way because they want hirn to corne back to the hospital for an examination. I-Ie's afraid they want to kill hirn and see if he would corne back. VVel1, he said, "Not going back." But he rnight be right. They rnight want to kill hirn and see because that's phenornenal, three tirnes dead. And still playing, playing his congo drurns. Unidentified rnusician: Planet Earth nurnber three? Unintelligible planet Earth? SR: Oh, planet Earth is heaven nuzrnber three. So people talk about they going to heaven when threy die. Of course, they bury thern in it. And this is heaven nurnber three. And heaven nurnber three is written in the Bible about the heaven nurnber three. Right in the book. And L/Iars is the fourth heaven. I've got a song about it. But I stopped singing it. A lot of things I stopped singing. I sing it in New York. I don't sing it outside of New York- 'Cause New York—New York has been listening to nie a long tirne and so they can put it together, different songs. But some- tirnes people not ready. That causes pro- blerns. Like I was saying in B1oornington— must have been Illinois. 1\/Iight have been-— one of thern. You got two Bloorningtons. And Indiana I believe. I was singing this song and I said, "You're looking pretty good tonight." That is what I told the audience. "I-Iow long you been dead?‘-' You looking good tonight, how long you been dead?" Now, in New York they used to rne saying 43 .'-9...... .-—..._. ....... ~........ —:.._..:. ....... ..._.~,....\. , things but this case it was one, rnaybe two black people in there. The white people said, "Too long. VVhat should we do about it? Are you going to help us?" The black one jumped up and said, "Bullshit!" and he started toward the stage- The white ones jurnped up, put him up above his shoulders, threw hixn outside (and said), "Don't corne back in here. Don't bother Sun Ra." And he was out there talking about, "But I don't understand." They said, "Don't corne back in here." Then the white rnan said, "As long as I unintelligible, I ain't using my gun yet. If you corne back in here I'In going to blow you away." That happened in Bloornington, Indi- ana. See, so you see it can—go in another di- rection. Now, I told the band—VVe1l, actually he was crying. All at once he realized he is dead and he was crying- Bullshit! He didn't want to recognize it. But the white race know they dead ‘cause they've got the Grateful Dead. They got some so they grateful they got-They glad God gave thern sornething even if they dead. They call thernselves Grateful Dead. VVell, of course it's unintelligible. Black folks been dead a long tinie and they don't know it yet because they say the dead don't know anything. But now Jesus killed thern- He killed all of thern. He had the pow— er. He killed, he killed thern with a sirnple sentence that say, "Forgive thern father, they know not what they do." And since the book said the dead know not anything, he killed all of the dead bodies. So you got to watch spiritual beings. He killed thexn by saying, "They know not what they do." And since the Bible say the dead know not anything, he used a backward equation on thern. Killed everybody in the hearing unintelligible. And they been dead ever. Unintelligible negro 44 which means dead body- And they in trouble- VVhite folks are in trouble. They in trouble like-—And then God Went and took part of the brain out. He put part of it asleep. So they wouldn't see it. And white think they still- unintelligible part of their brain is put to sleep by God. Because Why? They taught that God Went to sleep on the seventh day. And God don't like that, telling. he rested on the seventh day. So then God never sleeps- So he just put thern in his naxne, let thern go to sleep instead. He put thern in his narne and let the God part go to sleep for seven days- Since they teaching that, they have to be careful what they saying about God. Sometimes somebody can say some- thing about God that he appreciates. Appre- ciates, say, "Oh, they're waking up." Like a white rninister, say he pray to God, "I'rn tired of teaching about Jesus died to save you. I'rn tired of that. I don't want to be preaching it." God says, "Oh, you're waking up, huh?" He said that God said, "You Wak- ing up, huh? VVell, don't teach thern that no more. Just tell thern I love thern and don't tell thern nothing else." And this white rnin— ister, he don't tell people nothing but God loves you 'cause God told hirn don't tell- don't teach nothing about no salvation, no- thing. Just tell thern I love thern. And then, that's where it's at. But if you ask questions, ask and you shall be given. You have to have an irnagination. In Philadelphia I saw a min- ister. I said, "VVell, how's your boss doing?" Nobody ever asks God, "How are you feeling today?" They ask unintelligible, "I-Iovv are you feeling today?" They never unintelligible, "I-IoW you feeling today?" They never ask hirn how he's feeling. VVell, they got to have irnagination. But I asked,"I-Iow's your boss 45 ‘J-I—xs'n.I—I_w-5 -,—,«,-y.-;-. 4-» today?" He said, "VVell, he's alright." I said, "VVell, these people down here in trouble getting sick and dead and dying. VVhat does he say about?" (1\/Iinister replies), "Oh, he knows about it." And I said, "They said that .Satan is doing it. Isn't he going to inter- fere?" And then the rninister said, ''Oh, Satan never does anything without first asking God's perrnission." He never does anything without first ask perrnission- They should ask unintelligible about this situation. VVhat is he going to do about AIDS? I-Ie'll tell you- I-Ie'll speak right from God...If you ask hirn. But he won't tell you nothing if you ask hirn- Right here in Chicago I was talking some things to people so then they, _they went and go snitch on line to a Ininister, a bishop- They told the bishop what I said. I said, "You know, these rninisters ought to tell people who Jesus is. ‘Cause they over there. Tell thern who he is." And they said, "VVho he is?" I said Lucifer. They said, "VVe going to tell the bishop what you said about Jesus..." So the bishop showed up the next day. They told the bishop——they said, "Now tell, tell what you said to us in front of the bishop. I told the bishop, I said, "VVell, I say you ought to tell people that Jesus is Lucifer ‘cause he is." And the bishop took his hat off and said, "I hereby crown you." Unintel— ligible. Right in front of people. Then in Chicago I went through my tests here. Black folks telling me about, well you know, athe- ist, cornInunist—he don't believe in God. VVhen he cornes out in this park he going to tear you up and you talking about God. He don't believe in nothing like that. He's very intelligent. So a year went by, he finally showed up. They said, "Now, talk about God and all that what you talking about. This 46 \ person don't believe in God. He's got some- thing for you." I said, "I was talking about power. I never said the word God. I'In talk- ing about Satan." And then the Inan who didn't believe in God said, "Satan! A bad rnotherfucker!" and ran—boorn!—out the park. Here in Chicago he ran out that park. He got out the way. So you see, he didn't believe in God but he was afraid even to discuss the word Satan. Right here in Chicago, another thing happened. Sornebody I was teaching was out in the park and a rnan carne up—looked like a black rnan—asked 1’1Ll1‘I1, "VVhat would you say if I told you I could speak and rnake this park a bed of roses? Instantly!" And he said, "VVell, my teacher is teaching rne not to know everything. I don't know nothing. I'm learning. I never Inet you- I don't know what you can do. You rnight can do it, and rnaybe you can't. 1\/Iy teacher does not tell rne to be judging nobody, but..so I ain't going to say nothing." And the rnan said, "VVe1l, you have a good teacher. Keep on' learning under hirn. I'rn glad I rnet you. 1\/Iy narne is Lucifer." And walked. . .And then he ran to try to catch——I don't know what he was going to do because he disappeared there. Right here in Chicago he disappeared and he was black. Now, I'rn going through experiences. I have to go by Iny experiences. Strange experi- ences about God. I've had experience about God said, told rne one day, "There's always going to be just you and rne and never nobody else." Just like unintelligible. "It's just going to be rne and you and never no- body else-" I didn't know it. So what is that? Is 'God all alone‘? VVell, I mean he came to 'be alone. Ain't got no farnily. VVell, I would think he rnade hirn sorne, he Inade hirn sorne farnily. But they lost track. Like in New -um-—-“nu. .... ._. .. .._,..... ._.._,._..,....... ._...............-.4-.-.-.-. .-. .-..'. —...... ..._~.—.._......n... ...,. - _ ,..,...... .....'....._ ,,,.,.,,.,.. _..,.,...... .,....._ ....._... ...._,..-——.., ,....... 47 York City, a White niinister out there talking- He said sornething about God's children...A White rnan said, "You know, I thought We all God's children." The minister say, ''Oh no, some of us are God's people. Now, God got some children. Now, all of us are not God's ‘children ‘cause God's children are people too. ‘Cause God's people are not his children." And so the man said, "I didn't know-" He said, ".Yeah, he got some children but they his people ain't his children." And there you got it. Q: VVho was he talking about that were his people but not his children? SR: Say What? Q: VVho did he rnean in regards people but .not God ' s children? SR: VVe1l, they say all God's children got rhythrn. They got rhythrn. That's one way you can tell. They got rhythrn. They got certain frequencies. They just do it naturally. They rnight walk in rhythrn. Sorne folks don't even walk right- They walk in rhythxn, they sit down in rhythrn, they strike their instru- rnents in rhythrn, plang! And everything they do is rhythrnio. God's children. Q: So you think that When people have rhythrn they. . . SR: I-Iuh , huh? Q: You think when people have rhythrn God's 'with thern unintelligible? SR: Of course they...The rhythrn is part of 48 God. Because everything rnathernatically. Everything is in perfect harrnonious order. And that's rnusic.-.(tape interruption)...I got a rnovie called Unheard l\/Ielodies. And in this rnovie the scientists had these rna- chines that it would catch the sound of the statue. And when the wind would pass the statue, it rnade the sarne sound. Have you seen that rnovie? Q: No I haven't. SR: It's called Unheard B/Ielodies. VVe1l, they might have it at Chicago Library. They got it at a library in New York. Unheard l\/Ie1o— dies- And they put a ancient statue up there and the wind would pass it and Inade the sarne sound. So then, when these people standing before a statue of Buddha, that statue is throwing out frequencies, vibra- tions. They get Buddharized. Of course Christians got their statue of death up there. And that they stand before this statue of Christ's pdeath unintelligible. Unintelligible people stand before that crucifix, they'll be dead. ‘Cause death got a Inelody too. It's most certainly got a rnelody. And it throws out those death frequencies and vibrations and they keep on listening to it. And they get Weaker and weaker. See, death is not strong- The Bible says death is weak. So death is not strong. It don't need no strength, it got weakness. And it rnakes the person-The power of death is it's weakness. And it rnakes the person weaker and weaker. And when it get it down to a certain zero, they take hirn. Now if that person is weaker than death, he can conquer it. He can con-— quer it if he can go down below that zero, he got it Inade- He'll corne back. If these 49 ,,.,...... .,....._ ......._. ...,_.._.__. ,....,... .,.,,.., . frequencies is rnore than that, that is where... Q: How can sornebody do that? SR: A lot of people doing it but they keep quiet. But don't nobody want to believe thern. They rnight call thetn Witches and everything. It's a lot of people die quite frequent (and) corne back. But they ain't going to tell you ‘cause you rnight say they crazy. And so they just act like they're crazy- You know, a lot of tirnes they acting like they crazy- I rnet a Inan right in Chi- cago, rnidnight, walking around. This Inan say, "You know, I was in the Arrny," and there wasn't nobody on the street but Ine and hirn, "and I been working in this rnental institution since I been out the Arrny. I been working there so long sornetirne I think I'rn crazy. VVhat do you say?" That's Inidnight and I'rn out on the street with this rnan, nobody but rne. So I said, "I don't know you, but you don't look like you're crazy to rne. I don't be judging people. You look perfectly alright to rne-" And then he said, "VVell, thank you." And then he slowed up and unintelligible on the way from that street. But the next day was Sunday and I saw this sarne rnan in church but he was out there just talking. The church people pass (by and said), ''Oh rnan, why don't you shut up with all that crazy stuff?" And then he said, "Judge not, you be not judged. Judge not, you be not judged. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." See? Yes he did. He said, "Judge not that you be not judged" right quick to the church people. He trapped thern. So he wasn't crazy at all- But God got a lot of agents and they'd be—they'd be out there. 50 They niight be acting like they're dope add- icts or crazy. Be careful. That's all I got to tell people: VVatch your step. ‘Cause God is very tricky. He'll show up’ anytime. He can show up in one of thern teenagers and talk to you. And if they talking some stuff, listen very carefully. Listen at thern. If a little baby says sornething he ain't supposed to say, lis- ten very carefully and ask him, what about so and so? He rnight answer you. He rnight answer you. I-Ie'1l tell you exactly where it's at, if you can stand the truth. You can ask hirn, "VVhat do you think about rne?" I-Ie'll tell you. Like I was in Egypt and a teenager was talking to this cabdriver, said, "Son of a bitch!" I said, "You ain't supposed to say that to that rnan. That rnan can go and say he is a son of a bitch." Unintelligible so and so and so and so to me in Egypt. Now, you got-you got to be able to talk to people. And you got to listen- Right on 43rd Street, I heard a black rnan talking, twenty years ago, he say, "You know, it's six days God rnade the heaven and Earth- On the seventh day he rested and ain't a God darnned thing since. That's right, I heard that. I'm always listen- ing. And I went to the park, VVashington Park, and the rnan carne and said, "You know, eventually we going to be back like we was before." And all these people sitting around there listening, black people. He said, "That rneans we going to be like we was be- fore. Before our sex was seperated. VVe all going to have both sexes all, like we was before." But nobody said nothing. Nobody black said.-."Like we was before?" Nobody said nothing. Then he said, " You know, these churches, they ain't no good. Give rne a hundred rnillion rnarchers around the church and every church that was unintelli- 51 . as.-.-.-mas» ... _,,.,...... ,......._ ....._.. ~—-—-..-u—- ‘I--99 gible will fall to the ground. But nobody offered their aid. They didn't say, "VVell, OK let's try-" But they didn't. So then, people always—God always gives people a chance. Yet they don't take it. They in trouble. I stay out of it. I don't want \nothing to do with it. I just tell thern don't rnake rne rnad now. ‘Cause then my spirit take over. It doesn't know what's right or wrong-. It just do the job. Stay out of rny way-. Like I went there in I\/Iexico and they got in my way, wouldn't let us play. VVe supposed to unintel1igible'play the top theater there in I\/Iexico City. The union rnusicians, they got in there and they wouldn't let us play. So I said, "VVe1l, I came to l\/Iexico to bring good news and do sornething beautiful down here. Now, if I can't do sornething beautiful here, I'In going to do sornething ugly. You can't stop that. You might stop rne frorn doing good but you cannot stop rne frorn doing evil. And if I can't play, I'In going to ‘bring sornething in l\/Iexico City to let you know, don't bother rne. I'rn going to tear this Inusician's building down. I'm going to bring a earthquake through here. Going to shake this city so bad the whole world going to hear about it. Now try to stop that." Q: VVhat happened? SR: The earthquake carne. Tore the Inusician's building down...to the ground. VVasn't noth- ing left but kindling and stone. And about six Inonths later earthquake Carrie and tore that building down to the ground. So you see, if you-—if you-If God sends sornebody to do sornething good (and) you won't let hirn do it, he sends sornething bad. He sends sorne- 52 thing bad- Because it's already been activated- So he'll switch that with soniething bad. So this planet could be very beautiful but they have to—they have to listen- They should listen. . . ‘ * Unidentified Inan's voice: VVhen you throw evil out... SR: VVel1, actually—actually. . . UIVIV: If it don't go to where it's supp- osed to go it comes back to unintelligible.-. SR: Yeah, if you're pure. If you're pure, evil can't bother you. But if you're not pure, of course it can. Evil can't bother you if you're pure. Because why? If you're pure and it's pure. .yOu've got’ sornething in corn— nion, purity. You‘ got purity. If you got sornething in cornnion like purity, ain't no— thing going to bother you. If you're not pure, though, you're in trouble. You're in trouble. But I'm pure, you see. I'rn sincere. That's all purity is-. I'rn really sincere. And I can talk to God. 53 w.v.u.m.g,-..x4...~_-... _.... _......... ..~.. ...... .. ......._....... .........._, _.,......... .,....._ ....._... ...:..,-u__.. M.» n-n.-u-.»-u.u.-;z-u.-nan...-...a—.;.._..-.:4-.4-.......- ~—. -.._......-. CONVE RSATION SE PTEAABER 30, 1986 SAN RAFAEL, CA Peter Hinds: I think we're all set to go, Sun Ra. Sun Ra: OK- Ready 1\/Iartin (Banks)? l\/Iartin Banks: VVhere We going? Horne? SR: I'rn going to get Ine a cat o'nine tails for you. (PI-I laughs) Spare the rod, spoil the child. -(PI-I and JH laugh) Jarnes Jackson: They don't rnake thexn that big. 1\/IB: I found unintelligible over there. SR: You need sornebody on you. You been out here too long being free. It's over. You and the rest of the black men. It's over- Take it frorn rne. Everybody have to stand in place. If death coxnes against (you), you be in place. VVhy shouldn't you be in place when I want you in place? I'rn not death. I dernand just as rnuch respect as death. Death coxne to get a rnan, he's right there obedient. Always ready. l\/IB: I'rn going back horne. (Repeats this several tixnes) VVhat happened to rne is my false tooth kept falling out. I didn't have that glue--.They didn't bring my glue for rny teeth- SR: No, that ain't no excuse. VVell, you had thern. You had all the truxnpet playing and you played solo instead of playing your horn. I saw that. l\/IB: That's the reason I don't want to.-.) That's the reason I'rn going to go on back. 54 .\Iso- . “,...,..,. _.,,....... 1......‘ ......._.. V.-—...-._...v-. v,....-. I'rn going to go on back to L.A. ‘cause I don't want to live nothing like that. Danny Thornpson: (Sternly) VVhere you going, Ivlartin? You ain't going nowhere. You better not go nowhere. IVIB: VVe going to go to San Francisco now, don't we? DT: 'VVe going to San Francisco. That's where you going. SR: He just a big coward, that's all. I never thought I'd rneet sorne black rnen who was cowards. I didn't think the Creator rnade sornething like that. I have unintelligible the black rnan. Getting a little respect from thern. Get rne sorne" White ones. Get rne sorne Inean white ones-.- IVIB: Oh no-..You don't want to do that. SR: ...for black ones. I will. I'll get rne sorne white rnusicians if these black ones ain't..-If they can't be rnen like they supposed to be... Going to be big old babies. I don't need ‘thern. (Stops with PI-I, JH and ‘Pat Patrick to look in the window of a pawn shop) A lot of different things in there. Pat Patrick: Check that one. See that? See that bass over there? The Shrine Club. (Pat and Sun Ra laugh) SR: They got a lot of strange stuff in there- Shriners huh? People be innovating. I like people that innovate. Black folks don't (have to) do the same thing all the time. The next thing: I'rn going to get rne a White truxnpet 55 . player. If you go to Los Angeles I'rn getting rne awhite trurnpet player and from then on when I replace one I'll get me a white one. I'rn not going to be bothered- IVIB: You know I ain't going nowhere. SR: I'rn not going to be bothered with no- body obstructing me no rnore. This is it. I got a job to do here and I'rn just one person and the Creator got rne here and all this bullshit and I'rn getting ready to move forward- I don't care who it hurts. I'rn tired. It's ridiculous. John I-Iinds: VVhat's going on tornorrow? VVhat are you up to? \o- -—\ -vv.-onzun 2.315.:-s.'l-L..oua-Izmir:-II~tIa.¢_Aha$l'.\i:lH.-Dqzvsgvsrv. an as 31 n-.~r.r. u. were an nu.- SR: Tornorrow-..TornorroW (I'rn going) to look for rne some white teenagers with some Wild hairdos. I want thern to have all kind of hairdos ‘cause I'rn ready to move forward. So then they got to be looking like nothing on the planet- I'll have thern and teach thern E sorne things I want thern to do. I got to have particular white ones ‘cause I cannot Inake it with the black ones no more all black. I got to have rne some white teenagers with thern hairdos. It look like they're frorn outer space. And I'll teach thern how to sing and I can have thern to be right there and I can do my dances with thern and sing with thern and shake the World. But I want thern to have-..I want thern to be-..Look like they frorn some- where else. VVith thern hairdos and thern facial and thern costurnes. I want that. I don't have tirne to teach the black ones no Inore. I've been teaching nay whole lifetirne and they disappointing me ‘cause I'rn a spirit you V know. I'rn not no rnan. I can't be saying... .2-v-rn--— n-r---~ v.---. v--—~ 7 z--um -4»--.u--an-.. 56 Tell a rnan that do this, that and the other. I reckon rnan is just...too slow I reckon. I don't know. Ain't my nature to be no Inan. But if they clinging on to their ernotions and doing things to slow up I reckon a turtle is just a turtle. I can't expect a turtle to jurnp up and run with rne. 'Cause turtles can't do that- Now, I reckon you got sorne turtle rnen and they just go on and be turtles ‘cause I'rn, not no turtle. I Inove fast. I rnove fast. And I'rn getting ready...I'rn getting ready to rnove fast ‘cause I'rn like that drurnrner, I'm still playing. And I like to do different things. I like to do different things, wonderful things. And I don't just want to lift people's spirits. I want to lift rnine up too. So if I'm doing them different things I'In happy- But if folks slowing up, then it drags rne down. I don't need no gravity to be dragging nie down. You've got sorne gravity folks. I'rn talking about...You've got sorne gravity Inen and they'll drag you on down there. I don't need them gravity Inen. I need these spiritual, happy people who are not really attached to this plane. And you've got sorne, you've got sorne. Now, he's (I\/Iartin Banks) one of thexn but he over there. He can play that trurnpet but he got a lot of Earth things hanging on hirn. ' JI-I: They have a way of clinging, you know. Those kinds of things. Just kind of are al- ways waiting. You have to be very careful. SR: VVell, I can't wait on hirn no rnore. The Creator is always saying, "l\/Iove forward." Now, he told rne to get rne sorne white teen- agers with thexn hairdos. The wildest looking I can find. 57 JI-I: That's a great idea. That's really wild. SR: And then I do rny space stuff. And I can teach thern some space things that the world never heard before. They'll listen to rne. 58 .r~:-xv.-pp-.~<q--- :....._.......4..._.:,... .._.:._.............. ....... ...........- ...... ... _.._..... .... ...v.._......_ _.-....,__,.._....__.~...._\........n............. ...... ...... ....r...... ................. ............ .. .. ......_ _. .._ FRANCISCO CONVE RSATION VVITI-I ’ Jyol-IN I-uNDs AKD PETER I-uNI>s JULY 29, ‘I998 -JAN I=RAN<Is<o, CA Francisco l\/Iora: VVe were playing at the Fox Hall in Philadelphia and Pico and Inc and another one of the guys, we were in the bathroorn. So we go to the bathroom and these white cats is over there and they're pissing. And they say, "l\/Ian, these fucking niggers" and shit you know as we walking through (the door). So Pico (Danny Thoxnpson) and these cats are really out (arguing)- So he goes on one of the cats like, "C)h, I'In sorry rnan." (Fl\/I indicates that DT "accidentally" pisses on one of them) Shit goes everywhere, (laughing) so you know what I rnean? So the white boy goes like (starts sWearing)...you know his dick is hanging out. (continues swearing) And we start swinging (fighting) in the bathroorn but it was like really tight so we didn't have no roorn- So all of a sudden I'm saying, I says wait a rninute rnan, we never going to be able to get out of this shit 'cause I can't even hit, it's too tight. So I go to the door and I'n1 holding the door out and I hold it. and say (to Danny and other band rnernber) get out. So they got out 'cause it was a door that Irioved to the inside- So we out of the bathroorn and I let the door go so all the white cats is inside trying to get out and they're piled up on each‘ other and we're outside getting ourselves together. You know what I Inean? I put rny glasses some- where. So they conie out and we start swing- ing and all of a sudden Sun Ra cornes in- (Sun Ra puts his arrns over the shoulders of the white guys and starts walking thern away) (Sun Ra speaking) "Now baby, darling, now you shouldn't be doing this king of stuff..-" He grabbed all of thexn rnan! It's about six‘ of thern rnan! He just grabbed thern all and walked thern out- Just like that- Powerful 59 ,~m..g....._-‘H-—..--_..___ u-._---—-.-.—..-—_....-....... nus.-u-1-.—-wn.n-—-—.:-«u-.——-.-.w._...—.——.»~.-—.-—v-ck.-.,-.-H-......v._...,..........,...... - ...4.._..u._4...—,..-.._....~..................................,............,.....,....._......__......._......,... cat...It's like hirn and the Universe and the environrnent is the sarne thing. And he knew it. He was very concientious about things. It didn't bypass it...One day I walked to hirn and said, "Sonny, how corne the great rnaster of rnusic on planet Earth-the niaster of the Universe and stuff like that you know—and we don't have a gig? VVe don't rnake any fucking rnoney Inan." I have (had) already been with a nose bleeding (and) been trying to get out of the band badly. I had this drearn that I was real evil cat and I went and told Sonny and I said I was so evil rnan, nobody in the band could hang out with rne. So Sun Ra says, "That's the kind of guys that I need in my band." (Laughs) So one day I said, "Sonny, we don't have a gig nian. VVhat's going on?" So Sonny says, "Ali l\/Iora, you have to learn how to bypass life." And he turn around and split. So I'rn stand-— ing over there thinking about this ‘cause my nose is bleeding and I'rn about 125 pounds and‘ I say zero to the right, zero to the left is the sarne thing. It's about What you exper- ience in life and what you can rnake out of that. Your own personal experience because it's everybody's own personal experience. You know, this is what he's talking about. So I got to go and find out about this. So I realized that tirne that I wasn't going to be in the band. Because it wasn't just like a gig, like playing with sornebody- It was a lifetirne. It was an experience. It's about your_1ife. And that's what I got out of that. 1\/Iost than anything that's what I got out of that. I rea- lized it was about rny life. And nothing in life happens concidential. It's part of the big rnakeup of everything that is going on. Just like you guys had a tirne to share with hirn, I had a tirne to share with hirn. And We all 60 share and experience it and it's sornething I can convey to you about that experience and it's definitely sornething you can convey to me about that experience and we can try to, alnong all of us, Inake something out of that. But We have to go out there and share this with other folks. John Hinds: That's the thing at this point. F1\/I: That's why I love what you guys is doing. You really cornrnited to it. I can see it in. your eyes., I can feel it. This guy (Peter I-Iinds) comes over (at the end of the concert—Car1 Craig Innerzone Orchestra) and slips rne a Sun Ra (post) card and I said Wow rnan! (laughing) JH: I saw your expression. F1\/I: I was like yeah rnan, it's alright. That was like a rnillion dollars! Yeah, sornebody knows what's happening. You know what I mean? 61 _mW__g___g___M__H__p__y_”___p_____,__________,_~_____,_k__.__,_M__._m__m_ . Editor's note: Received a Inessage frorn Danny Thornpson on my answering machine last August 98 re I-Iartrnut Geerken's article from SRR 34 en- titled Hartrnut Geerken VVrites of Sun Ra In Egypt—Decen1ber 1971. In his Inessage DT stated that, "I-Iartrnut Geerken did not go into the pyrarnids with Sun Ra- It was rne, and Bugs (Tonnny Hunter), and another gen- tlernan and that was in the band, and the guide. I-Iartrnut Geerken was not in the pyr- arnids whatsoever with Sun Ra. I want to disrniss one lie." Now, I don't believe we are dealing with lies, Danny. And this illu- strates why it is irnportant to collect as rnany memories as possible when dealing with events such as Sun Ra's visit to the Cheops/ Khufu Pyrarnid. I-Iartrnut Geerken first wrote of Sun Ra's visit to the pyrarnid in the Ger- rnan—Arab rnagazine Arrnant (Issue 9-1971) and then again in Jazz Podiurn (Issue 3-1972) and -«again in his book Obduktionsprotokoll in 1975 and finally in Ornniverse Sun Ra in 1994. See SRR 32 for Tornrny I-Iunter's re- collections of these events and see SRR 28, page 20 for Sun Ra's report. VVhen‘I con-— tacted Danny Thornpson re his rnessage, he declined to be interviewed and referred rne to his interview with the BBC frorn a few years ago. Special thanks to Steve Glabrnan for supply- ing the cassette tape of the Sun Ra Cubby Bear Lounge Conversation (Copyright Steve Glabrnan 1999). Peter I-Iinds—Editor-—June 1 999 62 ‘ .. . . x \:\ u.s\.\ .\“ . \ .... .. w.\«.\.i M... . ..H.. u\..\\. N _\ -. . .x\ . ..x.x \ .\ \ W» .\ N \ N \\\\\\ \\ .u ~ . . \\\ u2\mnms...mmw..\\...\\. .. . .. x .\ \ .. mm.“ \ x V . ..€\\..\ \\ “.mm\\\\\ . . .. \ \ \\w\\. xx \\\\\ \ T..TT....T..T T T TT T T: T U T T T T T I._:... ._T_.._ ;:T:. ;T_ __ ..T T: T... T T T___. T T _T T. T T T T T T T : TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT 2 ::_:T T.___ W T T. T T T_T T T T. T _:T.._TT__.:_. .TT._._.._.__._..___: ?TT_ . T T T T T V T .T. T T T. T T T T T T TTT T T T TT _ :. T T ..TT.TT_.T__..__.,_: T::_ T... T T T TTTTTT TT T T T T TT T T T_:_: _._.:::T:TTTTTT T T TTTTTT T T T T T. T T TT TT T T T. T T TTTTTT T :5. HT. T T T : T _.TT. TT T T T T T T T T T __ g T _ _—_ _. .__a._ .._....T T T _ .>.T T T T T . L. T T_.._:_ TT T. T TT T T T T T T . _TT:T::T TTTTT T .T T T T... ..:__Z:T .2: T T _ T. 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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-37
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 38 (1999)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 1999-01-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: . R E s E A M H SUN IzA»sEp1'. 1979 ........... .. 1 SUN IzA»Nov.4, 1988 ......... ..16 TOMMY HUNTER «Aua. 23, 1993. .21 JOHN GILMORE » ocr. 14,1934. . . .23 SUN RA RESEARCH |ssuE 38 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1999 $7.00 » OUTSIDE u.s.: $9.00 . OMNI PRESS ‘ P.O. BOX 786 ’ N\II. RAE, CA 94030 E- All.: omnisonic@we v.nef WE ITE: www.sunraresearch.com ;: z ' : ::";L:,.!- I _ / /////I} 4 .///l/ o I A /‘/ $.25 Ia , X J I 9 I 9 :....4s . 1.5).») fr .5» . J. . . /.fa15 _....,. W. ..,...$¥, I .4, e. 3...; ma’ o I NTE RVIEVV VVITH DUNCAN CAN\PBE L L VVCBN - FN\ ANN ARBOR, Ml. SEPTEMBER 1979 Sun Ra: VVel1, I think Arnerica should have at ’ least a rnonth of carnivals- They should have stadiurns too where they have sornething aside football garnes. They should have people corning out to see entertainers like they corne out and see boxing and other garnes- They should have that because ernpty country without full scope of culture- l\/Ioney isn't everythi...
Show more. R E s E A M H SUN IzA»sEp1'. 1979 ........... .. 1 SUN IzA»Nov.4, 1988 ......... ..16 TOMMY HUNTER «Aua. 23, 1993. .21 JOHN GILMORE » ocr. 14,1934. . . .23 SUN RA RESEARCH |ssuE 38 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 1999 $7.00 » OUTSIDE u.s.: $9.00 . OMNI PRESS ‘ P.O. BOX 786 ’ N\II. RAE, CA 94030 E- All.: omnisonic@we v.nef WE ITE: www.sunraresearch.com ;: z ' : ::";L:,.!- I _ / /////I} 4 .///l/ o I A /‘/ $.25 Ia , X J I 9 I 9 :....4s . 1.5).») fr .5» . J. . . /.fa15 _....,. W. ..,...$¥, I .4, e. 3...; ma’ o I NTE RVIEVV VVITH DUNCAN CAN\PBE L L VVCBN - FN\ ANN ARBOR, Ml. SEPTEMBER 1979 Sun Ra: VVel1, I think Arnerica should have at ’ least a rnonth of carnivals- They should have stadiurns too where they have sornething aside football garnes. They should have people corning out to see entertainers like they corne out and see boxing and other garnes- They should have that because ernpty country without full scope of culture- l\/Ioney isn't everything you know. Other countries got culture. They rnight be poor but they're happier although they cornplain too. Still they have this cultural factor going on. They don't care how poor they are- VVhich is Very irnportant. It's one thing Arnerica hasn't reached forward to- Duncan Carnpbellz Reached to‘ the culture you rnean. SR: Cultural level is irnportant. And that's what I'rn doing. I'rn doing sorne things on a cultural—a celestial cultural basis you see. VVhich is, rnight be over sorne people's head but .so is the sky you know. DC: VVhy do you say it's celestial? SR: Because I'rn—I don't have the Earth Inind you see. Feeling. I don't have the feeling that the Earth way of thinking and the Earth way of righteousness will be suitable to rnake hu- rnanity happy. I don't have any faith in the Earth righteousness or in the things they are , doing which they think are right and I can see the fruits of it in the teenagers that are lost. Have to judge a tree by the fruit. The teenagers in Arnerica are lost you know. I They don't have anything to hold on to and that's bad. DC: VVhat should they be holding on to? SR: They should be holding on to cultural things. But they haven't—they're not taught any, any cultural things and all they know about is Inoney, Inoney, rnoney, rnoney'and freedorn, freedorn, freedom, freedorn- VVhich is not—VVhich is one sided. ' DC: Freedoni , huh? SR: Yes, it is a bad word now. And this dispensation freedorn and liberty and peace are all trigger words for disaster- Unfor- tunately people haven't studied the Bible enough to see it plainly written. VVel1, all they have to do is go out in the cernetary and they'll see rest in peace- And that's the only peace they'll get. And all they have to do is go to a undertaker and they'll be hav- ing sorne rites there- Funeral rites and that's the only rites they'll get you see. Equal rites. And sorneone has set up sorne things on this planet with words that are very drastic for hurnanity unless they have the intelligence enough to see the truth and then rise up above the truth, they're not going to Inake it- VVhich is totally different what they teach in churches and schools but they won't rnake it unintelligible the truth. Not in this age you see. This science fiction is offering hurnanity a Way out even though it's fiction. But it's taking place every day and fulfilling itself- Like the space shuttle. And I always have talked about rnyth science and things of that sort because I know eventually Arnerica will have to turn to the rnyth like the rest of the countries did you see. In ancient days the ancestors of everyone here always built what they were doing on a rnyth and not the .....Z€~?$Z£i!2Z£¢5:?.......... . ....! truth. Because they could take a rnyth and rnanipulate it and produce sornething wonder- ful. But they couldn't do anything with the truth because it was all bad you know, about this planet- DC: Could you describe a rnyth? SR: VVell, a myth is sornething like saying that it's possible for people to reach toward irnrnortality - DC: And you think that's what we need? SR; And a rnyth is sornething like saying there's a Creator that had no beginning and no end. There was eternal and always will be. You can't even say it has been- And that's a Inyth too. It's...It's rnore profound than Ina- gic. And the fact that people are here on this planet is incredible. The whole thing is in- credible you see. And when people wake up to the fact about the incredibility of thern even being around here, they rnight change and reach forward toward the irnpossibilities which are Waiting for them to touch upon. You have a big endless universe and an ornniverse out there and it's just sitting out there doing nothing but waiting. DC: VVaiting for us. SR: That's right, it's waiting. VVhereas in the Ineantirne planet Earth is waiting for people to be buried down in it because it's a carniv- orous planet you know. Actually if it wasn't,‘ you could bury a person down in the ground, it would revitalize thern. But instead of that it eats thern up you know. So it's carnivo- rous. And when they start facing basic facts which are all very terrible, then rnaybe the scientists on this planet will start to doing sornething creative. And instead of building destructive things they will start building instructive things. In a way of being that is greater than life- Because life itself is a very bad terrn because you can see the products of life- Every day you can see ’people who crippled, blind, dead and dying. All products ‘of life- And...But being is a totally different story. They should reach toward that. Like it's written: Te or not to be? That's the question. And they start dealing with poets who couldn't really say what they Want to say and they put it over in code. And you have to go back and read all the poets and all the philosophers and investigate all the religions of ancient days and you'll find some startling truths that are better than the truths that people worship today- And that's where it's said. Over in the Syrian language and the Norse religions- It's all over in that you see. But they feeling they so rnodern that they don't need that- But they do need it. Desperately. And that's what my rnusic is about. It's trying to give people irnpressions of sornething else. VVhich you have a lot of Inusicians who are doing what they call free forrn. But actually rny rnusic is very disci- plined and everybody in Iny band, if they staying there, they have to follow some very hard discipline, rules and codes. And it's not for the average rnan to be in. ‘Cause he Wouldn't be able to rnake it. ‘Cause the ave- rage rnan is just like a baby you rnight say. And he has to be pacified and his ego has to be satisfied and then he'll just go straight to hell if you—that's all you have to do. And that's what some superior beings are doing too. They taking advantage of human beings 4 , ...._¥_._-.«:.»5.-.»i«!»;;.;-.«r.-4‘-_, - - - - - - - - - who are still in the baby stage. VVe were talking—Sorne fellows in my band was talking to Bud Freeman in Chicago and he said the sarne thing. He said that Inan, they irnrnature and just a few individuals have graduated to this stage of really having love in their heart and kindness- And the rest of thexn are out of it. VVhich is quite true. So you got a whole planet that is doing things that's ri- diculous. And all this confusion and rebellion for people seeking for things in the narne of freedorn and hurting people because they think they doing right, you see. And nothing happens on this planet bad except to people who think they doing right. And they do these things very zelously with intent to try and rnake a better world- And yet what they doing is...is sornething bad. And you can't really make a better world doing something bad. Unidentified voice: (Off rnic) Do you think rebellion is bad? SR: VVe1l...yes, the one to rebel against is God you know. And that is an antogonist that is not to be easily fought against. But the true enerny of rnan is God. And they have to face it. Because that's the one who pronounces the sentence of death on rnan, you see. And they die only because he said so. And not because he was supposed to. It would just take one word from God and people could live forever. But they trying to build a world without knowing that death is the ruler here on this planet. That if they realize that, if they want to rebel, rebel against death. Rebel against God. Rebel against someone that would be quite an adventure. And atornic bornbs can't do it you know. Takes Inore than that. But I'rn sure if every rnan on this planet realized that he's just a puppet and a pawn, they rnight get together and try to do sornething else instead of fighting one another. It's that tirne you see- It's now or never- You know; rnan could either rise up above just being a Inan and be anything but a rnan you know. Be a angel. Or even a dexnon, you know, is better than being a rnan. 1\/Ian don't stand a chance. He's a loser frorn the day he's born. VVornan too you know- ‘Cause the first rnan and wo-— rnan didn't rnake it. So how did they think they could rnake it? They _didn't rnake it. So it cornes down to—See, I'rn a scientist rnyself. And I see things the way they are. And I don't try to rnake thern any other way- Be- cause it's not going to do any good you see. I've watched a lot of people corne up being saviours and really doing wonderful things for people and ever since I was a child I watched that. And they all carne to sorne bad ends. VVith all that good Works and all their nice words. And they really didn't deserve that- But still it happened. I've seen un- selfish people devote a whole lifetirne helping hurnanity. There was no recognition of their services. So I wondered why, why didn't God give thern credit? And that's why I went on rny research to find out why? I found out why. Because they following the wrong words. You know, it's just like you in a chernical——chernistry laboratory and you rnix up certain chernicals together. If you don't’ know what you're doing you rnight have an explosion and it doesn't make any difference whether you know that's going to be the reaction. If you rnix thern together, that's what's going to happen if they supposed to explode. And words are like that. And people 4.".'(4:".”4.5.‘S?.. . . "'E7~7..?i'."."T"~.".*.'.-‘.'.“Lv.'-E)‘“’—!1t3.*‘:!e‘*‘- are putting these Words together and they Inaking slight errors in spelling, in pro- nounciation and interpretation and in defi- nition of words. Like I said, one of the tricky words for disaster is freedorn, lib- erty-.-And you can see every country in the world has got turrnoil in their country- They're the ones talking about freedorn and liberty. And you can look at Africa today, ’Uganda and other places. And you can see the results. And here in Arnerica, land of liberty. VVell, lot of problerns. It sound like a nice word and is a nice word...for those who are willing to die for it, you know. You know, Patrick Henry said give rne liberty or give rne death and he got both of thern at the sarne tirne. The first black rnan—Crispus Att- ucks was talking about liberty too- And he got killed too- Napoleon, he was fighting for something, freedom of people too. He ended up in jail. Joan iof Arc, we played there too. She ended up burned at the stake. All history testified to—Like l\/Ioses freed the people out of Egypt they say. He ended up dead. And they all ended up dead in the desert just like pharoah told them. Facts are facts. Then you got a problern in Arnerica where you got a lot of people over here that carne over here through the Commerce Departrnent, black people. And they carne over here as things rather than people. Now the problernz You can't take things and rnake people out of thern. Unless you go all the way back to the past and gave everyone who canie to this country as a slave passports. Then black people would have legal status in this country, you know. Right now they have none and never will have any until their an- cestors are given passports. You know, you _ dealing with law. And they left Africa without 7 passports too. And Africa should give them passports. Because if you dealing with the law and expect the law to protect you, you got to be exact. And Africa should give what you call posthurnous passports to everyone who left there- They also should pay sorne rnoney-—They supposed to be paying welfare for black people now. A lot of things could be done and all at once the planet would take a turn for the better. Right is right and wrong is wrong. It rnost certainly is proper for Africa to do that. And the Arabs too. It's proper for thern at this tirne to corne forward with billions of dollars for rehabil- Aitations, cultural renaissance. ‘Cause I see sorne black people out there that are on status lower than beasts in Arnerica and that is really a condernnation upon the Arnerican systern to have people like that walking around here. You know, it's alright to talk about dernocracy and all that but if you got one person in Arnerica who's lower than a beast and cornpletely without culture, then it's not a good governrnent. Any govern- rnent that has things for one set of people and nothing for the other set of people is not pleasing to God. And that's the reason the other governrnents fail. ‘Cause they doing the sarne thing Arnerica doing now. They fail because Arnerica's the last stronghold for rnan, you know. This will either be succesful or to fall. And the Creator can send sorne people frorn Uranus, Jupiter to take over this planet. VV'hich I don't doubt is going to happen unless these people get themselves together. I'rn already on good ternis with people on other planets so I have nothing to worry about. But I'm worried about people on this planet who think they are the only ones in the Universe or the Ornniverse. And _.,..... ...... .- .... ......~r.~...g.:;v-1... ,=-.._-.......;.._..» ....v.-..........-_-.;—._.. .- - _ . .. .".?..'.‘{*!€7.~;.'3-:'!'f!’4:‘!:!-!€‘*::¥.’.'E"'='e1:>~2!'. E‘ 13 i - —.—.—a$&-3:‘: :- : they say there's no life out there. They're quite correct but life is considered as a very bad terrn arnong outer space beings. It's cornpletely irrelevant and unirnportant. They don't speak of life, they speak of being. Besides that the Bible has God saying, "Don't touch the tree of life." VVhy would he say that’? It was a good tree. But here you got Arnerica talking about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I rnean, it doesn't guarantee happiness. It give you the right to pursue happiness but it never says you're going to catch it, you know- And life is sornething bad and liberty is sornething bad. I-Ience Arnerica is in lirnbo- This is really lixnbo here- This a nice country. Got a lot of things, Inove fast but it's ernpty corn- pared to European countries. Very enipty. And that is really not good. So they have to do the unintelligible- They do an unintelli- gible- They have to turn now before it's too late. They don't even have to worry about enernies from Europe or Asia. They have to worry about---of (a) being this so superior that you can't say suprerne. So superior and beyond description that rnan couldn't even conceive of it with his rnind or his spirit could even touch the magnificence of the one who rnade everything. And so I'm trying to present that to people in Iny rnusic. ‘Cause I've seen things and heard things that (are) irnpossible and I felt if I could give irnpres— sions to people of sornething other than what they know, other kind of happiness, they might, they rnight turn for their own good. Not for Inine. I don't have anything on planet Earth. ‘Cause I never tried to get anything because it's here today and gone tornorrow anyway. But I tried to reach out in my rnusic and play something that would be eternal‘. 4 That could be played anywhere in the Ornni— verse, and appreciated by other type of be- ings. And that's the reason all my rnusic is rneticulously put together. Because it's telling a story, you see. And this story's about the vast potential of all hurnanity to rise up above the Inost rniserable, aborninable state called life and death. So see, the rnusic is very profound and a lot of Inusicians haven't seen that, you know. They haven't seen it ‘cause they thinking about glory and they thinking about rnoney and I've been able to go through the years without money. And I couldn't have done it with the aid of human beings who didn't understand and still don't understand. But I'rn not depending upon thern to understand anyrnore- I'rn depending on thern to feel that what I'rn doing is real and of ixnportance to thern. That they listen V careful to the music. A lot of rnusicians are doing things, wonderful things. But will it rnatter a thousand years from today what they doing‘? But if you got a rnusic that is talking about sornething else for hunrianity, I think it's tirne for hurnanity to listen. You know, even if they think that what I'rn doing is totally irnpossible. They should—still should listen ‘cause truth is stranger than fiction they say. I realize I'rn talking some things which sound very sirnple. But I'rn thinking about just going out and getting Ine some people and say, well ok, now all the freedorn people stand over there and all the people . who believe in the word discipline stand over here. And then I can show the world what I'rn talking about. I can show theni which_ side the Creator is on. Then they would know. But otherwise, how else would they know? A lot of people corne along on. There's prophets and different things and 10 .. ...........l....._._......................._. . .........._-..-.... .__,_._...-......_...1..e....;:—=v.....‘........~..,..__.,.....=......,_=..._.;.-l M9!_J!.¢.'.49““.“'!!.!!L'!f’.l.!'P‘.?!+!'~u!€r‘:='5!!>'|7’=: 1;.-3 ej-‘-'.- they did alright for a while. Then all at once they went here and what they were talking about was through. So that's the reason I never tried to get out to be a public figure, toward being a rninister or politician, nothing like that. 'Cause I realized people got their right to choose and I was not looking for anybody. I know I know the real truth con-- cerning hurnanity. And I looked for it be- cause I wanted to find out. Other people probably don't have a need to look for anything else. They're satisfied with Earth things. And I'In not supposed, to disturb - their tranquility. I mean, why disturb a bug that's got a nice horne under a rug? And that's what humanity is as far as I'm con- cerned. They snug bugs in a rug. But sorneday the owner of the house will corne along and take the rug up and put a new rug down. Then what's going to happen? Then the bug will find out it wasn't his rug and it wasn't his house and it wasn't his horne. But we had so rnany people corne along who wrote such beautiful poetry and wonderful plays and books and did such wonderful unselfish things and you don't read about them in history. They didn't get any rnedals you see. But anyway, my words to humanity is space is the place and, in Arnerica, my word to Arnericans is that your governrnent, spending billions of dollars seeking to get into outer space, I think you should becorne more involved in space things. And ask to see what they saw. Because ‘ you're not asking. You don't see what the astronaut see because you're not asking him to see it. Because with money and other things, you should be concerned what they're seeing and then maybe it would be better be- cause travel broadens ones rnind and if you 11 could see what the astronauts were seeing by requesting the governrnent to let you see, if they see some UFO's, you ‘should request to see everything because your life is, I rnean, well, your being is irnportant- And you should know if there's some UFO's flying around here. I rnean, Arnericans are not that immature to panic because there's sorne niore beings in the universe beside theni. And I think they should state it. The gov- ernrnent would be quite happy because they keep on saying that the people of Arnerica are not ready for the truth concerning UFO's. I think they're ready. Because they go to see all the space pictures. And some ' of the pictures they got out are so dreadful,‘ they should be ready for anything. I just saw a picture called The I-Iowling which is rnost rernarkable for, it's indescribable, you know. And if they can stand to see that, they can stand to see anything and hear anything. 'Cause all the pornography.-.I rnean, they been taken down to the depths of sharne so I do think it's tirne to rise up to the heights celestial glory. 'Cause I think huInanity's hit the bottorn. DC: VVell, let's hope rnaybe for some celestial" glory tonight . SR: That's what I'm going to play- Celestial glory- ' V DC: Can you just tell us quickly what kind of group you're going to be playingwith? SR: VVell, I'rn...I'rn playing——I'rn introducing a new instrument that's never been heard before in Ann Arbor which is a instrument that you blow like a trumpet but it has the 12 EL range of a piano- (Steiner———Parker Electronic VVind Instrurnent) It's not like any other wind instrurnent- It's electrical but you-—The only way to sound (is) if you blow into it. Twenty years ago when I was telling rnusicians about an instrunient that would be rnade you could blow and they say well, it's irnpossible ‘cause the players would get electrocuted blowing into a electronic instrurnent. But I got it with me tonight. In fact, I got two of them. I had three but one of thern disappeared rnyster— iously. So, but anyway, fortunately I got them in ROITIC and they're not in the stores in Arnerica and they're not in the stores in Italy and this band is the only one that... VVe're ahead again, you know, in electronics. Unidentified voice: Is June (Tyson) with you this evening? SR: Yes, she's...And they doing sorne more things on Inulti rhythrns, rnulti rnelodies, rnulti feelings. l\/Iusic with another type of purpose. 'Cause rnusic is a language and...I been told by a psychic in Cleveland that I'rn supposed to—that the space people depending on rne to wake up the conciousness of people on this planet because they feel that these people a-re prirnatives here and they want me to take the rnusic and awaken thern to a sense of something else and then they could land. I've been told that. UV: VVhat awakened you? SR: VVhat awakened rne? UV: VVhen did you first realize you were Sun Ra? 13 SR: VVhen I arrived on the planet I was narned what you Inight call Arrnan which is backwards is N—A—IVI—R—A. Because the word was I-Ierrnan but in French you don't——that's the Way the Arnericans say it. But in French you don't say I-Ierrnan, you say Arrnan and in Gerrnan you don't say I-Ierrnan, you say Arrnan and that was my naxne when I arrived here. UV: Didn't you take a turning at some point and began to develop your philosophy? SR: VVell, I just, I just used my great grand- father Was narned Alexander...VVes Alexander. I can trace back that far and Alexander was really originally spelled A—L—E-X—A—N—D—R— A and not E-R like they spell it in Arnerica. So then if you leave the A off you got Lex- andra. I was narned that all along, you know. actually, he was a rnusician too. Played violin. UV: I just wondered, did you know all the things you now know and tell people about even in childhood or did this corne to you? SR: VVell, they said when I arrived on the planet I distinctly said, "VVho's Inan?" And everybody testified (that Sun Ra said), who's rnan? At least, that's what I said, "VVho's Inan?" And I suppose since I said it when I arrived here, I kept on until I found out who the land belongs to. The true landlord of planet Earth- According to the Bible, it's Lucifer. And I have no reason to doubt it. .But it took rne a long time to find out the landlord . DC: Thank you, it's getting late Sun Ra. 14 «z:n-.,..._.u...u............_............ ............... . .... . _. A SR: Alright. VVel1, I rode down and to do some things on celestial order. I'rn trying to do something about Arnerica. UV: Thank you for talking to us. SR: Thank you for listening-‘ 15 i i i! is 3; 1: ‘ l‘ H: . 5.‘; IV ‘L ji 1.2 1:1 ti? ii J? .1 1 W X41 jk INTE RVIEVV KCRVV — FlV\ LOS ANGELES, CA NOVEMBER 4, 1988 __ _ . _..,, .. r.;~g.~,A.. -...-.‘-.-.~_...—.—,—.-_._.“..«.;,‘_ ._ ,_-;.L- , .. -1--,-_-.-_-_;-_~.«~ e..L....u "«"'”’-’<‘.'.".'.’!.4.‘.".'.-.*-Ir‘:-3.‘.-.*'Flr"ll”' 5.‘?:‘:?.»'.'«':~"”-5.!‘ Sun Ra: A different systern has to be devised for black teenagers. Different systern. I got the systern of how they can learn. But they have to use what their ancestors (used). That systern will work. Very sirnple, where they can understand languages. Because, you know, all Americans, white and black got to study these other languages. Of course, these people in other countries know English and not too rnany white people nor black people know these different languages in Europe- You go over there, practically all of them know English. You go over there, you don't know Russian, you don't know French, you don't know nothing, you know- Just an ignorant country as far as language is concerned. If you don't know people's languages and don't understand their culture, you Inost certainly will have false irnpressions of thern. And that's what Arnerica has to do. They got to know other nations because they really the rulers of the world in certain as- pects. And guns and shooting people don't rnake friends. Interviewer: That's for sure. Let's play sorne music from this alburn, New Steps on I-Ioro Records. This was recorded in January‘ of 1978- And we're going to be playing l\/Iy 1 Favorite Things that, of course, John Col—- % trane, .really I guess, was the rnan in Jazz Inusic, Afro Arnerican rnusic, Afro Arnerican Classical music, whatever you want to call it, made famous. It was sornething that reached out to a lot of people. You were—You Inet ‘ John Coltrane, you talked to hirn didn't you? SR: Yeah, well I really put him on top through spiritual wisdorn and that was the direction, you know. He was with l\/Iiles 16 use-.-.«.-.—.-nu-.~;a¢ce.sx»x.;.,.:. «o-.~. . ...u..w...m.. R. \M..\\.........u.¢.. ‘ ........7. < 5... . . ... l ~. 1.... . .. ....,..(........:?x Davis when I rnet hirn- See, I was really putting out sorne parnphlets and things to rny friends on rny research and it wasn't supposed to be given to everybody but Pat Patrick was over there talking to hirn and gave hirn some of this forbidden literature. That opens up a persons mind for to get anything they want in the world. I said then that Inaybe it wasn't Inature enough to have that wisdorn- That he get on top and he be obliterated if he wasn't pure in heart. I told Pat you shouldn't have done ‘that. But I went and I ta1ked—I rnet hirn then and -I talked to hirn and, well, first thing——and I played sorne music for hirn that not even anybody in this band heard, you know- It's not on record either. That's when he said he was going to leave l\/Iiles and he was going to go on his own ‘cause some things he wanted to play but he had been afraid to play it but he said I see the direction I want to go- So then that's when he left and he got that——And he was always trying to reach just what he heard like that. On that soprano he was reaching toward that (and) the whole thing changed. And he was playing in New York and I'd go there and talk to hirn- I-Ie'd be playing at the Appollo Theater and he'd corne and talk to rne in between shows and all that, you know- But when he got rnore and rnore farnous he didn't corne around. That was a rnistake. You know, he didn't develop beyond the nioney. The last tirne I saw hirn he said, "VVel1, I don't have—I don't have any rnore ideas." I said, "That's dangerous." I said, "You know what? You should corne rehearse with rne and let the world know where you got that in the first place. It's irnperitive. Let thexn know where you got it." But he never rnade it, you know. It was too late. 17 v - .. 1». I: I would have loved to have heard hirn with the Arkestra. That would have been some- thing- SR: Yeah, it would have been but it was too late. SR: VVhen rnusicians get with rne they play differently anyway. So you hear Archie Shepp like you've never heard hiin before on so- prano rnostly. I-Ie be playing sornething else, another dirnension. That's ‘cause he couldn't play his regular thing, you know. ‘Cause I was playing sorne other kind of chords so then he had to create. It wasn't where you got your thing together rnentally ‘cause then I was playing two and three keys at the sarne—I rnean in different keys and then I was playing rhythxns against rhythrn. One rhythrn with one hand, 7/4 tirne, the other in 4/4 with 3/4 and I was constantly changing. That rneans that a rnusician have to.--he got to really irnprovise. Another kind of—I-Ie got to create. I'll put it like that. ‘Cause he can't play his regular thing- I: That's great- SR: Everytirne he think he's going to play his regular thing I make a wrong chord and then he got to—it's disturbing. And then I Inake the wrong chord sound right and then they have to feel their way around to try to get back in. They don't know the key I'rn playing in. You see, that's it. They don't know no- thing. I found out that people like you better when you don't know what you're doing. ‘Cause they don't know what they doing- 18 So then you don't know what you're doing, they feel cotnradship with you. If you know what you're doing and you so versed you know it, it rnakes thern feel bad but then they see _you don't know what you doing. You're feeling your way through and they have to do that every day in their daily life- So then they can, they seern to understand that better when you, when you just Inaking it, you know- It look like you're not going to Inake it and then you do. And that's what they be waiting on. Because then that rneans in their daily life where they don't know what they doing, they going to rnake it too be- cause they've heard it and they got the irri- pression how to do it- That things could be going wrong but you still convert unintelli- gible. And you get the inspiration to do things beyond what you can do- You do the irnpossible. I: You got to challenge thern. SR: Right. And then you won't have any bag rnen and bag wornen out there. They can do some things too- But they broke down ‘cause they couldn't handle the systern. The systern is getting so it can't handle itself in one sense. It needs sorne—It needs some help. You know, one of rny, rny records, I'In saying that-..that...that it's going to be some help frorn other sources for leaders ‘cause leaders are almost endangered species. I: That's true- Spiritual leaders definitely. SR: VVell... I: I rnean I think that's probably one of the main reasons that we're in the problems that 19 IL we've had and are going to have is that we just can't have a spiritual leader. SR: The only difficulty is the good book which says, "VVhy be righteous over rnuch? VVhy should you destroy yourself?" So you can't be too righteous. If you're too right- eous it's forbidden. A lot of spiritual leaders don't know that. See, that's the reason I'rn not saying I"rn righteous ‘cause you take—As bad as this planet is to go out talking about rescuing people in their present position, you'd really—It would be totally wrong. Because they don't deserve it. But the point of it is synipathy and kindness and friend- ship and love overlooks those particular things. 20 row HUNTER CONVE RSATION VVITI-I PETER HINDS AUGUST 28, 1998 R:-}E§5'Z'-"V " '-‘-‘-'-‘:‘.-2~Z-I~'- "‘~'*Z-Z~2~2‘..7.-Z~3C%Z'l."‘Z*Z'§'K§3t$f3t3T~fZ§35€‘=‘?%_ " ‘ Tornrny Hunter: And Joe Segal (Owner of the Jazz Showcase in Chicago) don't bite his tongue. I rnean he talked to Sun Ra like Sun Ra's his brother. ‘Cause he liked Sun Ra and Sun Ra liked Joe Segal. But Sun Ra wouldn't go no place with Joe Segal by his self though- But I Inean he would sit down at the hotel and talk to hirn and he would have Danny (Thornpson) and Eloe (Ornoe) with hirn- And at the sarne tirne when we worked at—the last tirne I played with Sun Ra was for Joe Segal. He had rnoved to a new hotel, like the Black sornething hotel, Blackstone or whatever it was- And Dexter Gordon was playing there with—VVe was playing...but any- way, on this night that we was living there, Dexter Gordon and Von Freeinan was play- ing together. VVell, I know Dexter quite well ‘cause I had played with Dexter in a jazz club in Stockholrn which I was (in the) house band. So he (Sun Ra) told rne, "Go askADexter Gordon if he would Inake a alburn with nie." So I went down to the lunch roorn, Dexter Gordon carne in (and said), "I-Iey rnan, good to see you again. VVhat you been doing? VVhat are you doing over here? You're a Swedish Inan now. 1\/Iy narne is Dexter Gordon." Said real loud. But anyway, we sit down and we had breakfast‘together and I‘ told hirn, "Sun Ra wants to know if you want to do an alburn with hirn" And he says, "VVel1, you get back to rne and let rne know what the finances are. And the financial arrangernents and what's the percentage and what n-ot and I'll have rny people get in touch with hirn." And Sun Ra let it go. ‘Cause he wanted to do a alburn off the cuff (spon- taneously), you know. But Dexter didn't want to go for that. 21 Tornrny Hunter: The only thing Sun Ra said to rne...VVell, he wouldn't let rne speak to the press. He wouldn't let rne be interviewed on the radio and he told rne, "I can't allow you to go and talk on the radio ‘cause you tell the truth." And he said, "I don't want thern 2 to know that you recording the band. I don't want thern to know because if they do every- body will be corning to you and wanting to know how you do it and I know you, you'll tell thetn and even show thern. And then we won't have no, we won't be unique any rnore." So he would keep rne away from all the press. Even when we was in Sweden and I could speak Swedish, he wouldn't let rne. They wanted to—They needed an inter- preter, he wouldn't let me do it, you know. So...he told me I was too truthful. And you know, he always was telling Ine—about giving me equations about truth and lies- VVell, he didn't call thern lies. .n..r -u..‘;.-..-1:-yirf.‘ ' " Peter I-Iinds: VVe1l, he liked to keep a rnystery going. TI-I: Yeah, he would say, "If you tell a truth all the tirne you have no energy flow.'' It gets, it's like a battery. A battery runs out and then it's finished. You don't get no action. But as soon as you tell sornething else that's not a truth, you get a flow. You get a reaction. And the reaction leads to something else and something else leads to something else and you get something going. And that's what you need to be noticed, you know. Sun Ra was a genius in doing that and talking and doing interviews and stuff like that. He was a genius and Sun Ra was the type of person, if you listened to hirn, we was never out of work. It was always we got this job in 22 ' »'-:-:-...-‘=..=~:r=.-"...~'~'-:-:-.-:34--ass‘ I i 9 I I 1 ‘.3.%¥¥~.’<'.'%¥_.. “ ' Canada and so and so and so and so. And they been asking rne to corne to Paris to teach in this university and bring parts of the band. I don't want to break up the band and..-a1l ofthis. It's always sornething that ’ he had and rnernbers of the band knew that it wasn't there but whoever was writing and was listening didn't know it, you know. So as a result, we started getting bookings. And I tell 1\/Iarshall (Allen) now: l\/Iarshall, when people come and ask you are you working? You should of learned sornething from Sun Ra. Don't tell thern you're not working. Tell thern you're working on something that is taking your time. And you're working on a new thing for the band and you got to get it ready and you got this and that. I said, hey, if that's the Way it Worked for hirn. He was teaching all of us. It's tirne, that you should have learned, you know...Just look at how he ran the band. Tornrny Hunter: There was a French rnagazine that wrote a article one time. VVe played we played in Prinz (?) and this French rnagazine wrote a article about me. I never saw it. Peter I-Iinds: Early 70's? TI-I: They wrote a article about rne and about my playing and they said that I was the one that was doing sornething. But Sun Ra was furious about it. He was furious about that article. ' PH: Because you had talked? TI-I: No, they didn't talk.’.. 23 PI-I: They just talked about you. TI-I: Yeah, they didn't interview rne. They reviewed the concert. And they wrote favorably about my playing- And the article about rne was longer than the article about Sun Ra- Sun Ra got rnad and put rne way in the back next (tirne) we played. That tirne I was sitting next to Sun Ra. But the next place We played, Sun Ra put rne way in the L back. Put Lex (I-Iurnphries) next to hirn- And then he had another young drurnrner that couldn't play but he could do solo and all of that stuff (and) put hirn in the rniddle where Lex used to be. The bottorn of the whole band just fell out because Lex was no driving drunirner. Lex don't drive the band. Lex will play and keep the ternpo and keep whatever Sun Ra gives hirn to play- He's got a mem- ory like an elephant and that's the way Lex played. Lex never drove anybody- It was like I pushed the band, you know, because I had a lot of big band experience. So I played with Sun Ra a long tirne before he even got a band. So I rnean, I had learned to play frorn hirn, you know- And he used to take rne by to hear Red Saunders and he said that at that tirne Fletcher Henderson, (Sun Ra) was with the band. And but I never remembered Fletcher Henderson. If I did, ‘cause at that tirne I didn't know anything about Fletcher I-Ienderson. Bud Powell was rny rnan- You know, I didn't know anything about Fletcher I-Ienderson. And I didn't know anything about.-.Art Taturn. I didn't know anything about Art Taturn. I Inean, I canie up it was Bud Powell and Thelonius l\4onk. I didn't know anything about those guys. It wasn't what I was listening to. And so he said that I had Inet Fletcher I-Ienderson. VVell, I know I 24 '.-Z-I-Z-S-I-Z-E1-2'3"-.&‘-s‘-2-I-ﬁﬁfﬁ- 2~EeZ‘2~IRI-E;.2F.%3s'~E}2§} 2<€‘ -}?%%_§r% , rnet Red Saunders ‘cause I used to go by and sit in for Red Saunders on Inonday nights. l\/Ionday Inornings rather, they had the breakfast (show). And rnonday nights they was off and Sun Ra would often have the band, you know. So Inonday nights I _ never really Went because I had to have a ‘ substitute for Sun Ra. If he Was playing I would have to get a substitute for hirn. Or somebody to play with me in Sun Ra's place. And his narne was Trucks Kingslow. And (also) Billy Cargisle. He would be real young then. At that tirne he played sirnilar to Errol Garner. 25 1 GILMORE CONVERSATION E wrrH JCJI-Ihl I-III~lD§, PETER I-IIINIIJS AND TYRONE I-IILI. DRIVING FR()lV\ SAN FRABICISCCJ TO BERKELEY, CA OCTOBER 14, ‘I984 41% ' ' 3'" ~:~:-:-';§~:(~:—..&L-:-: ‘-'~ ' ‘ ' -V‘V‘-é§$Y‘?<“ .h:-:<:-_'~:«:-2:.‘-:-_'-2..-"=‘_—_~:4:-E5‘?- &3:-‘ John Gilrnore: (Travelling by autoinobile from San Francisco to Berkeley—C)ne Al\/I) I'll be darnned if that isn't a space ship. All sideways in the sky. ‘VVhew! I'm pretty sure it is. John Hinds: VVhat? Did you see sornething up ‘ there? JG: Right there. Lower unintelligible. JI-I: That's wild. I know Peter-..I've never seen one but Peter has. JG: I've seen thern. June (Tyson) saw one when we played in VVatts (Los Angeles). JI-I: Oh yeah? JG: We came out of the stadiurn...the little place we had played and she said noncha— lantly, "Look at that spaceship going across there." And I looked and said, "Daxnned if it ain't" In broad daylight. It was zoorning, you know. Yeah, she saw. one. I've seen them though. Closer than I Want to be. (Laughs) That's right. About thirty feet. JI-I: This is all in Philadelphia rnostly? JG: Right, I saw it in Philly. Thirty feet over rny head. l\/Ioving at about...I couldn't even describe how slow it was going. It was going so slow. It was unbelievable. JI-I: And what did it look like? JG: Like a big disc. Disc form. All lighted up. Full of colors. ‘ 26 J H : Really? And it was quite large alright . JG: Yeah , it was quite large alright . PI-I: This during the daytirne? JG: No, this was at night. About three o'clock in the rnorning. I was back frorn this girl's house and I saw this object, you know, and I said, " Darrin! VVhat is this moving this slow?" And Inoving this slowly! You know? So there was a viaduct...where a train trestle...where the train that goes downtown runs, you know- That one. And so I say, "VVell, I'm going to lay right here and I'm going to watch this thing to see when it cornes over the trestle." And I stayed there about five to seven minutes and it never carne over- So I walked under the trestle and it had stopped. (Laughs) Now I said, "This really is sorne shit!" (Laughs) This thing stopped! VVhat!? I know I saw it in motion. It was rnoving when I saw it. VVhen I got on the trestle it was stationary. I said, "Oh shit! (Laughter) VVel1...I don't want to go to outer space with anybody but Sun Ra! If Sun Ra ain't going, I ain't going! And rnan, I lit out like a bat out of hell! I hit the concrete tile and was strokin'. (Laughter) I was running, 111811. I ran... Tyrone Hill: VVhere was that under? Shelton Avenue? JG: 1\/Iorton (Street). You know where that trestle is on 1\/Iorton? Right up that hill going to the projects. TI-I: Oh, OK. 27 Véiii-}E ~E %3?Z JG: Right up that hill. Right there. I ran all the Way frorn there. I'd say a block and a half, rnaybe two blocks to rny house. Be- cause I know they have a Way they can pro- bably take you up in a ray or sornething. JI-I: Oh yeah, that's for sure. JG: They have paralysis rays. All kinds of stuff like that. JI-I: If they're flying around in space, they got it. (Laughter) JG: So I got in the wind Jack. But I saw it. TI-I: That's heavy. JG: That was heavy! JI-I: Now, I've never seen one like I say. I know Peter has seen one. Peter I-Iinds: The thing I saw was at rny grandrnother's house when I was about thirteen years old and I woke up about two or three in the Inorning to the barking of four dogs in her backyard area. This is way out in the country in the rniddle of VVashing-— ton. Nothing but apple orchards as far as you can see and I was watching these dogs just going wi1d...going nuts down there and all of a sudden I noticed from a couple of rniles away this real bright, whiter than white light. Real intense. Just a srnall ball of light and it just really rnoved slowly for a couple of rninutes toward the area of the house. It was probably like maybe a hundred feet off the ground. Sorn-ething like that. It was a real 28 I JG: Parked in rny backyard and just hung srnall intense light. Axnazingly intense. JG: That's a scanner. PI-I: It carne within a half rnile or quarter mile and then disappeared. JG: That's a scanner- That's not actually a ship. See, they can see in everything- They can see into your house. They can see every- thing in that area with that little scanner. Now, I had three scanners corne outside my ﬁg house in broad daylight. They all looked like little balloons. But they were lit up in an iri-— descent light and they parked in my backyard in Chicago Ty. irzrrﬁ-'.~ TI-I: VVhat! ? there, you dig? And just observed my house and everything in the area. Those are scann— ers, not ships, you know. This was probably " .a little srnall one. But these were rather large. About the size of balloons. In fact, the next day the people from the rneterologist and all that. . .they reported that some weather balloons had been sighted in that area. But weather balloons do not stay stationary in one spot. For four hours. And eventually they started rising and then they rose up and, you know, looking at thern from the Earth, they looked just like stars. I saw thern. I stood there every rninute until they rose, Jack. They gradually rose on up and that's what they said. It was weather balloons. No weather balloons that I've ever seen rernain stationary without being tied. (Laughs) And they stayed in rny backyard for four hours. I've had quite a few experiences. 29 That's just a few of thern. PI-I: That's arnazing. JI-I: That is arnazing- JG: That was broad daylight- PI-I: Like I say, these dogs were just going Wild. They were going nuts. It was arnazing. And then I saw it, you know. JG: It rnight have been ernitting sorne sort of frequency, you know. They unintelligible sensitive to it. JI-I: That had to be it. PI-I: It was just a little, srnall, intense... JI—I: No light for rniles. JG: It's Inore like a probe or scanner. PH: Three or four Ininutes it was out there... JG: There are things that are rather heavy on this planet and people just don't know it. All kind of stuff like that is always constantly going on. JI-I: Any other incidents stand out in your rnind John? VVith the UFO? JG: Yeah. One night we were going to New York and we all saw three interrnediate ships getting in the rnother ship. They were going in and coming out. PH: This was several rniles in the sky? 30 JG: Yeah, it was quite a distance away from us, you know. But you could see them going in and out. I never will forget that. I mean it shook everybody in the car up ‘cause you could see them, you know. VVas three of thern. And it was a Inother‘ ship and two other ships on the side of them. And these three little ships going in and out of the rnother ship. Blew rny rnind Jack- (Laughs)- I'n1 telling you Jack- No lie. PI-1: I recently read a few articles in the New York Tirnes frorn a rnonth ago describing all these reports fI‘C)I'I1 people in VS/estchester County, New York. 1 nrA'<'.-var TI-I: VVas a lot of sightings. PI—-I: A lot of sightings. People were amazed. So Inany people have seen these things. JG: They're here with us. Adrnit it or not. l\/Ie and Jackson saw a gaseous spaceship one night. It was pink. It didn't have any kind of solidity to it whatsoever. It was the only pink cloud I've ever seen fifteen feet frorn the ground and going on the sarne level as us. It was gaseous. It’didn't have any forrn. That shook rne and Jackson up! I had never seen anything like that. I've seen them with a shape but this didn't really have a shape- It was gaseous. A pink blob like...a cloud Inass- It was going like this and it was only about fifteen feet off the ground. I said, "Daxnn, Jackson. VVhat kind of cloud is that?" This low and pink. It was heavy. Corning back frorn New York one night. To top it all... I rnay not say anything more about thern if I translate 1\/Iarshall Allen's and Pat Patrick's experience. I couldn't believe this shit. They 31 E ii 2: :“i_sé , ‘ iijamz m 4 %=w*%,%%~w"“ L 6%" V W V‘ * ‘V,’/' 4: 3 'n
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-38
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, iss. 41 (2001)
Author: Hinds, Peter (editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 2001-01-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: 1402-43; ;1, 4-in-:4-2.5,; RE SEAR SUN RA» H53. 2, 1935 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 SUN RA-0<T.1,19s6 . . . . . . , . . . . .10 SUN RA — SEPT. 26,1986 . . . . . . . . . . 17 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 41 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 2001 $5.00 « OUTSIDE U.S.: $6.00 CDAABII PRESS ‘ P.(). BOX 786 ' AAILLBRAE, CA 94030 E-MAIL: 0rnnis0nic@webt v.net VVEB SITE: vvvvvv.sunrarese0rch.c0rn 1 ( I ; I 3 E. . . n~rr|.=. Rvu aw J VVITI-I KEN KATOVVIK FEBRUARY 2, 1986 Ken Katowik: VVhat would you consider to be the rnajor influences on your music? ‘ Sun Ra: The Inajor influence has been the possibilities and potentials of the future- That's the Inajor influence. Of course that's the top thing. And the bottom of course the early Jazz rnusicians- All of them I'd say, particularly Fletcher Henderson because I always listened to Fletcher I-Ienderson as a teenager and even further back than that- I was practically fed on Fletcher I-Ienderson frorn the tirne in the c...
Show more1402-43; ;1, 4-in-:4-2.5,; RE SEAR SUN RA» H53. 2, 1935 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 SUN RA-0<T.1,19s6 . . . . . . , . . . . .10 SUN RA — SEPT. 26,1986 . . . . . . . . . . 17 SUN RA RESEARCH ISSUE 41 PUBLISHED BY OMNI PRESS EDITED BY PETER HINDS © 2001 $5.00 « OUTSIDE U.S.: $6.00 CDAABII PRESS ‘ P.(). BOX 786 ' AAILLBRAE, CA 94030 E-MAIL: 0rnnis0nic@webt v.net VVEB SITE: vvvvvv.sunrarese0rch.c0rn 1 ( I ; I 3 E. . . n~rr|.=. Rvu aw J VVITI-I KEN KATOVVIK FEBRUARY 2, 1986 Ken Katowik: VVhat would you consider to be the rnajor influences on your music? ‘ Sun Ra: The Inajor influence has been the possibilities and potentials of the future- That's the Inajor influence. Of course that's the top thing. And the bottom of course the early Jazz rnusicians- All of them I'd say, particularly Fletcher Henderson because I always listened to Fletcher I-Ienderson as a teenager and even further back than that- I was practically fed on Fletcher I-Ienderson frorn the tirne in the cradle. So therefore that's in rny Inind you see- I've been initiated over into the top Jazz rnan as far as I'm concerned in big bands. And that's why I like larger groups rather than trios and quartets. And of course you know there was Fats VValler, Art Taturn, Duke Ellington and a host of other unknown bands like Sunset Royals, Carolina Cotton Pickers, Felton's Florida Stoxnpers and Zack VVhite. The whole thing you see. I happened to have the full spectrum of Jazz- KK: VVhen did you first realize that you were of a different order of being? SR: I suppose frorn a child I was aware that I was here on this planet but my thoughts are different and not only rny thoughts but my feelings. And then there was this un- known thing that was always associated with rne- I had to be part of the unknown. The unknown on this planet is greater than the ,known, you see? So I was dealing with the unknow even to consider rnyself as unknown frorn the point of view I had to expand and magnify this "reach toward the unknown. And of course then I had some ESP experiences """'*"""~ """"='--'-=‘—~‘—‘=‘"A—"‘~”*-----«-‘-4<—r——e-—r>,-:~$ya....._..;.;:;«—- ‘;V‘:‘) 4“, _ _,._. . . .,"_+,«~.~xT===._:.;«.g;_._.‘...................,._... ...., ,.,__ __ of going into‘ outer space through what I call now an I suppose you would call thern that, energy corrider. That is like a bright spot- light shines on you and transmoleculerizes you into bearns of light and then you travel at the speed of light, you see, to other dirnensions. I've had that experience- I've had sorne’ other experiences too which would be totally ixnpossible in the realrn of reality like walking through a Wall or Walking through a tree or being told to do so likein a drearn state or a drearn quality but really_ not a drearn. And that. Way a person can be instructed for sornething else through drearns that they Wouldn't accept in so called reality. I've had that and then I've had’ a lot of strange things happen to me in the reality too to convince rne that We are surrounded by the unknown and that We have a lot of forces that really Want to help us to advance. Then there are sorne Inore forces on a sort of lower level that their part is like a football garne where you got sorneone to block you frorn reaching your goal. And that's the way it is. It's like a garne but I would say it's a cosrnic garne. And then you have to know who to Work with or which side you're on, you see‘? .And like a football garne- You have to know Whose side you're on, you have to have discipline, you have to work with your tearn. So you've got sornething like that that's not very clear, can't be explained exactly to people ‘cause they're not aware of it. But it's just like, for instance this shuttle they (NASA) been sending up- There were sorne forces trying to prevent that shuttle frorn being sent up. There Were sorne other forces that Were deterrnined that it should go up because they Wanted what did happen (Challenger shuttle exploding) to happen. 2 VVell, you see, people think that they're free on this planet. But they're not free, you see. And that's Why they're rnaking their big mistake because there are forces all around thern, invisible forces, unintelligible in the outer regions watching, some in the inner regions Watching, and they're actually surrounded. It's like, you know, being in school Where you have to learn. And that's the Way rnan is now. He has to learn and every now and then he needs to get hixn some tests (too see) how he's going to answer according to his experiences. And if they insist on holding onto sorne traditional things that are bad for them and don't rnagnify and really glorify the things that are really good that rnen and women who have done some wonderful things, they have to hold on to those who really did sornething. Now use thern as a foundation even though they rnight not have been succesful but in their lifetirne the Way they wanted to be- If they left any shred of beauty, that's what We have to use. If they left any shred of hope or faith We have to use that because definitely We can't stand still. VVe can't stand on the tread rnill any more. Because the reaches of outer space have touched people's irnaginations and that's the new frontier you see- A lot of rnusicians have been bogged down in what I rnight call conternpt for conternporary things and they seerningly can't go any further to create. That's bad because a planet cannot rnove any further than the rnusic ‘cause we hear rnusic all the time you see. But rny rnusic is totally different. I haven't rnade any big play to be commercially succesful or anything like that because I -was thinking about that people needed sornething else. Like I said before: The Arrny got a_ band, the Navy got a band, the Air Force got a band and all forces that are fighting for sornething have a band. VVell of course, people have to fight for sornething too. Unfortunately they never did have a band. So I would say people everyday are in a fight to survive- VVell you know, in any fight you need a band- That's what I would say about the.space prograrn at the NASA Center. They need a band, you see? They need to have some rnusic played when they sent that space shuttle up every tirne- Because it's done with rnusic. l\/Iusic can enlighten a person's spirit. It can bring forces to you that really will help you. But unfortunately a lot of govern- rnents have neglect(ed) rnusic you know, and tended to, to back the science brains instead of really also helping Inusicians. A very irnportant part of the hurnan scherne you see. Now at this point you see there rnight be sornething unintelligible until the governrnent recognizes rnusic ‘cause the French govern- rnent, the l\/Iinister of Culture, wanted rne to come up, over for two years, and develop a new type of rnusic for France- Now Inaybe that's the first tirne that ever happened where a governrnent would get that rnuch interested in creative rnusic. But I'rn really thrilled by the prospect and more than likely I will take it- And then they offered me a syrnphony orchestra to write, cornpose, whatever I want to. Have cornplete freedorn required with dancers—A whole different thing. The French really intend to back cultural things you see. AAnd that's where I corne in you see. Because I've already developed rnyself. The reason I've played the low profile is that I had to develop Inyself because so many people have coxne along (and) want to teach hurnanity (and) do sornething for thern and they failed. Because they didn't take long enough to develop thernselves- Rise thernselves up on a higher spiritual level where they'd be strong enough spiritually to do things despite the discouragernent of everyday. life- VVell, that's what this rnusic is about. I would say it's the people's band- Now in this respect—VVhen I say people I'rn considering leaders too be- cause they're people. So then it's for every- body. It's for the whole planet. It's for Arnerica too. But of course I've been sort of isolated in Anierica deliberately where I've had to develop rnyself. But outside of Arnerica I'rn headline news and I'rn on the TV and the ethnic newspapers give rne full coverage (and) rnagazines in Europe. Europe is very irnportant point because the cultural aspects of the west carne frorn over there you see. So to get to Europe and to change things over there or to put a few touches there it will widen their rnusic. It will reach Arnerica anyway. Everything in Arnerica reaches Europe.you know and Europe does cater to Arnerican rnusic and everything that cornes frorn over here. KK: I noticed a lot of your records are recorded over in Europe. SR: Yes and then I went to Egypt and touched down over there you rnight see us. KK: Yeah, I've got the one, you at the Baloon Theater. SR: Right. But since then I've been there and stayed two rnonths playing in a club there. And then I xnade a record for a Egyptian drurnrner narned Salah (Ragab) and We went_ to Arnerican Ernbassy (and) booked Ine into Greece in Athens and I played there. A record out too of that concert. But then I arn very well known in the East too although I haven't been anywhere East or the near East you rnight say except Egypt. And the only place I've been in Africa has been Nigeria- They know about rne there too. Now see, I never propelled Inyself forward ‘cause this is very advanced equations I'rn dealing with. I'rn not in a sense a philosopher. I'rn dealing with equations and the equations—If you deal with equations you got sornething valid- I'In deal- ing with equations. Like I rnean saying that for space travel you have to have another type of fuel you know. That kind of fuel is — too explosive you see. Of course it's the only thing they have now because they haven't thought beyond that point- But I know that concentrated Sun power, solar power, could do the sarne thing if they find out how to do it. If scientists could concentrate the solar rays. That couldvbe done. And it would be just as effective. Of course that takes a lot of different kind of rnachinery and a lot of study but not too Inuch if they have research and then there's other kind of power too that I was talking about in a niovie I rnade called Space Is the Place and that is rnusic power. KK: One of my most cherished Christrnas presents is a Inovie that rny wife got Ine on video tape, the one by Robert 1\/Iugge, Sun Ra: A Joyful Noise. SR: Yes. There's sorne Inore filrns out too that were done by sorne avant—garde filrn rnen and it's done in New York. I'll try to have that put on video tape too. But sound, you see, is very powerful- In fact I read sometime ago that the French governrnent had a weapon, a sound weapon that could really do things. Very strong- So therefore sound could be used to propel a ship. VVell, I .hope they get around to it ‘cause it's very dangerous (to) use that type of forces- Because that rocket they're ‘using, developed by the Gerrnans, was rnade to kill people, you see? VVell, it did kill sorne people so it performed it's work- But if another sort of thought was put to work of course it would work too. So I'rn over in what you call the rnusic departrnent. And it's about having experiences from outer space and ESP things that happened to rne. VVel1, I've really risen above this planet and people and they look very weak to me.‘ They all look weak, they all look sick, they all in need of some- thing, you see. But now when I play different places in Arnerica I'In gettingthe sarne re- sponse I get in Europe. So then this is a world rnusic that I'rn dealing with you know. The sarne expression and this expression is the feeling of happiness. And I'rn getting letters frorn people all over the world about when they hear us play. VVell, you got a lot of rnusicians and all of thern are excellent and OK if they're playing country and western or whatever they're playing. But the thing about it is it's what that rnusic represents you see? l\/Iine represent sorne——I wouldn't call it the evolution of the hurnan rnind. I'd call it sornething like cosrno evolution or something. KK: Gives us hope. SR: Yes, gives us hope and strength you see. Needs strength to feel that with all these bad things that's happened in history, well, they weren't necessary in the first place. Like George Gershwin said, It ain't necessarily so. 7 But it's like sornebody wrote a scenario for hurnanity and they're living that scenario. They're acting in a play. They have to have sornething added to that play or a extension of it. Like you're on a highway and you go on a ramp and get off of it. They need a rarnp. They got to get off this pathway they're on and get on another one. Of course they have to have the idea that they are part of the Ornniverse. They're really OII1I1i— beings. All they have to do is develop these different parts. Now the best way to do it is through Inusic but musicians have to also be ornni in the spirit you see- To be able to play that for people. And then they can feel. Once they begin to feel, that's the beginning of it. KK: You're band has been together for what, over thirty years now? SR5 Oh yeah. The nucleus of the band have and I've taught a lot of rnusicians and now I'm beginning to reach out and get some unintelligible I've taught- And heretofore I've used a lot of people that I was teaching, you know. l\/Iight say they Werenot as versed, you see, in tluings. But the ones who had the hardships with Ine in Chicago and different places like that unintelligible. l\/Iy band is rnostly cornposed of thern now and that _ rnakes it very strong because they feel the sarne way I do. Although they're not fully aware of what I'In talking about. That I'm talking about sornething very vast. But they feel that what I'm talking about is relevant. And that is irnportant if you got a band or group of people who feel that sornething is relevant in this kind of world where every- thing seerns chaotic and unintelligible of destruction. To have some people around you who have the hope and the faith of What you're talking about is really necessary and can be potentially succesful. It's very wonderful indeed and therefore that Inakes this band very unique ‘cause they weren't with me for rnoney. So they for some unknown reasons, they're with rne because of sornething that can't be explained- <oNvE RSATION VVITI-I JOI-Ihl I-IIINIIJS AND PETER I-III~lI>$ OCTOBER 1, 1986 OAKLAND, (A Sun Ra: And the first thing: I'In going to get I the hillbillies. I got thern already. I got the hillbillies and I got the rednecks. I played up in New England and the rednecks said, "Treat you pretty good, didn't We? VVe red necks alright." I said, "Yes." (laughter) Up in yankee territory. VVent up there and now I'm getting ready to go to the mountain people in California which everyone says don't go and play for thern. I say I'rn going to play for them. Peter Hinds: Up in Garberville. SR: The rnountain people. They got a terrible reputation. I'm going to the mountain people when? PI-I: l\/Ionday . SR: And they rnountain people. l\/Iost of thern, I hear, are vets. And they got tiger traps and bear traps in the rnountain(s). Trap people that corne up there that not invited. And they unintelligible and it's terrible. But one of thexn carne to New York and heard us and invited us to play. VVornan's voice: How nice, how very nice. Sun Ra: The booking agent said, "Don't go up there." (SR replies) "VVhy shouldn't I play for the mountain people?" (Agent replies) "Terrible, they're terrible." I said, "But they're vvarrn like us. I'rn going to play for the rnountain people." Told the fellas, "Don't Walk out in the woods, got tiger traps." They tell Ine the FBI got signs (saying) don't venture in their territory. They got them (traps) basically set for the FBI and CIA- 10 4» ~ '35»-‘K-‘L + 1; ‘ o. .~<- v»: Q.‘\ *tv‘4b.~'v.\. now I hear. I hear they (are Vietnarn) vets and (have) their own little private estates and’ parks and stuff like that so they don't want the CIA and FBI‘ up in there- Set bear traps and tiger traps. And we stay right at the hotel and We not going...If any of thern (Arkestra rnernebers) get caught in the tiger traps.-.It's too bad (laughter). I'm not, going out there to help thern. —_—j——:—_—.__—p———.——j..:-——1—.:.—-——————-.j——-:---1—————-gjjj1-.2--——1————-pa-__.:.—___——.—j-—— (Between sets at New George's in San Rafael, California. Carlos Santana enters the roorn.) Carlos Santana: Excuse rne l\/Ir. 1\/Iystery, rny naxne is R/Ir. Santana and... Sun Ra: Corne up closer. CS: And I'd like to offer you my deepest gratitude for all you have done to illurne and- transforrn and elevate the consciousness of humanity through rnusic...(spoken softly) SR: Speak a little closer. CS: I say I would like to offer you my deepest gratitude for all you have done to illurne, transforrn and elevate the con- sciousness of humanity through your music and through the rnusic of your brothers. I'm very grateful and I'd like to let you know that I aspire to invite you and the rnusic of Olatunji and perhaps do a concert with three bands sometime in the future. And if you would be interested I would like to have your phone nurnber. SR: Alright. (Asks sorneone) VVill you get 11 his..-your nurnber- And he'll give you rnine. CS: Thank you Sun Ra. SR: And now we getting ready to go...V\/hen we leave here we're going to Salt Lake City up there in l\/Iorrnon country. Then we keep on to ‘VVashington DC, then we headed to Florence and Rotne- And we be going there about a week. VVe supposed to go to France but due to the atrnosphere in France--.I don't think we're going there you know. I want to go Inyself. I think some fellows in the band are afraid, but I'm not afraid. I'd go there. I can feel that they kind of not pleased with the idea of going to Paris- (chuckles) CS: VVe walk in grace I'_In sure. VVe walk in grace and I'In sure the band's got protection and divine protection . SR: Oh yeah, I know I have. But you see, a lot of rnen don't have their shields up you know.- And they're sort of coxnplacent and they don't realize they got to have their shields up with colors and perfurnes and vibrations and clothes. The right kind of colors‘. And they just walking around like they protected but they aren't. They got to put their shields up "cause these forces attack when they see a person with the wrong color on for their spirit. Everyday they got to be changing colors according to...Sornething to counteract other kind of colors. VVhen they put on the right colors, then their spirit just vibrate and harrnonize and put protection around. But people just put on anything, any color. It's dangerous- So they have to be taught- They have to be taught to be’ obedient and to listen so they can get used 12 _u‘a4.u.-nu .-.1—.—_. to being obedient to their spirit and-you know.-.But it's alrnost where it's too late. About one Ininute to rnidnight. CS: It's wonderful to meet you and again my gratitude for your rnusic. SR: Be waiting to hear from you. OK, alright. (Carlo s Santana exits) .B——._—____.—:.B_—-.:——.——-__...-_.—————.—-..-.-.——.___....____—._—-__-_———.B.__—.—_—.—.B..___.._._.B..:.-_—.__ PI-_-I: It was nice hearing Space Aura. SR: Oh yeah, Space Aura is. . . It's a sleeper. It's very. . .It's talking. I think I'll play it when I go . . .I really like it slow too . JI-I: 'Cause you do a fast version from the fifties. There's a couple versions. One's fast and one's real slow. Oh it's beautiful. SR: Right. That's the thing about my comp- ositions; They can be played both ways. They be played so fast you think the musicians- But you know, it's reached a stage where some rnusicians, if they play them Wrong, they get weaker and weaker. That's right. Some they get stronger and stronger. So you see, this is another kind of music. PI-—I: Billy Bang—I heard an interview last night on Art Sato's show. SR: Oh yeah, Billy Bang. You should hear hirn play with us. PI-I: VVel1, he was talking about you on this 13 3- interview last night. SR: VVhat did he say? He Vsay he's going to be out here around this tirne? PI-I: He's back east right now but Art Sato played a segrnent of this long interview he did with Billy Bang and Billy Bang was talking about you in this segrnent he played and he said, "Sun Ra knows so Inuch and has got so Inuch Inusic that I know he's taking it easy on rne." (Sun Ra laughs) He goes, "I'rn having trouble keeping up and I know he's taking it easy on rne." You know, yeah that was great. So he was just so pleased to...I-Ie says he wants to establish himself but he's like torn’ cause he wants to play more with you. (Sun Ra laughs) And he's really working on rnaking roorn for both now- So it's very nice you know. SR: Yeah, he did say everytirne he play (with the Arkestra), "I got to corne to Philadelphia and stay with you all but you did sornething else tonight. I don't know what it.-." One .night we was playing, just he and I and then he stopped. PI-I: At horne? SR: No, on the job in New York. And you know, everybody laid out and I played (and) he's playing and all at once he stopped. But I asked hinri, I said why did you stop? (BB replied) "VVe11, it went...it Was going so (fast) ...I didn't know what to do." (Sun Ra laughs) I said what you were playing were beautiful. He said, "Yeah, but I just reached a stage (where) I had to listen to you instead." So...It really is branching out. In fact, «m:4.ax.xuu 14 ‘cause the piano player (Graharn Connah) last place We played (Santa Cruz), rnaybe he Wasn't even twenty, he say, "Yeah, oh tonight you played all rny favorite nurnbers and my favorite nurnber is Irnages and you played that . " PI-I: VVhere Was this now? In Santa_ Cruz? Last night? SR: Santa Cruz. And he said—"Yeah Irnagesi." And he said, "I been trying to...I been trying to play that. I listen to it and I try to write it and I think I got it...I can't...It's sorne—— thing where I can't catch it." I said Well yeah, it's that kind of nurnber. It offers so Inany potentials (that) when you playing it you hear sornething else. And I said I've vvritten it several tirnes over. Another way to write it. Other chords corne in there and they all sound good. I said it's one of those songs. I got another one like that. It's-.. They Plan (To Leave). That song- The bass can be a lot of things. It's intriguing. Can't tell What key it's in either. Although it seerns to be in a certain key, when you write it then you not satisfied. ,'Cause it's intangible. It's an intangible song. And I got a lot of songs like this; Intangible- They don't even... They're not in any Earth key. I created thern at the house and I got to put them out but I'd have to teach the band over. I'd have to teach them over because they lost the feel. See, they rnight play the notes but the feeling is sornething else. And I'rn going to get back to that. But it's difficult because I go and get sorne rnusicians and they could be just full of stearn and ready and they get Weaker. Every night they get weaker, weaker and weaker. That's the reason I got my electronics...And 15 -4 " "V" ” - v . :.--.«u« 1.- I got to get soxne Inore- Five or six of thern and then I'll play that. I have to keep on Inoving- I have a Inessage to get explained. I have to do it whether the rnusicians can Inake it or not. I'1n not supposed to stand still. But I can do it and then you can hear it. Hit one note, barn! And you wait a little. Another note, barn! And if you hit that note too soon there's no rnessage there. That's how delicate it is. That note has to be...That's the reason John Cage has got his watch...You'1l see hirn chant. And he wait (and) suddenly he'll do it like that. But I'm not doing it like that. I'll do it...I'rn doing it natural. That rnakes it more difficult. Now it's possible he can take his thing-.-I-Ie can teach sornebody else who has got their watch. I can't, I don't have a watch. Every tixne I get one I lose it anyway. (Laughter) But I can say that people are listening rnore intently at what I'm doing and what I'rn saying. They listening. 16 --:.wa.a_-A-nun CON‘/E RSATION w|1'H JOHN HINDS AND PETER I-Ill~lDS SEPTEMBER 26, 1935 Sun Ra: I carne frorn a place where people were more social I suppose. Birmingham- They had a lot of social clubs there. I rnean not bars and things like that. I rnean actual individuals- They didn't have a building or nothing like that. They just had their different social clubs and they'd have functions. Each club would have sornething twice a year (and) invite the other clubs. And they'd be dressed. And that's the way I was raised up. I would play- with thern and they be dressed. They'd have their stuff on. Each club would be trying to outdo the other in clothes and then they'd have sornething like a fund raising thing. They'd have two things: The one they wouldn't dress but the rnain one was sornething else. It was beautiful...I never played in any bars or nothing...I played just for thern. So then I knew a lot of dance nurnbers. They knew all those Inusical unintelligible. They danced...A nice aristocratic social...That was the way it was. And they'd have thern every week. Every week you'd go to probably go to two affairs 'cause some affairs were, like, the lesser ones. They had their affairs too. They were just building thernselves up- But they had nice affairs. It was beautifu1-The more I think about it the more arnazed I arn that I was in that environrnent you know. John I-Iinds: So there was a "lot of work for. i you in Birmingham. You were always .playing and playing and playing - SR: Yeah. JI-I: And like you were saying the other night, ‘it wasn't all for black folks too. There was that white guy who phoned you 17 up and the black rnusician union said you don't want hirn (Sun Ra) and he gphoned you back and said, "No, no I do Want you ‘cause you are the best band we've got." SR: Yeah, that's What he said- That's what happened. But I had a lot of jealousies you know. Had the best band Without question. l\/Iade the other bands jealous ‘cause you see, they had good bands but they didn't have nobody that could arrange back then. That's what did the trick: It was the head arrange- rnents. They couldn't play thern Without rne so that Was it and that's the way it is today- If I let sornebody have some of these ar’rangernents...If I'rn not there..-Nobody plays piano the Way I'rn playing it, see. Their touch is different and therefore the arrangernents Wouldn't sound--.It's just like Duke (Ellington), you know. Since he been gone they haven't really been able to get a piano player that could rnake the band sound lik-e he did. JI-I: Yeah, Well, he had a special touch just like you. Just one note. And that's kind of funny on a piano that's a rnechanical instru- rnent- You're not even touching the string but yet, bang and you can tell it's Duke. You can tell it's you, you know. That doesn't corne over night. SR: Yeah, well it's out in the open now. People can compare. They didn't have nothing to cornpare or they couldn't discrirninate. They had to go by what sornebody else said- Now they don't have to do that no Inore. They hear for thernselves- JI-I: Did you ever do any recordings with 18 '— "§.$«""”°"' .; !.‘Nﬁ’V" " =‘” ’ - wwuvn-cc». o . :-- um tho se bands ? SR: VVe11, for two years did soniething for Ripple Tobacco every day. ' JI-I: That's a cornpany that's.-.I don't think around any rnore. SR2. Deep South. day, noon. It was on the radio every Peter I-Iinds: Live broadcast? SR: Live Rhythrn and Blues broadcast- I was the arranger for thern and playing with thern. PH: Late 30's? SR: Sornething like that. JI-I: And that was a broadcast out of Birrn— ingharn? SR: It rnight have been broadcast in other cities too. JI-I: So you'd go downtown to the radio station? SR: Every day. JI-I: That's some experience. . SR: Yeah, and the fellows in the quartet, they couldn't read, you know, rnusic. So I had to arrange for them by ear you might say. JI-I: And then they'd have to rnernorize it? —.v.:.~.<.u .u'a:a~1 rz SR: Yeah, they did a good job- JI-I: That's What's arnazing about wsorne of those Fletcher Henderson things. Head arrangernents, you know, that are just..- They're so intricate and beautiful. SR: Fantastic . JI-I: And they're head arrangements! VVasn't any rnusic until... SR: They'd hurn the parts. JI-I: Is that how it would go back then? I-Iurn it. SR: Yeah, I mean when I first started to playing nobody had to tell rne too rnuch. I'd hear sornething (and) play it. And they'd put the harrnony to it. That's the Way true Jazz is done. Like that- The World just catching up to rne ‘cause they had a lot of chrornatics in there that seerningly didn't belong in the chord. That's the reason Jazz is different. ‘Cause they Wasn't learning it in school- They played What they heard and they heard strange harrnonies. And that's the reason Fletcher sounds so good because they got these harrnonies in there- They ain't like nobody elses. The harrnonies are fantastic. JI-I: That always arnazes rne though when you check it out. That's a head arrangernent! And it's so cornplex and so together. It's arnazing. SR: They could write just for the first alto part- And everybody else play their part. They'd‘- play the harrnony. It's beautiful. 20 JH: VVou1d that be kind of a standard approach? VVould the tenor think I'll take the third? Or would they just listen and just add it in and work it out? VVas it some kind of arrangement concept? SR: It was sorne kind of feeling like they had this closed circuit of rnusicians who played that way. It was a closed circuit. Not every-— body could fit in that band. They rnight be just starting but if they had the feeling Fletcher would hire thern.-.That's the reason he kept rne. ‘Cause I was doing something else. Stuff Srnith said so too- Colernan Hawkins too. They said I was doing some- thing different. And they said they couldn't understand why I hadn't been discovered. That's what Stuff said. He said, "One day they will. But I'In arnazed that they haven't-" One tirne I was playing piano for a girl who was taking an audition (for) John Harnxnond. JH: Is that right? And John Hammond let you slip through his fingers? SR: I was playing something under her for her to sing and all at once he jumped up and carne over and looked at me and said, "Play that again." And he almost woke up. He didn't wake up. VVell, he didn't hire the singer. JI-I: And he didn't discover you and elevate you to..-? SR: He heard sornething and he was sur- prised. Sornething I played. So that's the way it's standing now. JI-I: Now where was that? 21 —, ~ ,»,- «.—».—.-«Y.-u.>_~.—: —~ — zu.u.-z.~rnnn-‘wax-nus SR: That was in New York City- Down in the Village. Spring Street or sornething like that. In Ornette Colernan's place. JI-I: So you're talking about Inaybe 1960 or '61. SR: VVe1l, it was when Ornette Colernan had his studio in New York- It was then. He tried. In a sense he didn't make it in New York. He unintelligible like the Guggenheirn (I\/Iuseuxn) and, you know, art places. But as far as the general public is concerned, unin- teeligible. ‘Cause he never did play places like Sweet Basil. But he changed. I hear he's changing over to Rock and different things now. I heard that. I don't know how true it is. 22
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Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-41
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, supplement
Author: Hinds, Peter (Editor), Hinds, John (Editor)
Publisher: Omni Press
Date: 1988-1999
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Prospectus: Occasional un-numbered supplements of the Sun Ra Research publications (1988-1999).
Notes: Occasional un-numbered supplements of the Sun Ra Research publications (1988-1999).
Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, supplement (June 5, 1998)
Author: Hinds, Peter (Author) (editor), Hunter, Tommy (Author) (editor)
Author: Hinds, Peter
Publisher: Peter Hinds
Date: 1998-06-05
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Notes: Original digital object name: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup-02
Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup-02
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, supplement (October 29, 1988)
Author: Hinds, Peter (Author) (editor), Hinds, John (Author) (editor)
Author: Hinds, Peter
Publisher: Peter Hinds
Date: 1988-10-29
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: CONVERSATION WITH SUN RA,JOHN HINDS AND PETER HINDS . . . . . ... . . . . .. OCTOBER 29,l988...PALM'S PLAYHOUSE...DAVIS,CALIFORNIA . . . . . . . . . . .. SUN RA:I'M SORRY.TOOK UP YOUR(JOHN ORE)TIME. JOHN HINDS:GREAT!IT'S BEEN TOO LONG. SR:SOME PEOPLE ARE MY FRIENDS AND SOME ARE MY ENEMIES. JH:IT'S JUST GREAT TO HEAR YOU,THOUGH.I MEAN,IT'S BEEN ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF. SR:WELL,WE'RE MOVING FORWARD. JH:OH.I KNOW YOU'RE MOVING FORWARD ALL THE TIMElIT'S LIKE ALL OVER THE WORLD NOW. SR:WE'VE BEEN GETTING TO A PLACE(WHERE)NOT ALL MUSICIANS(JOHN ORE)CAN PLAY WITH ME IN THIS BAND.I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD THEY ARE OR HOW LONG I'VE BEEN KNOWING THEM.THEY JUST AIN'T GOING TO FIT. THAT'S IT.AND I AIN'T GOING TO FIGHT IT.I'M NOT GOING TO TRY AND CHANGE THEM.I'LL GET SOMEBODY ELSE. JH:YOUR MUSIC IS SO FANTASTIC,MUSICIANS SHOULD BE LINING UP TO PLAY WITH YOU. SR:WELL,HE'S(JOHN ORE)A DEAD MAN.HE JUST SAY HE AIN'T...
Show moreCONVERSATION WITH SUN RA,JOHN HINDS AND PETER HINDS . . . . . ... . . . . .. OCTOBER 29,l988...PALM'S PLAYHOUSE...DAVIS,CALIFORNIA . . . . . . . . . . .. SUN RA:I'M SORRY.TOOK UP YOUR(JOHN ORE)TIME. JOHN HINDS:GREAT!IT'S BEEN TOO LONG. SR:SOME PEOPLE ARE MY FRIENDS AND SOME ARE MY ENEMIES. JH:IT'S JUST GREAT TO HEAR YOU,THOUGH.I MEAN,IT'S BEEN ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF. SR:WELL,WE'RE MOVING FORWARD. JH:OH.I KNOW YOU'RE MOVING FORWARD ALL THE TIMElIT'S LIKE ALL OVER THE WORLD NOW. SR:WE'VE BEEN GETTING TO A PLACE(WHERE)NOT ALL MUSICIANS(JOHN ORE)CAN PLAY WITH ME IN THIS BAND.I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD THEY ARE OR HOW LONG I'VE BEEN KNOWING THEM.THEY JUST AIN'T GOING TO FIT. THAT'S IT.AND I AIN'T GOING TO FIGHT IT.I'M NOT GOING TO TRY AND CHANGE THEM.I'LL GET SOMEBODY ELSE. JH:YOUR MUSIC IS SO FANTASTIC,MUSICIANS SHOULD BE LINING UP TO PLAY WITH YOU. SR:WELL,HE'S(JOHN ORE)A DEAD MAN.HE JUST SAY HE AIN'T GOT NO FEELING.ANYBODY GOT NO FEELING...HE'S WORRIED ABOUT HIS WIFE.HE WASN'T BORN WITH NO WIFE.HE'S SUPPOSED TO PLAY HIS INSTRUMENT RE- GARDLESS.HE JUST SAY HE AIN'T GOT NO FEELING.ANYBODY WITHOUT FEELING IS A DEAD MAN. JH:THAT'S TRUE. SR:PEOPLE GOT FEELING.HE'S A MUSICIAN.HE CAN'T LISTEN.IT'S COME DOWN TO THE BOTTOM LINE.I'M NOT UNHAPPY ABOUT ANYTHING.I'M PLAYING HAPPINESS.GOT A WORLD FULL OF TROUBLE AND IT AIN'T MY TROUBLE.I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT.I'M TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE THAT THERE IS SUCH A THING AS HAPPINESS.I GOT SOMEONE ON THAT BAND- STAND WHO'S UNHAPPY(JOHN ORE)PERSONALLY AND OTHERWISE.THEY GET IN MY WAY.I PLAYED MORE BASS THAN HIM. JH:I HEARD THAT:(LAUGHS)BUT YOU PLAY MORE BASS THAN ANYBODY. YOU'RE THE BEST BASS PLAYER.ANYwAY.(SUN RA LAUGHS)YOU JUST PLAY BASS AND SWING THE WHOLE HOUSE DOWN. SR:Ul-I HUM. JH:AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. SR:THE BAND,TOO.THEY ALL PERKED UP WHEN I BEGAN TO PLAY BASS... JH:NO KIDDING! SR:THE WAY HE OUGHT TO BE PLAYING. JH:THAT'S TRUE.I KNOW THAT'S WHAT YOU HIRED HIM FOR.THAT'S WHAT HE'S HERE FOR. SR:BUT WE DID TWO NIGHTS WITHOUT HIM. JH:REALLY? A SR:AND STANDING OVATIONS.SEATTLE... JH:HE DIDN'T MAKE IT? SR:NO.PROBLEM.HE GOT A LOT OF PROBLEM.THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE CAN'T BE...THEY CAN'T BE HELPED.I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DOING.I WAS TALKING TO THE GIRL ABOUT THAT.SHE SAID THAT WAS TRUE.SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE FRIENDLY;SHE TRIED TO HELP THEM BUT THEY COULDN'T BE HELPED SHE SAID.SHE HAD TO TURN THEM LOOSE.I SAID.'YEAH.IT'S REACHED THAT POINT.'A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP HAVE BEEN HELPED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND AND ARE SPIRITUALLY AWAKE.AND THEY JUST TOOK IT FOR GRANTED.NOW THEY WANT TO BE FREE AND OUT THERE BY THEMSELVES AGAINST THE WHOLE WORLD,AGAINST THE COSMOS AND THINK THEY CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT THOSE OF US WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP THEM.LET THEM BE LIKE THAT.I'M NOT GOING TO TRY TO...FIVE BILLION PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET AND SOMEWHERE SOMEBODY NEEDS ME. JH:YOU SEE A LOT OF THEM TONIGHT AND THEY KNOW IT.THEY LOVE THAT MUSIC.THEY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.HONESTY.HOW MUCH DO THEY GET THESE DAYS?THAT'S AT A PREMIUM. SR:I'M PLAYING SINCERE.I DON'T HAVE NO UNINTELLIGABLE,NO PROBLEM. I'M DEALING WITH SOMETHING ELSE THERE.I DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT.IF EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD DID THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS. YOU GOT A LOT OF PROBLEMS.YOU GOT A LOT OF PRIDE.LOT OF UNINTELL- IGIBLE.I REALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE SENT FOR HIM 'CAUSE I GOT MY OTHER BASS PLAYER UP THERE THAT DOESN'T KNOW AS MUCH BUT HE FITS.(JOHN) ORE CAN PLAY BUT HE GOT THEM OTHER THINGS IN THE WAY.SOMETHING IS ALWAYS IN THE WAY. “ JH:PERSONAL PROBLEMS.THAT'S Too BAD. SR:HE DRAWS NEGATIVE THINGS TO ME. JH:soME PEOPLE DO THAT. SR:THEY DRAW THAT TO THEM LIKE MAGNETS.AND IF SOMETHING NICE COME ALONG THEY DON'T EVEN RESPECT IT. JH:THEY DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE IT.I'VE KNOWN PEOPLE LIKE THAT. SR:I TURN HIM LOOSE.THEN HE BE CALLING ME UP.FIVE OR SIX TIMES A DAY.'CAUSE HE'S REALLY ALONE.YOU KNOW.AND HE FEELS THAT AND THEN HE CALLS ME UP AND I SAY I'LL TRY HIM AGAIN.HE DONE PLAY FOR TOP \s..¢.\.v.s\\\.\.x. SUN RA AND JOHN HINDS...SEPTEMBER 1986 MABUHAY GARDENS...SAN FRANCISCO,CA.... PHOTO :PETER HINDS
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Notes: Original digital object name: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup-01
Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup-01
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: Sun Ra research, supplement (undated)
Author: Hinds, Peter (Author) (editor), Hinds, John (Author) (editor)
Author: Hinds, Peter
Publisher: Peter Hinds
Date: 1999-01-01
Place published: Millbrae, California, United States
Text: JH:Somethidg like Queer Notions is such a uas§ccpg§ce4and.;.f* ' SR:I was ‘piayingiizihait \ . i * i -- I. is JJHc$wezfe7yo’uy? A i 7 ‘RESEARCH 4SR:ThatTs‘right.I:was playing the sace,,.ana it sounded just riﬂe ” ' F1etcher‘Henderson.I-didnft have it...it wasn't instrunentated ,_ exact1y_1ike FIetcher;But it was there,If you heard the whole A sound it was there.rhe‘notes'were_there.But now i'm instrumen- h.tating exactly the way,the*way he had it.By according note by ~“i_ note.Not.just-writing because-of the chord,but.sound;Especia11yr ~ ,wasnft_no e flat ninth. A‘did a lot hf chromatics.And even though.maybe the-chord'night'bef» e.f1at~ninth,within that he'd be doing a lot of things that" JH;You nean altered notes;h1I these other notesgii dSR:Aitered notes was over_inithere.ﬁe'd be moving chromatica1iy°¥ and youfd have to have exactly the way he'd move it. ’JH:Now,how about something iike Queer Notions that has,likegi"&quo...
Show moreJH:Somethidg like Queer Notions is such a uas§ccpg§ce4and.;.f* ' SR:I was ‘piayingiizihait \ . i * i -- I. is JJHc$wezfe7yo’uy? A i 7 ‘RESEARCH 4SR:ThatTs‘right.I:was playing the sace,,.ana it sounded just riﬂe ” ' F1etcher‘Henderson.I-didnft have it...it wasn't instrunentated ,_ exact1y_1ike FIetcher;But it was there,If you heard the whole A sound it was there.rhe‘notes'were_there.But now i'm instrumen- h.tating exactly the way,the*way he had it.By according note by ~“i_ note.Not.just-writing because-of the chord,but.sound;Especia11yr ~ ,wasnft_no e flat ninth. A‘did a lot hf chromatics.And even though.maybe the-chord'night'bef» e.f1at~ninth,within that he'd be doing a lot of things that" JH;You nean altered notes;h1I these other notesgii dSR:Aitered notes was over_inithere.ﬁe'd be moving chromatica1iy°¥ and youfd have to have exactly the way he'd move it. ’JH:Now,how about something iike Queer Notions that has,likegi"" . augmented chords and then Red“A11en is playing a diminished »-scaleloyerlit; SR§ThatFs r1§nt2we11,tney did play his sound;Like-the other night and we was playing and Tommy Turrentine played the most" c_amazing solo.That was where this spirit thing jump in there. Bing!And he was playing this thing and then_one night the.trom- bone player was playing something(and the spirit)jumped up; 1 Bing1And that's when i can tell when the creative forces jumps over there and take over there,I always play the same way with ‘the same ﬁeeling when the creative forces take over.when thei _ that is another story. band reaches a certain point the creative forces join us and] _ they p1ay.It's a romance of two worlds you might say.They play. They play the instruments.And then,you know,not everybody(is) ’ priviliged to hear that;They'd have to spend time..,1ike Randy4 Weston say.No,or Sunny Murray(means Sunny Murray)say,sometimesy* i(SunyRa)hook up with the cosmos;And then out of the cosmos . ~ come this sound;And then that is.1ike;food for peop1e.when they’. hear that-sound.It's’en1ightning,it's encouraging.Like a musician’ told me last night;That when we p1ayed,it made him have faith-‘ again.Faith in peop1e.That's what he said.So,now you see that,
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Notes: Original digital object name: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup-03
Geography: Millbrae (Calif.)
Subjects: Sun Ra--Periodicals, Sun Ra--Interviews, Hinds, Peter--Interviews, Sun Ra Arkestra--Periodicals, Jazz--Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-jsr-res-sup-03
Is part of: Sun Ra Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: The new day
Author: Father Divine (author)
Author: Father Divine
Publisher: New Day Publishing Co.
Date: 1937-1940
Place published: New York, N.Y.
Prospectus: A weekly periodical published by the Father Divine Peace Mission beginning in 1937. This website currently contains vol. 1, no. 19 (July 20, 1937) - vol. 4, no. 52 (Dec. 26, 1940).
Notes: Digital resource provided by the Hamilton College Library, Clinton, New York
Notes: A weekly periodical published by the Father Divine Peace Mission beginning in 1937. This website currently contains vol. 1, no. 19 (July 20, 1937) - vol. 4, no. 52 (Dec. 26, 1940).
Geography: Harlem (New York, N.Y.)
Subjects: Peace Mission Movement -- Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-fdi-tnd
Is part of: Father Divine Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: The spoken word
Author: A. Honaeel Mediratas (editor)
Publisher: The California Eagle
Date: 1934-1936
Prospectus: A weekly newspaper published by the International Peace Mission Movement founded by Reverend Major Jealous Divine (Father Divine), of Harlem, New York. Published from 1930-1950. This website contains vol. 1, no. 1 (October 20, 1934) - vol. 3, no. 20 (December 26, 1936). Vol. 3, nos. 20-81 are in preparation.
Notes: A weekly newspaper published by the International Peace Mission Movement founded by Reverend Major Jealous Divine (Father Divine), of Harlem, New York. Published from 1930-1950. This website contains vol. 1, no. 1 (October 20, 1934) - vol. 3, no. 20 (December 26, 1936). Vol. 3, nos. 20-81 are in preparation.
Geography: Harlem (New York, N.Y.), United States
Subjects: Peace Mission Movement -- Periodicals, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-fdi-spw
Is part of: Father Divine Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

Title: World echo
Author: Father Divine (Author)
Author: Father Divine
Publisher: World Echo Publishing Company
Date: 1934
Place published: New York (N.Y.)
Prospectus: A weekly periodical published by the World Echo Publishing Company beginning in 1934. This website currently contains vol. 1, no. 19 (January 6, 1934) - vol. 1, no. 15 (April 14, 1934).
Notes: Digital resource provided by the Hamilton College Library, Clinton, New York;
Notes: A weekly periodical published by the World Echo Publishing Company beginning in 1934. This website currently contains vol. 1, no. 19 (January 6, 1934) - vol. 1, no. 15 (April 14, 1934).
Subjects: Peace Mission Movement -- Newspapers, Communal living--United States--Periodicals
Identifier: yhm-spe-wecho
Is part of: Father Divine Collection, Communal Societies Collection, Hamilton College Library Digital Collections

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